Discussion of WWII

[Gandalf]

In Russian. My parents were forbidden to speak Estonian in school (though the law wasn't strict) and they had to revere Lenin as the "Greatest revolutionary".
To the "upper class" of the Communist society, yes. Neither of my parents were given any benefits whatsoever. My father's friend was sent to clean up Chernobyl after the accident and his health is still completely f**ked up, it's a wonder he's not dead or sterile.

If you find it such a bad thing then why deny Russians their language now?
Free healthcare in the Soviet Union was for all, and at least in Russia there still is free health care.
Anyone denying that is a liar.

My father himself was sent to Siberia for two years to build a missile launch facility for the USSR government.

Means he was pretty high skilled if he was working on a secret base.

We're getting plenty of tourists these days as well. Have you ever been to Tallinn in the summer? It's quite difficult to find any Estonians on the street.

Because you are easy with giving visa's to Russians. Though I wonder why they visit people who claim to hate them.

A desperate move with the hopes of preserving our independence. Since that turned out to be completely impossible, we chose the lesser of two evils.
The EU has helped us get our economy up and running pretty damn good. They've done more for us in 8 years than the Russians did in  45.
I am aware of the numerous sanctions and the fact that the EU is quite unstable right now. Nothing we can do about that.

Actualy it was our only hope on once belonging to the German Reich.

[JayL]

To the "upper class" of the Communist society, yes.

No Soviet Estonia state would have survived if the population was not being given any satisfaction. Which brings your argument down.

[Pandalink]

Stalin was a saint compared to Hitler.

In what way? Care to expand?
Stalin was easily one of the worst people to have ever lived.

Why do I see Russians standing up for Stalin but no Germans standing up for Hitler? That's a good arguement.

Nobody should ever realistically stand up for someone like Hitler. Indeed, nobody should stand up for Stalin either, for the same reasons.

Also, communism < fascism any day.

[JDC]

I see the word "Communism" is used interchangeably with "Socialism" here. Soviet Russia never achieved true Communism, but stayed in Socialism, which is theoretically the "transitional state towards True Communism".

Communism is about removing class barriers and making sure the population have what they need as opposed to the rich-poor system prevalent in Capitalism. Ironically, Heaven in Christianity is an example of Communism (since regardless of if you are rich or poor, you will be living in bliss for eternity), meaning all "capitalist" christian states were worshiping a religion with Communism as its end goal. For those who will argue that there are class divisions in Heaven, I highly doubt you could live in eternal bliss if you were "poor" in the afterlife.

The only difference between the end goals of Socialism and Christianity is that the former achieves Communism on earth, while the latter ensures Communism after death.


As for Stalin, even if compared to Hitler, he is no Saint.

Both of them ordered the execution of millions, the majority of which had no plausible charge.
Both of them were paranoid against those closest to them, with Stalin constantly executing his high officials and Hitler turning against his closest officials.
Both of them had cults of personality.
Both of them were loathed (and respected) after their time; Khrushchev enacted a policy of destalinization while Germany had denazification.

What differs among them is who they fought alongside in the war. If the war dragged on and Hitler won it in the end, we would be seeing Stalin as the most hated dictator in the world instead of Hitler; history is written by the victors of the war.

[Ratko Gavrilovic]

In what way? Care to expand?
Stalin was easily one of the worst people to have ever lived.

Hitler had a wicked ideology, he thought that Jews were the evil in the world and that he was doing something for the Lord to wipe them out, killing millions of Jews in the process. Not only Jews were killed but also crippled people, homosexuals and so on.
His ideology also states that the Aryans (blond hair blue eyes) was the perfect kind of human.

Stalin?
He didn't make a move before being forced to.

[Dolfagr]

They're not comparing them, but their actions which have similarities to be honest.

[Gandalf]

When Stalin came to power he inherited a country in big trouble. Due to the revolution most of the people who were leaders were killed or fled. What was left was a number of peasants almost without any organization. The Revolution threatened to fall apart as the land was without leaders.
Stalin understood that the only way to keep things together was by a strong leadership and by controlling the new leaders who had no experience.
For this he let his right hand man, Beria found the KGB.
In order to feed the population he needed to organize farming. This became especially clear when a couple of years in a row there was a low harvest and famine raged. In order to feed the population, he disowned private farms and took whatever extra production was there. Those who objected (and many of those lived in Ukraine) were either killed or left without any food. This was the first time he caused major deaths.
After the famine, the WW2 arose. The Soviet Union had a lot of people, but no organization and very little war materials. But a country as big as Russia is not easily defeated. Factories were built, and engineers given the chance to build weapons that equaled those of the Germans, and exceeded them.
Until they were ready, Stalin used his advantage in numbers. 29 million people died, many of them got the orders that if they needed weapons they had to take them from the enemy.
With the war over, Stalin began to develop paranoia. He understood many people around him wer out to take his place, and trusted as good as nobody. This became the real black page in history of Stalin.
Due to his paranoia, when people were called to meet him they did not know what to expect. Either they would get a promotion, or death. Beria controlled the KGB, and would remove any opponent. The famous practices of black cars picking up people and letting them disappear, children ratting on their parents and all other things people in the West learned about Communism happened.
When Stalin died, the new leaders made his crimes public. Many of his helpers were found guilty and went to jail or were killed. This is something almost nobody knows today.

Stalin was a strong leader at a time the country needed one. He had no mercy for anyone opposing, regardless if it was friend or foe. Either you followed him, or you died.
Without him the Soviet Union would never have becoma a world power, and would probably have failed.
Without him the German Reich would have a better chance of winning the war.
Without him millions of people would not have died.
Without him nobody knows who could have led the country.

Stalin is in some ways an example of how the Russian society works. People do what they have to for survival. Wht is good for one, is bad for another. People do not intentionally do good and people do not intentionally do bad. They do what they have to do, from their culture, upbringing and mind.

When you condemn every act of Stalin, you forget that he built a strong country. When you fully support his acts, you forget he was guilty of many crimes. See him as you wish, but understand that nobody in this world is all bad or all good.

Russians are aware of what Stalin did, both good and bad. They are (mostly) aware Stalin was not a Russian by birth. They understand that Stalin laid the foundation for the power of the Soviet Union, and Russia still has power because of him. They also understand he was guilty of many crimes, of which a lot because of his paranoia.

The rest of the world finds it hard to understand why people would not fully condemn him. Or why Russians today would still see him as an important person in history.

To those who wish to compare Stalin and Hitler, think not of the similarities but of one vital difference.
The work of Hitler was destroyed once he left power. The work of Stalin lasted 40 years after his death.

[Cofiliano]

The work of Hitler was destroyed once he left power. The work of Stalin lasted 40 years after his death.

Cause the first one lost the war, and the second on won it, spreading his sphere of domination from Vladivostok to Berlin.


Saying Stalin did what he had to, cause USSR was collapsing, and that cause of it he shouldn't be judge, is like saying Hitler had to have a  strong leadership and ideology, cause he founded a destroyed Germany and Austra, after WWI, ashamed of their lost.


Hitler and Stalin were playing a game of a personel rivalty, from the start till the end, and the stakes were their lifes, country, and their nations.

Believe it or not, they were close to each other a lot, even had a friendship approach, and respect toward each other.

[SafetyMoose]

The work of Hitler was destroyed once he left power. The work of Stalin lasted 40 years after his death.

Well actually he called for the creation of the Autobahn Project and the Peoples Car to name a few, so I would say that he contributed a lot of positives to Germany that lasted after the war. Another example would be that he pushed for medical experiments that have led to the progression of modern medicine (yes they did these experiments in inhumane ways but thats not my point)

[JayL]

Well actually he called for the creation of the Autobahn Project and the Peoples Car to name a few, so I would say that he contributed a lot of positives to Germany that lasted after the war. Another example would be that he pushed for medical experiments that have led to the progression of modern medicine (yes they did these experiments in inhumane ways but thats not my point)

A changed flag does not mean a country was deleted and a new one was put in there. You still can't even compare the fate of Hitler's work to that of Stalin's work.

[Gandalf]

Cause the first one lost the war, and the second on won it, spreading his sphere of domination from Vladivostok to Berlin.


Saying Stalin did what he had to, cause USSR was collapsing, and that cause of it he shouldn't be judge, is like saying Hitler had to have a  strong leadership and ideology, cause he founded a destroyed Germany and Austra, after WWI, ashamed of their lost.


Hitler and Stalin were playing a game of a personel rivalty, from the start till the end, and the stakes were their lifes, country, and their nations.

Believe it or not, they were close to each other a lot, even had a friendship approach, and respect toward each other.

There was no friendship, as Stalins paranoia already convinced him Hitler would one day attack him.
As for Hitler creating the Autobahn, he was just modernizing the principles of the Roman empire who built large roads to easier transport troops.
The main parallel between them is that they provided the 'villain'  for America's ' hero'

[Dean.]

There was no friendship, as Stalins paranoia already convinced him Hitler would one day attack him.
As for Hitler creating the Autobahn, he was just modernizing the principles of the Roman empire who built large roads to easier transport troops.
The main parallel between them is that they provided the 'villain'  for America's ' hero'

Correct, Stalin only became an ally with Hitler to get more time, to get the right army to defend Russia against Hitler.
Sadly enough for him, the "blitzkrieg" was faster then expected.

[Jubin]

Correct, Stalin only became an ally with Hitler to get more time, to get the right army to defend Russia against Hitler.

To also attack Poland from other side, get Baltic states as was stated in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and to try and conquer Finland.

[saberman]

immature kids

Define.

[Gandalf]

To also attack Poland from other side, get Baltic states as was stated in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and to try and conquer Finland.

In reply to Germany taking their ' parts'  they took what they claimed in the pact, to prevent Germany expanding their claims as they noticed already happening a couple of times.