A few things that concern me ...

[Void]

As soon as these people start responding on their group's reports, they should be out of the team.
If you wish to remain as a staff member, you should let other staff members solve your group's situations and not interfere in any way(even if you're a witness).

[Chris_Knight]

We been thought opposite Void,you should be able carry your job when ever it's related to your family members /friends / random players . If you have any little favorism against your friends/family then you shouldn't be admin in first place .  :poke:

[Void]

We been thought opposite Void,you should be able carry your job when ever it's related to your family members /friends / random players . If you have any little favorism against your friends/family then you shouldn't be admin in first place .  :poke:

You simply can't have an objective overview of the situation when you have your group/friend involved, random players yes but your group? Not possible.
Those who tell you otherwise obviously lie. Then again, we can't act completely neutral in all circumstances but I still believe _Gvardia, _Ancelotti, _Stracci, _Corleone and so should not be administrating on the server.

This doesn't devalue you and your administration competency, not at all. You must avoid any conflict of interests even if it means leaving something(your group or administration).

[Salmonella]

You simply can't have an objective overview of the situation when you have your group/friend involved, random players yes but your group? Not possible.
Those who tell you otherwise obviously lie. Then again, we can't act completely neutral in all circumstances but I still believe _Gvardia, _Ancelotti, _Stracci, _Corleone and so should not be administrating on the server.

As an administrator, I've been handling reports and situations of people that I had a close relationship with, and people that were in the same group that I have been. I was perfectly able to put these relations aside and, from a neutral stance, punish them where they broke the rules. I've kicked and tempbanned Kris Sanders plenty of times, yet he's still one of my best friends in this community. The same goes for Link9rly, whom I've tempbanned a few times too.

[Boromir]

Emre, thanks for your opinions, but unfortunately, I regard this nothing but a public criticism and complaint towards our helpers. Furthermore, as you already know, it is not allowed to post such a topic here.

From your questions and arguments, I can tell that you have seen some problems in the admin team.
If you think admins have problems, send me an email via [email protected] WITH valid evidence.

Boromir

[Gandalf]

First of all, I know this is not a complaint section, even though my questions may express otherwise.Before some ignorant person dismisses this as "shitting on the community" without reading, actually take the time to read and consider this valid critisicm. I am also sure about the fact that there is a polite answer to all my questions as well as I am aware of the fact that many people would like to have asked the same questions before. My questions are merely directed to the moderators/administrators/managers and/or higher.

It looks more like you answer your own questions with your own answers instead of waiting for others.

Question one : Is it their professional buttkissing that gives you such a warm feeling or what else is it that you just cannot punish people equally ?
I'll show you an example so it will be easier to comprehed, this one will be an ingame scenario.

Person1, who has been in this server for an eternity who was administrator, who dedicated himself to this community has now become a little loose and mean but still is nice.
Person2 is the typical asskisser towards all administrators and hasn't been here for any longer than P1. Person2 is the sort of guy who seeks for fame in this community, who seeks for attention.
P1 : Dude you annoy me, shut the hell up
*P1 has been banned for flaming other community members

P2 : Lol stfu bad girl rofl hehe
Admin : LOL man, haha!

Tell me, how can this not reflect to us as some moral kind of thing ? The entire administration-team has told me that it doesn't matter about who you are, equal consequences apply for everyone. Seconds after that being said, I see one being banned for a reason, and another veterinary player warned only.

If you means that having a shitty attitude is the same as not asskissing I guess you are right.
Probably you do not know the difference.

Question two : Do you think that it is polite to introduce moderators / administrators to the team who are actually dedicated to a family ?
Nowadays, I see weird people accepted into the team that are just humorous or belong to a group, which gives his / her goons alot more abilities and advantages.

Question: do you think it is right to allow only cops in to administration ?
We need diversity, and select players who can see past being member of a group. Obviously you are blind to the possibility that being punished may be because of rulebreaking instead of dedication to a group.

Question three : Whenever a player has been banned once, does he not lose on value for you?

It is this problem that I noticed and started to feel that admins think if a player has been banned before, they simply use more drastic consequences as they would do for others. You cannot tell me that there is no difference.

If you have not learned anything from being banned, you are bound to be punished more strong as before.

Question four : Why does the administratve personnel -when a rulebreaking thing has been committed- get away with a weaker punishment than others?
Is it their ranking or what makes them feel so secured ? I see some of them performing degenerated things that we would be banished for while they can laugh their asses off and have a good joke with it.

If you see any admin breaking server rules please report them and they will be removed from the team.

Question five : Why can you not properly defend yourself in unban requests after incorrect bans?
There are multiple administrative people that may have banned for false issues or banned for complete incorrect things. Why do you still try to defend yourself ? Why do you not admit defeat about it? We would respect you much more if you would confess it rather than continue a dispute that leads to you having the moral upper hand and them to be denied.

If a ban or any other punishment is incorrect, admins will apologize and ensure there is a fast unban.
If a player feels he is incorrectly banned that does not make the ban itself incorrect.
Big difference, takes a brain to understand.

Argonath RPG isn't a world of it's own, or atleast is not ANYMORE, it's the world of the developers who won't put any restrictions on roleplay, which creates total chaos for players, as they can do whatever they like. All that will have a terrifying conclusion. People are bored, they cannot RP with others as everyone can do whatever they want. When there're no restrictions (even if only tiny ones) I cannot see what do the developers want to accomplish with the server, I don't understand the usage of admins then either, there's no goal to accomplish nor nowhere to move on, to develop. Everyone says that there are no restrictions in RP (Sure, RP requires the ability of improvising and fantasy) but that is just what causes less RP to occur. RPG stands for Roleplaying Game, but nowadays I think that the owners confused it with  I don't know ... Soviet Russia?  Corrupt and deluded adminstrators are allowed to remain as a member of the administration team, while hardworking and proper administrators get kicked from the administration team for their views on certain subjects. But there are also some other things to be concerned about.

That you have lost the ability to roleplay is not our fault. Why should we put restrictions, because players nowadays can not use their brains as they are used to rat mazes ? You are not obliged to play here.

The Argonath community was founded due to poor administration, discrimination, and a lack of equality in the previous community that the founders played on. Nowadays, these exact qualities can be found within the community of Argonath. People are forced to lie in unban requests to get unbanned, just because they have to be in favor of the owner's point of view, and are not allowed to have their own opinion.

We do not force anyone to lie just as we do not force anyone to play here. Follow our rules or get the fuck out. If that is too difficult to understand for you then you are in bigger trouble as you think.

Ever since some rules became incomprehensible, they have been twisted, until random new rules were implemented and either approved or disapproved by any of the developers, which caused, causes and will keep causing chaos.

Our rules have not changed. Please give any example of what you are telling here.

The promotion of alchohol and smoking is, according to the vision of Argonath, disallowed in the community, despite that point in the vision, it is still being broadcasted widely amongst anyone's computer monitor while taking a look in the ''Welcome'' section of this community - a section which should portray the contrary, for it is the first thing new players see when they take a look at the forums.

Please use the /report function for any inappropriate post. The number of posts is too big for us to check every one of them.

To come to a conclusion, I'll leave this final statement : The Argonath community was founded due to poor administration, discrimination, and a lack of equality in the previous community that the founders played on. Nowadays, these exact qualities can be found within the community of Argonath. People are forced to lie in unban requests to get unbanned, just because they have to be in favor of the owner's point of view, and are not allowed to have their own opinion. Things went that far that if you're against the USSR, you can get a forum ban and expect your forum signature to be changed to ''I am a facist'. Something that really disappointed me was that one of the community leaders has replaced the avatar of a Latin-American member of the community to a Mexican one with a sombrero or when he insulted the hell out of BlueFox for committing a valid ban on a scripter. Word was being said that ... nevermind, bullocks.

Bluefox hos not been part of the administration team for a long time. Perhaps you should actually play here instead of come tho shit around.

Footnote : I do tolerate opinions, I do respect them but I don't do either of those when they come by a higher ranked member who lacks in defending himself or others. I thank a few members who wrote this together with me and do not expect to be forwarded by messages like "use [email protected] if you have problems" because this is something serious, and the mentioned address occupied by Kojak who has gone lost.

Every mail there is red.

To make it clear:
1. We try to find people in the administration team from all groups, to keep diversity and stop the team from being one-sided. We are aware that people can not see past a group hate, and are reporting the admins of the 'other side' for invalid use of commands. As we get equal amounts of reports on the admins from 'their' side, and both are equally invalid, they might be ignored.

2. We do not ask people to lie or kiss ass. We ask them to follow a very limited set of rules, that offer a lot of freedom. If you do not want to follow that limited set, you do not have to play here. there are enough servers out there with a 10Gb rule book. Go play there.

3. That we unban people does not mean their ban was invalid or incorrect. It means we give them another chance. If they think this is reason to continue their behaviour, it will bite them in the ass.

4. I notice that the latest attempts to undermine our unique server and position are called 'bring roleplay back'. These attempts would be happily received if ther were not done by people who are constantly shitting the server, administration and owners, while asking everyone what their account name is on other servers and how they can help them.
Recruiting is not only prohibited on Argonath, but also on THAT community, and we might join forces to get out the cancer.

5. Most players who are 'attempting roleplay' are just finding an excuse to start a TDM session. That is a problem which we are going to address. If anyone urges you to come here only to disturb things, you are going to regret it in many ways.

6. Do not believe the lies that have always been pointed towards our community. People have been using the same lines since 2006.
- We do read every single mail that is sent to [email protected] and there are enough players here who have recent answers. We do not reply to mails if they are not worth the effort but we do read and check every one of them.
- We do keep a close watch on any admin and do not allow them to rulebreak.

Adn finally: we are all people. We make mistakes, we have those we like and those we do not like. And yes, the attitude that people show towards us will always influence our actions. If it would not we would not be human.
That does not mean we will not listen to opinions or consider our points of view. But it would be nice if the other side did as well. If anyone would agree with us they are 'asskissing'. Anyone shitting us 'has a valid opinion'. It does not work that way in life, and you will find it out one day.

We are not here to throw money at unthankful pigs. we are here to try let people enjoy things, and teach them some things about life. Life has no rulebook, you will only be imprisoned for heavy offenses.
Work for a boss, and see how long you can stay there while openly shitting on the company, managers and boss. Tell how government officials are shitty in their face, and see if they will help you or try to make your life hell. If a cop tells you not to speed, tell him sorry (lying) and drive off at full speed. See if he gives you the possibility to say sorry again.

We have never been a server for brainless idiots who can only not be bored if they have a 10Gb rulebook to follow and receive money from nowhere. But we have always been a 'noob server' that can make people addicted to role play and in some case move on to 'stricter' servers.
But the idea of some people that stricter is better is a farce. It is not better, as it does not allow free opportunities and frequent changes in what you do to find what you like best.
Our admins are here to protect you, and if you would show athankful attitude and respect their work instead of trying to shit on them and disturb it, they could do a much better job as they would only havt to consider themselves with rule breakers.

We are addictive. And even those shitting on us can not stay away. They have to come back, hoping to be part of what they are shitting because they failed. Failed to understand the rules. Failed to have respect for them selves. Failed to be able to play with others without hate. Failed in life.

[Gandalf]

As soon as these people start responding on their group's reports, they should be out of the team.
If you wish to remain as a staff member, you should let other staff members solve your group's situations and not interfere in any way(even if you're a witness).

While making decision on the admin team we have considered several things:
- Groups are a part of the server, and to exclude a player from receiving admin reights because of a group membership would be incorrect. SAPD is a group as well, and to accept only players who have no affiliation to any group would severely limit the options.
- Players should respect each other and not spread hate based om membership of groups. While this seems to be human nature a level of respect higher than currently available seems to be needed.
- For joining the admin team we look at general attitude and knowledge of rules, as well as activity and willingness to help others.

As we do realize that membership of a group does bring challenges we advise the following:
If multiple admins are present from different groups, in case of a conflict between the groups we advise admins to spectate and punish their own group. This because the opposite without failure has lead to complaints. If there are non-affiliated admins present they should take preference in handling.
We do this not because we do not trust the admins to take unbiased decisions on rule breaking, but because it has become evident that members of  rivalling group will not accept correct punishment as such and immediately file a complaint to 'remove' the admin.

[Emre]

    It looks more like you answer your own questions with your own answers instead of waiting for others.

Like I said, I did indeed have potential answers, however I wasn't sure as well as I wanted responses of administrative people, but all I received is casual ignorance.

    If you means that having a shitty attitude is the same as not asskissing I guess you are right.
    Probably you do not know the difference.

I can differ, I can also put levels between shitting and asskissing, it was just this particular example that led me to it.

    Question: do you think it is right to allow only cops in to administration ?
    We need diversity, and select players who can see past being member of a group. Obviously you are blind to the possibility that being punished may be because of rulebreaking instead of dedication to a group.

Nope, they are the same, just dedicated to another section. I'm not saying that all those who are in a group should never be chosen, but from what I see, the majority uses a mere part of the administrative rights to protect their fellows. I think you've got something wrong. I meant it the other way around. I mean, let me show you an example of a few people who are administrators nowadays without doing something proper ;
-Moderator A:; Before he was a moderator / admin ( I don't know his current rank by now), he did nothing but laugh his ass off with his friends and never got alerted to stop his flooding, in the exact opposite, administrators even encouraged it. There are even two things that seem wrong to me. I mean, it is not that he is doing a bad job, but if he gets the chance to be a good administrative member, than so shall I have the same chance to prove that I can be fairly consequent as well (and reconsidering that I was a polite IV:MP moderator before, I know what to do).
-Admin B ; His skill of listening to both sides lacks and that proves itself multiple times disregarding that it was massively up to date.
Both are not bad people, but the meaning of being an administrative member once was prestigious. I am sure that the majority of what I said consists of my personal thoughts, but the majority is aswell true.
**Note: identities removed by Gandalf for neutrality

    If you have not learned anything from being banned, you are bound to be punished more strong as before.

It is not about the punishment per se, it's about how others look at him. I mean, before I was falsely banned by Pancher, I had a clear record, maybe one warning per half a year, but that was it. After that, it lost of value for me as well as it must have lost of value for others. I don't know, tell me how admins think of someone after someone's first ban ?

    If you see any admin breaking server rules please report them and they will be removed from the team.

I did report multiple times, but it really wasn't regarded, none of the times. I'm sure that it wasn't on purpose, but if I do it multiple times within certain periods (not the spamming sort of) it should be looked at for once.

    If a ban or any other punishment is incorrect, admins will apologize and ensure there is a fast unban.
    If a player feels he is incorrectly banned that does not make the ban itself incorrect.
    Big difference, takes a brain to understand.

I'm not speaking for correct bans at all, but for those that are clearly false or exaggerated. Sure, correct bans might be seen as wrong by the concerned people, but that's something different again.

    That you have lost the ability to roleplay is not our fault. Why should we put restrictions, because players nowadays can not use their brains as they are used to rat mazes ? You are not obliged to play here.

Nobody can lose the ability, but become incapable of utilising it in here. People need a push or a pat on the back if they cannot roleplay here. The server is based on roleplay, harmless freeroam(stunting for example, no DM) and conversations between people (considering that no debate on /p is allowed). We have a stunt server if they want to drive like mad people and do freeroam stuff, we have a sister-community named ParUni if they like DM and we sure as hell don't need all that performance in the actual RPG server, that is the problem.

    We do not force anyone to lie just as we do not force anyone to play here. Follow our rules or get the f**k out. If that is too difficult to understand for you then you are in bigger trouble as you think.

You do not force someone to lie, but you lead someone to lie, he is in a trap where he either lies (if he really has been punished for something incorrect) and gets unbanned or remains true and may be denied. I feel somewhat threatened by what you try to express.

 

   Our rules have not changed. Please give any example of what you are telling here.

Administrators that equivocate rules. This merely applies when it comes to the border between committing a crime and committing a rulebreak. I hope you get what I mean by now.

    Please use the /report function for any inappropriate post. The number of posts is too big for us to check every one of them

.

I do no longer see this as my responsibility, because the sectionary moderators may focus on that rather than focus on little rants.

   

Bluefox hos not been part of the administration team for a long time. Perhaps you should actually play here instead of come tho shit around.

Again, a non-particular example and disregarding that you potentially play undercover, the past few months of activity ingame by me is alot more than yours.

    Every mail there is read.

Then why was only 1 out of 5 being taken care of?

    As we get equal amounts of reports on the admins from 'their' side, and both are equally invalid, they might be ignored.

Even if so, a short personal sentence saying so by administrators would show us that they atleast read it.

    If you do not want to follow that limited set, you do not have to play here. there are enough servers out there with a 10Gb rule book. Go play there.

Pile of crap is what they set as rules, that's why I keep fighting with my voice. If I would give up and/or give in, I would be gone by now, but I know that alot more is possible.

    Do not believe the lies that have always been pointed towards our community. People have been using the same lines since 2006.
    - We do read every single mail that is sent to [email protected] and there are enough players here who have recent answers. We do not reply to mails if they are not worth the effort but we do read and check every one of them.
    - We do keep a close watch on any admin and do not allow them to rulebreak.

I don't believe the majority of what is being posted and said, I try to build an opinion for myself by what I witness and experience. I'm sure that you try your best for admins not to break rules, but they don't know who told them not to do it ; You. I mean if I was told to stop urgently, I sure would.

    We make mistakes, we have those we like and those we do not like. And yes, the attitude that people show towards us will always influence our actions. If it would not we would not be human.

"We make mistakes" - this phrase is often used to excuse lack of professionalism for something, it's being used when you can't do something. For the rest, you just confirmed that others' decisions are consistant of their opinions too. And sure, that may be human, but it would be impolite at the same time. Nobody prohibits to have an opinion or a vision about someone, but you need to put that aside just to make a neutral decision, why else was I warned by your brother with the reason "stfu pls" just because I helped someone to correct his spelling as a joke that he granted ?


   

We have never been a server for brainless idiots who can only not be bored if they have a 10Gb rulebook to follow and receive money from nowhere. But we have always been a 'noob server' that can make people addicted to role play and in some case move on to 'stricter' servers.
    But the idea of some people that stricter is better is a farce. It is not better, as it does not allow free opportunities and frequent changes in what you do to find what you like best.
    Our admins are here to protect you, and if you would show athankful attitude and respect their work instead of trying to shit on them and disturb it, they could do a much better job as they would only havt to consider themselves with rule breakers.

We are neither of those (brainless-idiots-server or a nooby server), we are a community that supports roleplay that comes out of one's mind, which is just missing these days. That's what I mean. It's not about putting full-throttle-RP-rules, but to show them what we actually are. We sometimes introduce new players to the server and what the ask is whether this is a deathmatch server because we can't clearly show what we are.

    We are addictive. And even those shitting on us can not stay away. They have to come back, hoping to be part of what they are shitting because they failed.

Those who cannot stay away (me as an exhibit now) remain here because it is something what they educate themselves with and / or merely because this is a timekiller.

    Failed to understand the rules. Failed to have respect for them selves. Failed to be able to play with others without hate. Failed in life.

Argonath RPG is not a f**king place for mentally demolished people, stop making it look that way because you witnessed that or experienced similar things. I do know what it's like to fail in life, but that has no relation to me playing here, because I seperate both virtual and real things.

[Gandalf]

Like I said, I did indeed have potential answers, however I wasn't sure as well as I wanted responses of administrative people, but all I received is casual ignorance.

Perhaps you were not looking for answers in the right place.

I can differ, I can also put levels between shitting and asskissing, it was just this particular example that led me to it.

However many others who 'support' the topic would call any defense of administration asskissing.

Nope, they are the same, just dedicated to another section. I'm not saying that all those who are in a group should never be chosen, but from what I see, the majority uses a mere part of the administrative rights to protect their fellows.

This is often reported (though we receive far less reports as people claiming to have sent one)
and upon investigation usually found incorrect. As almost every player belongs to some group, we could not add anyone to the administration. You might not be aware, but several admins who are in a group are considering abandoning their group due to how they feel being perceived by their group mates and other players.

I think you've got something wrong. I meant it the other way around. I mean, let me show you an example of a few people who are administrators nowadays without doing something proper ;
-Moderator A:; Before he was a moderator / admin ( I don't know his current rank by now), he did nothing but laugh his ass off with his friends and never got alerted to stop his flooding, in the exact opposite, administrators even encouraged it. There are even two things that seem wrong to me. I mean, it is not that he is doing a bad job, but if he gets the chance to be a good administrative member, than so shall I have the same chance to prove that I can be fairly consequent as well (and reconsidering that I was a polite IV:MP moderator before, I know what to do).
-Admin B ; His skill of listening to both sides lacks and that proves itself multiple times disregarding that it was massively up to date.
Both are not bad people, but the meaning of being an administrative member once was prestigious. I am sure that the majority of what I said consists of my personal thoughts, but the majority is aswell true.
**Note: identities removed by Gandalf for neutrality

The first person is a moderator. Chances were given based on helpful attitude, and any promotion will be decided on how performance in this task is. And yes, I would not mind giving you a chance if you would apply. However decision is always made by the HQ (Managers + CL's + owners) and if one has a strong negative experience that casts a veto you might not pass.
That is how democracy works, though some may explain this as you have to kiss ass to all managers to get a chance.

It is not about the punishment per se, it's about how others look at him. I mean, before I was falsely banned by Pancher, I had a clear record, maybe one warning per half a year, but that was it. After that, it lost of value for me as well as it must have lost of value for others. I don't know, tell me how admins think of someone after someone's first ban ?

I can not tell you how others see it. What I do note is that people are making their own opinion on themselves, which is why at times they continue to claim innocence even if there is full and clear evidence of their guilt. For some reason people feel that admitting an error is worse as lying.
As for myself it depends on the reason of ban. If someone was banned for hacks, it would be normal to watch him a few times extra to see if hacks were removed. If someone was banned for flaming or attitude, I would give them less chance to develop the same again. That does not mean the player has lost value, just as he could not handle the initial freedom a shorter leash is given to prevent further banning.
On the other hand, we have people who were banned for this a number of times and we try to let them manage their problem instead of casting them out. Emotions are natural, but people should learn how to contain them instead of typing them out at times.

I did report multiple times, but it really wasn't regarded, none of the times. I'm sure that it wasn't on purpose, but if I do it multiple times within certain periods (not the spamming sort of) it should be looked at for once.

I have no idea where you reported. To report admins in game will obviously not have the desired effect.

I'm not speaking for correct bans at all, but for those that are clearly false or exaggerated. Sure, correct bans might be seen as wrong by the concerned people, but that's something different again.

Point me in PM to any ban topics that you feel are incorrect.

Nobody can lose the ability, but become incapable of utilising it in here. People need a push or a pat on the back if they cannot roleplay here. The server is based on roleplay, harmless freeroam(stunting for example, no DM) and conversations between people (considering that no debate on /p is allowed). We have a stunt server if they want to drive like mad people and do freeroam stuff, we have a sister-community named ParUni if they like DM and we sure as hell don't need all that performance in the actual RPG server, that is the problem.

I agree that the aspect of fighting has been given too much freedom. But as you can see in a recently closed topic, players seem to strongly object any action against it. It will take some new angles on what they do in game to change that, unless we wich to receive more complaining topics.
As for stunting, while it does not harm others I am not having a problem, similar with debate and other conversations. If I can read all chat that passes my screen, a normal player could never have a problem except on some special times.

You do not force someone to lie, but you lead someone to lie, he is in a trap where he either lies (if he really has been punished for something incorrect) and gets unbanned or remains true and may be denied. I feel somewhat threatened by what you try to express.

I can not take responsibility for people lying. What I do know is that we require our team to have evidence for bans, and in case a player disputes it will ALWAYS double check it before our position.
If someone tell he has no hacks yet has 65k weapons from thin air, he can continue to tell his friends we were wrong and his ban was incorrect. But we have evidence of 65k weapons that came from nowhere.
If you check the unban request, you will see that in some cases later a bug was discovered due to players not changing their viewpoint. What you may not see is that any player who was denied with the same situation will receive a PM with apology and unban without notice.
So if a player is truly innocent, all he needs to do is continue his point and unless there is compelling evidence is will be rewarded.

Administrators that equivocate rules. This merely applies when it comes to the border between committing a crime and committing a rulebreak. I hope you get what I mean by now.
.

We have regularly removed players from the admin team that tried to make their own rules.
As far as the border between a crime and rule break, see what I wrote above regarding DM.

I do no longer see this as my responsibility, because the sectionary moderators may focus on that rather than focus on little rants.

IF you do not see it as your responsibility then do not complain. Either do something about it or not.

   
Again, a non-particular example and disregarding that you potentially play undercover, the past few months of activity ingame by me is alot more than yours.

Your activity may be higher, but that does not mean that examples of a year ago are valid today.

Then why was only 1 out of 5 being taken care of?

From where you get your statistics ?
You might not be aware but I happen to have the bad habit of saving my mail forever.
Currently have about 30k saved mails of Argonath.
I searched on your current e-mail address and the name Emre in my mail.
What I found were 0 (ZERO) mails reporting admins since 2009, and 13 reports of topics on forums since 2011. If you used other mails please let me know, as I would not want to give a false impression.

Even if so, a short personal sentence saying so by administrators would show us that they atleast read it.

I could add an autoresponder but that would not change anything.

Pile of crap is what they set as rules, that's why I keep fighting with my voice. If I would give up and/or give in, I would be gone by now, but I know that alot more is possible.

All rules are in Wiki. Anything else is just interpretation of those rules, for which there is one base topic to know the official one.

I don't believe the majority of what is being posted and said, I try to build an opinion for myself by what I witness and experience. I'm sure that you try your best for admins not to break rules, but they don't know who told them not to do it ; You. I mean if I was told to stop urgently, I sure would.

As said, there is a place to report them.

"We make mistakes" - this phrase is often used to excuse lack of professionalism for something, it's being used when you can't do something. For the rest, you just confirmed that others' decisions are consistant of their opinions too. And sure, that may be human, but it would be impolite at the same time. Nobody prohibits to have an opinion or a vision about someone, but you need to put that aside just to make a neutral decision, why else was I warned by your brother with the reason "stfu pls" just because I helped someone to correct his spelling as a joke that he granted ?

Remember our admins are not professionals. All of us are volunteers.
As for your 'correction' you might wish to understand that we are not in school, and people who speak less than perfect English are as welcome as others as long as we can understand them.

   
We are neither of those (brainless-idiots-server or a nooby server), we are a community that supports roleplay that comes out of one's mind, which is just missing these days. That's what I mean. It's not about putting full-throttle-RP-rules, but to show them what we actually are. We sometimes introduce new players to the server and what the ask is whether this is a deathmatch server because we can't clearly show what we are.

I agree to a level here. But see above on the reactions of players towards adminsitration if they try to limit it.

Argonath RPG is not a f**king place for mentally demolished people, stop making it look that way because you witnessed that or experienced similar things. I do know what it's like to fail in life, but that has no relation to me playing here, because I seperate both virtual and real things.

I am talking about losers who got themselves banned from the community and are now trying to shit it elsewhere. As for Argonath, we can make a professional assessment of many players that will be more accurate as a psychological test for a job. And no we do not consider any of our players as mentally demolished. Though some of our former players come pretty close.

[Emre]

    Perhaps you were not looking for answers in the right place.

Show me a place (apart from PM or the e-mail address).

    However many others who 'support' the topic would call any defense of administration asskissing.

Nope, pretty much the majority knows then it's polite defense and are able to distant that from defending to be approved by a higher ranked person.

    This is often reported [...] due to how they feel being perceived by their group mates and other players.

Well there you go, it either leads to a dilemma or to the actual abuse of advantage(s), but there are aswell people that belong to groups but do know how to separate both their duty in a group and their duty being a moderator / administrator / whatsoever.



   

The first person is a moderator. Chances were given based on helpful attitude, and any promotion will be decided on how performance in this task is. And yes, I would not mind giving you a chance if you would apply. However decision is always made by the HQ (Managers + CL's + owners) and if one has a strong negative experience that casts a veto you might not pass.
    That is how democracy works, though some may explain this as you have to kiss ass to all managers to get a chance.

If this decision can be made without any big circumstance, then why was I never given a chance? I'm not speaking arrogantly, but I sure did contribute alot more than some people without any affecting negative experience (not speaking of now, I know what you're going to say). And basically, devoting yourself and supporting an admin all day long is the potential reason why most of the people did manage to become a moderator, you cannot tel me that there is no case such as this.

   

I can not tell you how others see it. What I do note is that people are making their own opinion on themselves,[...] but people should learn how to contain them instead of typing them out at times.

Finally a matching response that I can agree upon.


   

I have no idea where you reported. To report admins in game will obviously not have the desired effect.

I know that reporting an admin ingame is pretty much meaningless, but I did use [email protected] as I was often instructed to.

   

Point me in PM to any ban topics that you feel are incorrect.

Exhibit a, speaks for itself. Way too overreacted
Exhibit b, even if he is unbanned in his newer request, this pretty much odd enough to ban and deny at the same time
I could find a few requests that might be longer ago but are more relevant to what I stated.

   

I agree that [...] I am not having a problem, similar with debate and other conversations. If I can read all chat that passes my screen, a normal player could never have a problem except on some special times.

Tell that to the weak-tempered part of the personnel.

   

I can not take responsibility for people lying [...] and unless there is compelling evidence is will be rewarded.

I suppose you're right since I cannot see those personal apologies.

 

We have regularly removed players from the admin team that tried to make their own rules.
    As far as the border between a crime and rule break, see what I wrote above regarding DM.

Got it.

   

IF you do not see it as your responsibility then do not complain. Either do something about it or not.

The only thing I can do is to report, which I did from time to time, the rest of the responsibility comes to those who are authorized to take measures.

    Your activity may be higher, but that does not mean that examples of a year ago are valid today.

Yup.

   

From where you get your statistics ?
    You might not be aware but I happen to have the bad habit of saving my mail forever.
    Currently have about 30k saved mails of Argonath.
    I searched on your current e-mail address and the name Emre in my mail.
    What I found were 0 (ZERO) mails reporting admins since 2009, and 13 reports of topics on forums since 2011. If you used other mails please let me know, as I would not want to give a false impression.

It was a rather rhetorical thing. I myself can tell you following dates for when I reported cases.
-August 19th, 2010
-October 1st, 2011
-October 2nd, 2011 x2
-June 1st, 2012
The address that was used is 96###### (removed to stop spam) so if you have trouble checking for it, I might send you a printscreen.

    I could add an autoresponder but that would not change anything.

Who knows.

   

All rules are in Wiki. Anything else is just interpretation of those rules, for which there is one base topic to know the official one.

I was refering to other servers since you mentioned that they have an assload of rulebook. I know that our original rules are well-located and easy to find.

As said, there is a place to report them.

Going for it.



   

Remember our admins are not professionals. All of us are volunteers.
    As for your 'correction' you might wish to understand that we are not in school, and people who speak less than perfect English are as welcome as others as long as we can understand them.

It was a gag, I never mean to lecture others about proper spelling and / or grammar.


 

  I am talking about losers who got themselves banned from the community and are now trying to shit it elsewhere. As for Argonath, we can make a professional assessment of many players that will be more accurate as a psychological test for a job. And no we do not consider any of our players as mentally demolished. Though some of our former players come pretty close.

I don't think that occurs as often as it appears to be though.

[Gandalf]

Show me a place (apart from PM or the e-mail address).

As you may understand rulebreaking admins are not going to handle reports on them selves. So the e-mail address is the only place to be sure of the complaint being read.
Admins and moderators them selves are advised to use the e-mail adress rather than starting a shitstorm in admin chat.

Nope, pretty much the majority knows then it's polite defense and are able to distant that from defending to be approved by a higher ranked person.

The majority who use the word in combination with shitting on the admin team do not.

Well there you go, it either leads to a dilemma or to the actual abuse of advantage(s), but there are aswell people that belong to groups but do know how to separate both their duty in a group and their duty being a moderator / administrator / whatsoever.

As you mention, there are people who know to separate. If they can or not we can only determine by giving them a chance. If they fail to separate their duties, they will not survive.

   
If this decision can be made without any big circumstance, then why was I never given a chance? I'm not speaking arrogantly, but I sure did contribute alot more than some people without any affecting negative experience (not speaking of now, I know what you're going to say). And basically, devoting yourself and supporting an admin all day long is the potential reason why most of the people did manage to become a moderator, you cannot tel me that there is no case such as this.

I would say that your changing activity  in the past was one. To become moderator we need a minimal activity, and if you are currently self-banned we can not expect any.
There might be cases of people who managed to talk them selves in. Most did not survive.
There are also cases of people who are already 2 years talking to me in MSN to get admin rights, and still have none.
This is how it works in general:
1. We ask admins and managers to propose people, OR we open applications
2. From this a list of names arrives. Managers and owners check the list, scrap the ones that we feel are not suited and add some names.
3. A list is compiled of : suitable, not suitable, doubtful. On the doubtful ones the owners and community leaders take a final decision.
4. Announcement is made.
As you can see devoting yourself to a single admin is not likely to work out. Besides that owners and community leaders are not a fan of 'wannabe admins'.

   Exhibit a, speaks for itself. Way too overreacted
Exhibit b, even if he is unbanned in his newer request, this pretty much odd enough to ban and deny at the same time
I could find a few requests that might be longer ago but are more relevant to what I stated.

   
Exhibit A: first of all he comes back after 6 weeks wanting to know what he said. Bad memory ?\
Ok so we go in to logs and this is what we find:

Code: [Select]

[13:55:44] CMD -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : /pm 3 You should apply for LSRP mayne.
[13:55:51] CMD -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : /pm 43 You should apply for LSRP mayne.

Recruiting, directly bannable offense.

[14:03:33] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : Our solutions won\t be heard by the chief of this server.
[14:03:38] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : So its pointless.
[14:03:43] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : No development of RP is being done.
[14:03:58] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : How is it up to me.
[14:04:08] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : If they wont accept it, theres no use.
[14:04:22] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : Is the owner some sort of god for you?
[14:04:28] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : 2007 was the best.
[14:05:25] MSG -> [MA]Jerome_Froyan (62) : Not going to argue, but to put people to RP it needs scripts for people to start RPing.

Ban reason is obvious, even without the recruiting part.
This topic is one of the many evidences that we will discuss and there is no need to be cowardly hiding in chat trying to disrupt the server and recruiting people.

Exhibit B: Whatever he was using at the time cause him to 'make jokes' that just disturbed everyone. He seemed still under influence in his unban request, reason to deny and close it until a time he would be more rational.
You may feel that a ban for flooding is too severe, but it was not his first offense at that time.

   The only thing I can do is to report, which I did from time to time, the rest of the responsibility comes to those who are authorized to take measures.

Correct, but pointing at something and not doing anything is like letting someone drown because its the taks of the fire department to get him out.

    It was a rather rhetorical thing. I myself can tell you following dates for when I reported cases.
-August 19th, 2010
-October 1st, 2011
-October 2nd, 2011 x2
-June 1st, 2012
The address that was used is 96###### (removed to stop spam) so if you have trouble checking for it, I might send you a printscreen.

August 19, 2010: Was part of a series of reports on Klaus. This was handled as all reports were checked and found to be gathered over a year of time, often taken out of context and seemed part of a reveng campaign rather than truthful reports.
Still Klaus was talked to on those reports where ther were valid issues.

October 1st and 2nd 2011: Replied to by Kojak.

June 1st 2012: Handled in private.

You were telling only 1 in 5 gets handled, while all 4 were handled, and 2 were replied to.

Who knows.

Problem is that the mail address itself is forwarded, and the autoresponder on it does not work.
Will see if there is a way to send a reply, but that does not diminish the fact that we read al reports.

   I was refering to other servers since you mentioned that they have an assload of rulebook. I know that our original rules are well-located and easy to find.

I thought so, wanted to make sure.

    It was a gag, I never mean to lecture others about proper spelling and / or grammar.

Gags do not always translate well. Remember emotions do not travel in text.

  I don't think that occurs as often as it appears to be though.

It is very unlikely that taking action on Paruni is not related to a flood of topics within 24 hours all pointed at the same thing. I like to believe it is a coincidence.

[Emre]

    As you may understand rulebreaking admins are not going to handle reports on them selves. So the e-mail address is the only place to be sure of the complaint being read.
    Admins and moderators them selves are advised to use the e-mail adress rather than starting a shitstorm in admin chat.

Well you have a point there, even if it bugs to be forwarded to the address rather than solve it quickly via personal conversation (which would take a minute tops to settle something).

    The majority who use the word in combination with shitting on the admin team do not.

Can't deny nor affirm that.

    As you mention, there are people who know to separate. If they can or not we can only determine by giving them a chance. If they fail to separate their duties, they will not survive.

Well that's what they should relate to when it comes to separating ...

    I would say that your changing activity  in the past was one. [...]As you can see devoting yourself to a single admin is not likely to work out. Besides that owners and community leaders are not a fan of 'wannabe admins'.

Well, but I did have my top-moments, but let's put that aside. The system of bringing certain people in actually works, but if you ask them whether they're ready, sure they always say yes, but it's about their actual confidence. Do they really feel ready or do they just want the (they might think so) reputation and the higher position ? I agree with you when it comes to the wannabe admins sentence, but I see most of them more than just tolerated and welcomed. I definitely cannot report them for doing a think like that, since it's a moral kind of thing.

    Exhibit A: first of all he comes back after 6 weeks[...] and this is what we find

My bad, I didn't know of what followed was a definite thing.

    This topic is one of the many evidences that we will discuss and there is no need to be cowardly hiding in chat trying to disrupt the server and recruiting people.

Got a point, but what does that have to do with my topic in particular ?

    Whatever he was using at the time cause him to 'make jokes' that just disturbed everyone. He seemed still under influence in his unban request, reason to deny and close it until a time he would be more rational.
    You may feel that a ban for flooding is too severe, but it was not his first offense at that time.

The thing is that flooding cannot be put on the same level as commitments such as deathmatching or hacking, therefore I find that a temporary ban would of been appropriate even though I cannot tell about his past as I am not fully aware of it, even if it might have worked here as well.



 

  Correct, but pointing at something and not doing anything is like letting someone drown because its the taks of the fire department to get him out.

In this case, I'm incapable of swimming, but I can call 911 that might be punctual enough to take care.

    August 19, 2010: [...]where ther were valid issues.

I have never been informed about that.

    June 1st 2012: Handled in private.

I never said that this was settled to be frankly.

    You were telling only 1 in 5 gets handled, while all 4 were handled, and 2 were replied to.

There were certain reports that I sent you either via PM before and / or MSN. Even if they were a little less relevant than usual, no response has been given to a major part.



 

   Problem is that [...]but that does not diminish the fact that we read al reports.

What about a time limit? If people are patient enough, they will receive a message after a certain period saying something specific which might be up to you.

    Gags do not always translate well. Remember emotions do not travel in text.

That is true, but apart from, I think that RON was the only person who might have seen something wrong in it. I don't want to accuse him of doing something wrong, but I am just unsure about it.

    It is very unlikely that taking action on Paruni is not related to a flood of topics within 24 hours all pointed at the same thing. I like to believe it is a coincidence.

Snowball effect might be the matching term. It is a common sensed thing that opening one topic triggers other topics to be opened, even if that might be unnecessary.

[Gandalf]

Well you have a point there, even if it bugs to be forwarded to the address rather than solve it quickly via personal conversation (which would take a minute tops to settle something).

If someone is available yes. But we are not always so to make a centralized place to refer to is the best option.

Well, but I did have my top-moments, but let's put that aside. The system of bringing certain people in actually works, but if you ask them whether they're ready, sure they always say yes, but it's about their actual confidence. Do they really feel ready or do they just want the (they might think so) reputation and the higher position ? I agree with you when it comes to the wannabe admins sentence, but I see most of them more than just tolerated and welcomed. I definitely cannot report them for doing a think like that, since it's a moral kind of thing.

Everyone will say yes to an opportunity they would like to have. That does not mean they will fit it.
We have lost a number of players who could not only not handle their position, but could also not handle the loss or demotion. Some of our running jokes are that to let a player leave we give them admin rights and then demote them, or to make a player inactive we promote them to manager. As many jokes, these hold some truth.

Got a point, but what does that have to do with my topic in particular ?

His statement that we will not listen or accept any changes.

The thing is that flooding cannot be put on the same level as commitments such as deathmatching or hacking, therefore I find that a temporary ban would of been appropriate even though I cannot tell about his past as I am not fully aware of it, even if it might have worked here as well.

This is why you as player shold not judge the validity of a ban. Admins ban, and players who are banned can open an unban request with their story and opinion.
Then managers check this topic, and in most cases review the logs not of the ban itself but also what happened some time before to see what lead to the ban. If the ban is invalid, it will be stated. If a tempban could have been enough, a short unban time is evidence of our opinion on it, and at times this is followed by a reminder in the admin boards.
Apart from the managers the owners and leaders check the topics, and if I see a denial of a regular, I usually double check it.

As player you only see an unban request and the comments made there. You do not see that on average even the most simple unban request costs us 30 minutes. If there would be many invalid bans, be sure we would feel we are wasting our time. And the admin team would learn we do not like wasting it.

There were certain reports that I sent you either via PM before and / or MSN. Even if they were a little less relevant than usual, no response has been given to a major part.

I am not always on MSN, and even if I am I might now and then close the 25 windows and see who continues. If you do not get immediate reply, consider the MSN message as unread.
Sending it to the mail ensures that at this time 7 people receive a message. Chances that at least one will read it and take action are above average there.

What about a time limit? If people are patient enough, they will receive a message after a certain period saying something specific which might be up to you.

Sometimes it is a small issue and is kept for an admin meeting, and sometimes it is fully invalid.
I have installed an autoresponder with explanations on how we handle the mail. Let's see if it make people more happy.

That is true, but apart from, I think that RON was the only person who might have seen something wrong in it. I don't want to accuse him of doing something wrong, but I am just unsure about it.

English is not his native language. This causes him to react stronger on such things.

[Emre]

It feels like we're close to come to an end.

    If someone is available yes. But we are not always so to make a centralized place to refer to is the best option

.

True, I'll relate to it more often now.

    Everyone will say yes to an opportunity they would like to have.[...] As many jokes, these hold some truth.

Of course, there are those who fall, but those jokes, I've never seen or noticed any of them.

    This is why you as player shold not judge the validity of a ban. Admins ban,[...] and if I see a denial of a regular, I usually double check it.

I really hope this intensity to be continued.

    As player you only see an unban request and the comments made there. You do not see that on average even the most simple unban request costs us 30 minutes. If there would be many invalid bans, be sure we would feel we are wasting our time. And the admin team would learn we do not like wasting it.

I never witnessed the procedures, so yeah, I guess I'll get it now.


 

  Sending it to the mail ensures that at this time 7 people receive a message. Chances that at least one will read it and take action are above average there.

So you say that using the address is the kind of messaging that really finds its destination.

    I have installed an autoresponder with explanations on how we handle the mail. Let's see if it make people more happy.

I doubt this will be ridiculed, so it might be worth a good try.

    English is not his native language. This causes him to react stronger on such things.

I've understood that by now.

[Gandalf]

I hope that not just the two of us, but also others who are reading will learn from this.
In fact I hope that it brings more people forward to an open discussion without flaming and disrespect.
As I mentioned somewhere in the beginning, had this topic been open it woud by now either have been locked or have caused people to get themselves banned.
But should anyone have something useful to add, they are welcome to PM me.

I think Emre can now testify that I keep his words largely unchanged, only putting a note if and why I do remove something.

In many ways we share the concerns. And in many ways we look at it from a different angle due to having different information. By combining our information we can find a way forward and improve everything. But that can only be done if we learn to respect each other and have the will to listen as well as talk.
That goes not only for this forum or real life. It is valid in game as well. If you do not respect the other players, be it cops, new players or rivals, nothing postive will come out of it. If you do respect them, you can make magic happen.