Argonath RPG - A World of its own
Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => Topic started by: Huntsman on January 26, 2014, 05:56:53 pm
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Hey there guys,
I was watching a documentary on Yugoslavian war which I find very interesting to be honest, pardon me for being so ignorant but I live in Baltic States where we don't really study any of the Balkan history. So, from what I've seen so far is that Yugoslavia was a certain Soviet Union kind of federation, where each of the country would have it's own military force, flag and government which would be controlled by one president of Yugoslavia? Is it correct? I don't really understand how it works because from what I've seen is that Serbians had military, Bosnians had military and even Serbian minority in Bosnia had a military.. How come? Please explain what Yugoslavia was and how did it work? Also please explain me why did Serbia start the Yugoslavian war? And why did the Bosnian president said "We will not be part of Serbian Yugoslavia"? What did that mean? That Serbians wanted to control Yugoslavia or what? Thank you.
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Hey there guys,
I was watching a documentary on Yugoslavian war which I find very interesting to be honest, pardon me for being so ignorant but I live in Baltic States where we don't really study any of the Balkan history. So, from what I've seen so far is that Yugoslavia was a certain Soviet Union kind of federation, where each of the country would have it's own military force, flag and government which would be controlled by one president of Yugoslavia? Is it correct? I don't really understand how it works because from what I've seen is that Serbians had military, Bosnians had military and even Serbian minority in Bosnia had a military.. How come? Please explain what Yugoslavia was and how did it work? Also please explain me why did Serbia start the Yugoslavian war? And why did the Bosnian president said "We will not be part of Serbian Yugoslavia"? What did that mean? That Serbians wanted to control Yugoslavia or what? Thank you.
Hello Rytuklis!
Yugoslavia was country that had Communistic regieme.
Mostly people were wealthy enough to plan normal life, going to vacations and such.
My parents lived in Sarajevo, Bosnia. I was born there. They had nice life. Father played drums in a band, mother was a Serbian teacher. Father also worked as a Journalyst in some Music magazine, related to Rock music. Also they had cassete renting store, or what's the correct name for it. Anyway, when war started they had to leave their home with my brother, and came to Serbia as refugees, to save our lives ofcourse. I am thankful to God, that he gave me life, and I did not lost my parents or brother.
Yugoslavia had awesome sport players, scientists, musicians, writers, and so on.. Artists of all kind of things.
Reason of war was, like official, everyone wanted individual part of the cookie, they wanted to divide, Serbians didn't want it, they wanted to rule blabla.
Truth is that it's probably because it was pain in the eye for some of World's "top class" people, or some debt. Mostly people here blaim USA for war. I believe it's true. Because after that war, life couldn't be the same. We still have people here who hate our neighbours, our countrymen before war. Basically it's NATO or whoever profiting from war. It was pure and simple-Divide and conquer. They used Yugoslavians vs Yugoslavians, burning people's hearts/minds. I am so sorry people couldn't get it. And still not getting it today! After Kosovo got independence, I heard that some people that were high ranks in NATO during the bombarding of Serbia in 1999. ( NATO Bombarded Serbia, because we... Didn't want to change president or something like that lol? ) are now Directors of companies that exploit rare minerals in Kosovo. ( Kosovo was known as a high source of Oil and rare minerals. Some of them are used in industry that makes cell phone batteries and such ). That's would be the shortest I can go, because this subject is.. Heavy.
Best regards, thanks for the interest.
BojanS
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Hello Rytuklis!
Yugoslavia was country that had Communistic regieme.
Mostly people were wealthy enough to plan normal life, going to vacations and such.
My parents lived in Sarajevo, Bosnia. I was born there. They had nice life. Father played drums in a band, mother was a Serbian teacher. Father also worked as a Journalyst in some Music magazine, related to Rock music. Also they had cassete renting store, or what's the correct name for it. Anyway, when war started they had to leave their home with my brother, and came to Serbia as refugees, to save our lives ofcourse. I am thankful to God, that he gave me life, and I did not lost my parents or brother.
Yugoslavia had awesome sport players, scientists, musicians, writers, and so on.. Artists of all kind of things.
Reason of war was, like official, everyone wanted individual part of the cookie, they wanted to divide, Serbians didn't want it, they wanted to rule blabla.
Truth is that it's probably because it was pain in the eye for some of World's "top class" people, or some debt. Mostly people here blaim USA for war. I believe it's true. Because after that war, life couldn't be the same. We still have people here who hate our neighbours, our countrymen before war. Basically it's NATO or whoever profiting from war. It was pure and simple-Divide and conquer. They used Yugoslavians vs Yugoslavians, burning people's hearts/minds. I am so sorry people couldn't get it. And still not getting it today! After Kosovo got independence, I heard that some people that were high ranks in NATO during the bombarding of Serbia in 1999. ( NATO Bombarded Serbia, because we... Didn't want to change president or something like that lol? ) are now Directors of companies that exploit rare minerals in Kosovo. ( Kosovo was known as a high source of Oil and rare minerals. Some of them are used in industry that makes cell phone batteries and such ). That's would be the shortest I can go, because this subject is.. Heavy.
Best regards, thanks for the interest.
BojanS
Thank for your answer. It did indeed seem like an interesting political system over there, still , some of my questions remained unanswered:
I don't really understand how it works because from what I've seen is that Serbians had military, Bosnians had military and even Serbian minority in Bosnia had a military.. How come?
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The whole Balkan/Yugoslav subject is very delicate, so I'll be as neutral as I can here for the sake of history. I myself am not the best informed person on this either, but I can, however, say that the state of Yugoslavia was absolutely NOT related to the Soviet Union as it maintained Yugoslavian Socialism under Josip Tito. The State was formed after the Second World War by the mentioned Tito, Partizan leader during the war, by uniting several Balkan states. Yugoslavia was also, on racial, religious and ethnical basis, very different within (Croatian Catholics, Serbian Orthodox Christians, Bosniak Muslims,...). It was, however, a very stable and wealthy state during Tito's regime.
After his death, trouble started occuring within the state, and nationalistic tensions were rising. Fights, riots, etc. started to occur up until the separation of several countries from Yugoslavia (Serbia) like Macedonia, Slovenia, etc. The separation of Slovenia caused the most shortest war in history (a week if I'm not wrong). Macedonia was not in war with Serbia after its seperation. The separation of Croatia and Bosnia were however the worst in terms of war. (Muslim part of) Bosnia had even suffered a genocide (which is proven by facts yet still denied by some people, mainly being Serbs) during the reign of Milosevic, Karadzic and military leader Mladic, who all went into hiding post-war period but were ultimately found and are now being procecuted.
Reason for the Bosnian war was that there were Serbs living within Bosnian borders, and did not want to seperate from Yugoslavia/Serbia, which caused an internal based conflict (as Bosnia consists of Bosnian Serbs, Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslim) and even Bosnian Croats). The Serbian part under the lead of Karadzic and Mladic were supported by Yugoslavian armies with the mission of ethnic cleansing of the muslim minority (see Srebrenica Genocide). Croatia was also at war with Serbia, but had suffered less as they could defend themselves. Croatia under Tudjman also waged war against the muslim minority in Bosnia, mainly at the Southern parts like Mostar, etc, but later on broke their contract with the Serbs in conquering of the land (and the killing of the minority that went with it). The war within Bosnia was finally stopped after UN bombings on Serbian territory. After this, the 'Dayton Agreement' was signed, authorizing the separation and acknowledging the federation of Bosnia & Hercegovina, having 3 seperated communities within: 'Republika Srpska' (Serbian part) - 'Bosnia' (Bosniak part) - Hercegovina (Croat part).
Nowadays, problems still occur within Bosnia (such as disagreements in between the three communities on political level, corruption, economical deficit, etc.) and Kosovo, which I unfortunately know not enough about to go deeper on.
This is what happened in very general terms, with the main focus on the problems in Bosnia. I suggest you to do some thorough research yourself for more in-depth and detailed cases.
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Yugoslavia had one army - JNA. Once war started, every side created an army to fight for it's goals. In Bosnia there were two armies - one of Bosnian muslims and one of Bosnian Serbs.
I may try to answer you questions but this is very complex matter. Answers might be a little biased, on other hand more truthful from western propaganda movies :)
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Pretty much the core of Yugoslavia has been explained, and about Kosovo unrightfully getting independance, it's indeed mostly because of the minerals. Why would the USA even bother about what happens between Serbs and Albanians? For them it was a great chance to obtain resources. If the Americans weren't so focused on the money, Kosovo would never be independant, which is why Albanians also proudly wave around American flags.
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I never supported the sick travesty called Yugoslavia, unity of something that just doesn't go together and never should have, here is a trailer of a documentary which can really explain all the things you want to know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qi50Mun4RA
If you are willing to spare a couple of hour's on it you can find the whole documentary on youtube as well.
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I never supported the sick travesty called Yugoslavia, unity of something that just doesn't go together and never should have, here is a trailer of a documentary which can really explain all the things you want to know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qi50Mun4RA
If you are willing to spare a couple of hour's on it you can find the whole documentary on youtube as well.
Great unbiased documentary.
It shows how America portrayed Serbia as an agressor to have a reason to bomb Serbia, and in the process also bombing corporations like Yugo car factory to buy those facilities for a very low price.
Also funny how they entered and interfered in Kosovo to end conflict and bring order, while they took over the TrepÄÂa Mining complex. Now the west has their eye on Vojvodina because of its fertile soil.
Serbia has been screwed by immoral money hungry wolves, but it's invisible to the naked eye because of media and corruption. Joining the EU will bring nothing good. Foreign corporations will invest in Serbia, while Serbian corporations disappear. Look what happened to Croatia; A lot of money has been earned because of tourism by hotels and restaurants, but none of that money stayed in Croatia, it went directly to the owners in the west, for example Germany.
The elderly are too tired to fight the corruption after all they've been through, and the youngsters only value materialism.
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Was the United States looking into Yugoslavian interests? Probably. But, the only ones to blame are those who wanted a Yugoslavia for themselves. In the end, it fucked up every ex. Yugoslavian state.
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But, the only ones to blame are those who wanted a Yugoslavia for themselves. In the end, it f**ked up every ex. Yugoslavian state.
Educate yourself on what actually happened.
America wanted to continue giving economical aid to the Yugoslavian states, but only if they proclaimed independence. Yugoslavian states started doing this which as predicted caused chaos, which gave America a "legal" opportunity to invade Yugoslavian states, especially Serbia, and expand their economy from there. They used the Yugoslavian states as colonies.
Not the desire for unity, but America's smart play and desire for money f**ked up every ex Yugoslavian state.
They helped Kosovo get independence now aswell, but literally all America is doing is using Kosovo as a colony. The Albanians can't do anything themselves that the Americans don't like.
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It's gonna be interesting when the west drains out everything from those lands and retreats totally after they lose all interest.That's the reason why are they in this whole situation at first place, moral duty,humanity and all that other crap you can sell to the kids or you are just ignorant.
Yugoslavia was a sick creation, after all we went to in world war 2 and WW1,times between the great wars, all the massacres that the so called brothers did to one another, simply it was an impossible thing to last.
Again with the documentary, this one show's all the brutally's of the croat army in WW2.It has a lot of examples of the crimes they did, not just the numbers and stats. If you got the belly for it and an houre to spare watch it.It was made in the late 70's I think by Yugoslavia so its not Serbian propaganda and all the facts you need are there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U0C0G-fzug
Tony, now I figured out where you got the name for Argo :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonibler
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Educate yourself on what actually happened.
America wanted to continue giving economical aid to the Yugoslavian states, but only if they proclaimed independence. Yugoslavian states started doing this which as predicted caused chaos, which gave America a "legal" opportunity to invade Yugoslavian states, especially Serbia, and expand their economy from there. They used the Yugoslavian states as colonies.
Not the desire for unity, but America's smart play and desire for money f**ked up every ex Yugoslavian state.
They helped Kosovo get independence now aswell, but literally all America is doing is using Kosovo as a colony. The Albanians can't do anything themselves that the Americans don't like.
Right, and just because I want to break in your house doesn't mean I'm just going to come in and do it, I'll obviously have to wait for you to leave so I can do so.
You watched one documentary and read a couple of articles on wikipedia and feel that you are the genius of Balkan history, however only common sense is needed to figure out that America wouldn't have been able to do anything to Yugoslavian states if they didn't allow it. Yugoslavia didn't need any benefits from United States until there wasn't anyone to keep everyone together. While we were pointing weapons at each other (which is what they were waiting for), United States already had Yugoslavia in their hands.
@Nikos - First time seeing that. :P
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Right, and just because I want to break in your house doesn't mean I'm just going to come in and do it, I'll obviously have to wait for you to leave so I can do so.
"obviously", you say it as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. I don't hope most Albanians share that cowardly way of thinking.
Tito invested a lot in Kosovo by establishing a university and schools and then inviting the Albanians to live there, as he wanted a bigger Yugoslavia. You were invited guests in Kosovo, and now, years later, you claim it as an independant land.
The only reason the Serbs left is because of bombings and discrimination from the Albanian side who felt untouchable with the Americans agains the Serbs. All the Albanians deserve now is a kick back to the isolated land they come from.
You watched one documentary and read a couple of articles on wikipedia and feel that you are the genius of Balkan history,
Useless remark, only shows your simplistic way of thinking. I didn't know you were an expert on what things I know.
however only common sense is needed to figure out that America wouldn't have been able to do anything to Yugoslavian states if they didn't allow it. Yugoslavia didn't need any benefits from United States until there wasn't anyone to keep everyone together. While we were pointing weapons at each other (which is what they were waiting for), United States already had Yugoslavia in their hands.
Which is what I said, yes. You are copying my words.
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"obviously", you say it as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. I don't hope most Albanians share that cowardly way of thinking.
And I don't see how I am "cowardly thinking" because I'm not even defending anyone. If Albanians, Serbs, Bosnians, Croatians and aliens weren't looking to create independent countries, how do you expect others NOT to take advantage of you? Like Nikos pointed out, you would probably expect that from a country that was genocidal to each other not long before.
Tito invested a lot in Kosovo by establishing a university and schools and then inviting the Albanians to live there, as he wanted a bigger Yugoslavia. You were invited guests in Kosovo, and now, years later, you claim it as an independant land.
The only reason the Serbs left is because of bombings and discrimination from the Albanian side who felt untouchable with the Americans agains the Serbs. All the Albanians deserve now is a kick back to the isolated land they come from.
Useless remark, only shows your simplistic way of thinking. I didn't know you were an expert on what things I know.
Which is what I said, yes. You are copying my words.
And this is where you continue to jump on other topics because you're unworthy to give a reply on what I said, probably because you feel offended for something that you shouldn't be.
Tito wasn't "inviting" Albanians into Kosovo, he let Albanians return that were expelled from Kosovo during 1918 through 1941. Through these years Serbia had a colonization programme where they were expelling and killing Albanians, and then brought Serbs in Kosovo to give them free land and houses, in return that they live there forever, obviously in order to try to make Kosovo an ethnic Serb majority.
During this programme, thousands of Albanians were expelled to Turkey, and if you take a few minutes to search on Youtube, you will find documentaries about Albanians in Turkey and how they got there.
All the Albanians deserve now is a kick back to the isolated land they come from.
And where would that be, Mr. KnowItAll?
Useless remark, only shows your simplistic way of thinking. I didn't know you were an expert on what things I know.
Which is what I said, yes. You are copying my words.
I couldn't be an expert on those things because you don't really know much...
What we both said as actually quite the opposite. You stated that United States got the "legal" away of invading Yugoslavia when the Yugoslavian states wanted the economical aid. That means that this happened near the end of the fall of Yugoslavia, when everyone started to fight each other, which again makes my statement true.
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And I don't see how I am "cowardly thinking" because I'm not even defending anyone. If Albanians, Serbs, Bosnians, Croatians and aliens weren't looking to create independent countries, how do you expect others NOT to take advantage of you? Like Nikos pointed out, you would probably expect that from a country that was genocidal to each other not long before.
And this is where you continue to jump on other topics because you're unworthy to give a reply on what I said, probably because you feel offended for something that you shouldn't be.
I was talking about the Albanians on Kosovo proclaiming it independant and "taking" the land when the Serbs were in a position where they couldn't react. That's what I found cowardly. Kosovo has been part of Serbia for many many years and has been recognized as part of Serbia since it was conquered. The fact that moneyhungry countries signed some papers doesn't mean Kosovo is not still Serbian.
And this is where you continue to jump on other topics because you're unworthy to give a reply on what I said, probably because you feel offended for something that you shouldn't be.
What are you even talking about
Tito wasn't "inviting" Albanians into Kosovo, he let Albanians return that were expelled from Kosovo during 1918 through 1941. Through these years Serbia had a colonization programme where they were expelling and killing Albanians, and then brought Serbs in Kosovo to give them free land and houses, in return that they live there forever, obviously in order to try to make Kosovo an ethnic Serb majority.
During this programme, thousands of Albanians were expelled to Turkey, and if you take a few minutes to search on Youtube, you will find documentaries about Albanians in Turkey and how they got there.
The fact that only Albanians who were earlier expelled returned is purely your opinion.
But let's say that that is true (which it isn't because entrance to Kosovo was free for Albanians and no papers were needed), they would still be invited guests.
I couldn't be an expert on those things because you don't really know much...
If you try to be funny next time, do it correctly and atleast act as if you were smart.
If I don't really know much, and you aware of this, then you would indeed be an expert on the things I know.
What we both said as actually quite the opposite. You stated that United States got the "legal" away of invading Yugoslavia when the Yugoslavian states wanted the economical aid. That means that this happened near the end of the fall of Yugoslavia, when everyone started to fight each other, which again makes my statement true.
And why did Yugoslavia fall? Because many Yugoslavian states proclaimed independence.
Why did they proclaim independence? Because the USA pressured them to do so.
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I was talking about the Albanians on Kosovo proclaiming it independant and "taking" the land when the Serbs were in a position where they couldn't react. That's what I found cowardly. Kosovo has been part of Serbia for many many years and has been recognized as part of Serbia since it was conquered. The fact that moneyhungry countries signed some papers doesn't mean Kosovo is not still Serbian.
And again, how am I cowardly thinking when my statement was directed to America's interest in Yugoslavia and not just Kosovo? Exactly, "conquered" is the right word because it doesn't belong to you. Our people were there before the Slav invasions in the Balkan and then, like you said, you conquered it. :)
The fact that only Albanians who were earlier expelled returned is purely your opinion.
But let's say that that is true (which it isn't because entrance to Kosovo was free for Albanians and no papers were needed), they would still be invited guests.
Not really my opinion, it's a pure fact that even Serbs know about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Kosovo
http://pescanik.net/2013/04/the-colonization-of-kosovo/ <---- Serbian source
If you try to be funny next time, do it correctly and atleast act as if you were smart.
I was actually serious. You're actually the one here giving opinions and trying to avoid facts. Like I said, don't try to think you know everything because you saw one documentary which fell into your favour. :)
And why did Yugoslavia fall? Because many Yugoslavian states proclaimed independence.
Why did they proclaim independence? Because the USA pressured them to do so.
Yugoslavia fell because there was nobody, other than Tito, to keep it together. The fact that Yugoslavia wouldn't survive without a good leader was something that people already knew about during Yugoslavia.
If Yugoslavia was strong like it was in the beginning, nobody would've been able to pressure any of the republics to proclaim independence.
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And again, how am I cowardly thinking when my statement was directed to America's interest in Yugoslavia and not just Kosovo? Exactly, "conquered" is the right word because it doesn't belong to you. Our people were there before the Slav invasions in the Balkan and then, like you said, you conquered it. :)
Not really my opinion, it's a pure fact that even Serbs know about.
Kosovo exchanged ownership many times in history. For example like a big part of the balkan, it has dealt with Ottoman occupation for a long time. Serbia however indeed conquered Kosovo which was recognized by the rest of the world. It was conquered with battles, not by paperwork like it got now, while Serbia was not able to react. This is the cowardly situation I am talking about.
And here I am solely talking about Kosovo.
Not really my opinion, it's a pure fact that even Serbs know about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Kosovo
http://pescanik.net/2013/04/the-colonization-of-kosovo/ <---- Serbian source
You gave me 2 articles but didn't take into consideration something that I wrote.
Entrance to Kosovo for Albanians was without boundaries. Any Albanian could move from Albania to Kosovo because of the good living conditions there. It is obvious that not only expelled Albanians returned.
I was actually serious. You're actually the one here giving opinions and trying to avoid facts. Like I said, don't try to think you know everything because you saw one documentary which fell into your favour. :)
And again, you are not achieving anything by making a claim that I watched only 1 documentary and "know it all", nor have I ever said that I know everything. Please don't put words in my mouth.
What I tried saying is that you simply made a language error while trying to be funny, which I found humoristic.
You said that you are not an expert on the things I know because the things I know are "not many".
If however you know that I don't know many things, it would actually make you an expert on the things I know. :)
Yugoslavia fell because there was nobody, other than Tito, to keep it together. The fact that Yugoslavia wouldn't survive without a good leader was something that people already knew about during Yugoslavia.
If Yugoslavia was strong like it was in the beginning, nobody would've been able to pressure any of the republics to proclaim independence.
I didn't deny that, nor will I deny it. I never claimed that Yugoslavia is indestructable and that it was perfect.
I simply said that it has dealt with foreign pressure which eventually lead to its downfall.
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Kosovo exchanged ownership many times in history. For example like a big part of the balkan, it has dealt with Ottoman occupation for a long time. Serbia however indeed conquered Kosovo which was recognized by the rest of the world. It was conquered with battles, not by paperwork like it got now, while Serbia was not able to react. This is the cowardly situation I am talking about.
And here I am solely talking about Kosovo.
Right, and since the part where Serbia conquered is only important to you, let me remind you that doesn't matter in the end because Kosovo is no longer Serbia and Serbia has no control inside Kosovo's borders; if you want something to be done even on the North, you need negotiations to make it happen.
You lost one battle in Kosovo during the Ottoman Empire and now claim full rights over Kosovo. Well my people also died for Kosovo in 1999. Do you now realize the way of your thinking?
You gave me 2 articles but didn't take into consideration something that I wrote.
Entrance to Kosovo for Albanians was without boundaries. Any Albanian could move from Albania to Kosovo because of the good living conditions there. It is obvious that not only expelled Albanians returned.
I did. You said it was my opinion and not a fact, in which I clearly proved to you that it indeed is a fact.
Were Albanians let into Kosovo? Yes. Tito let that happen because Enver Hoxha, Albanian president, was still pretty hostile against Serbia for what the Serbs did to Albanians during 1918-1941. In order to placate Enver Hoxha, Tito let over 200,000 Albanians get into Kosovo, half or even lass than half the amount that were already driven out during 1918-1941. Also, we don't know if anyone of those Albanians were returning or not.
You obviously like to avoid the fact that a big portion of the Albanian population was removed from Kosovo and replaced by Serbs, but you seem to have a problem that Albanians were let inside Kosovo. One word: Biased.
And again, you are not achieving anything by making a claim that I watched only 1 documentary and "know it all", nor have I ever said that I know everything. Please don't put words in my mouth.
What I tried saying is that you simply made a language error while trying to be funny, which I found humoristic.
You said that you are not an expert on the things I know because the things I know are "not many".
If however you know that I don't know many things, it would actually make you an expert on the things I know. :)
I didn't deny that, nor will I deny it. I never claimed that Yugoslavia is indestructable and that it was perfect.
I simply said that it has dealt with foreign pressure which eventually lead to its downfall.
Kinda irrelevant to the topic and getting pretty pointless so I wont bother on this part anymore.
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Right, and since the part where Serbia conquered is only important to you, let me remind you that doesn't matter in the end because Kosovo is no longer Serbia and Serbia has no control inside Kosovo's borders; if you want something to be done even on the North, you need negotiations to make it happen.
It is true that Serbia has little to no control in Kosovo at the moment, and it is impossible to make negotiations.
There were several Serb mayors elected in Northern Kosovo. One was shot dead by an Albanian, and the other refused to sign the oath as there was a Kosovo flag and Kosovo title hidden / taped under the contract. If he did sign it, he as a Serb would accept that Kosovo is an independent state, which he luckily did not.
These oaths are not likely to change though, which only brings more frustration on the Serb side.
One thing is for sure, when America is done with Kosovo and lets it be in the future, it is pretty much impossible for the Serbs to not shift their focus back on Kosovo. Many will avenge the deaths of Serbs and the destructions of monasteries and churches.
You lost one battle in Kosovo during the Ottoman Empire and now claim full rights over Kosovo. Well my people also died for Kosovo in 1999. Do you now realize the way of your thinking?
The Albanian KLA terrorists themselves caused the war. Action reaction.
It is fair to say that the Albanian terrorists caused the deaths of Albanian citizens in Kosovo.
I did. You said it was my opinion and not a fact, in which I clearly proved to you that it indeed is a fact.
How is it a fact when we don't know if only expelled Albanians returned to Kosovo?
Entrance was also free to regular / non expelled Albanians.
you seem to have a problem that Albanians were let inside Kosovo. One word: Biased.
You just noticed?
Kinda irrelevant to the topic and getting pretty pointless so I want bother on this part anymore.
Thanks for understanding.
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It is true that Serbia has little to no control in Kosovo at the moment, and it is impossible to make negotiations.
There were several Serb mayors elected in Northern Kosovo. One was shot dead by an Albanian, and the other refused to sign the oath as there was a Kosovo flag and Kosovo title hidden / taped under the contract. If he did sign it, he as a Serb would accept that Kosovo is an independent state, which he luckily did not.
These oaths are not likely to change though, which only brings more frustration on the Serb side.
One thing is for sure, when America is done with Kosovo and lets it be in the future, it is pretty much impossible for the Serbs to not shift their focus back on Kosovo. Many will avenge the deaths of Serbs and the destructions of monasteries and churches.
If you're talking about Dimitrije Janicijevic, then you can't say it was an Albanian because there aren't even any possible suspects.
What do you expect? You got the right to form your political party in a region where your people live, but you don't want to recognize Kosovo as a country. You are constantly denying Kosovo as an independent country, yet your politicians constantly have dialogues with our politicians. You request Kosovo Serbs on the north to have certain benefits, yet Kosovo is still somehow not independent.
Albanians in Preshevo and Bujanovac also have their political parties, but they're not pretending and refusing to accept the fact that they are in Serbia and not a part of Kosovo.
Cool. But the chances of war happening like in the 90's is pretty low.
The Albanian KLA terrorists themselves caused the war. Action reaction.
It is fair to say that the Albanian terrorists caused the deaths of Albanian citizens in Kosovo.
Action reaction indeed. KLA LIBERTY FIGHTERS didn't start a war for the hell of it. Your president Slobodan Milosevic was the one trying to wipe out Albanian existence in Kosovo.
I can't believe you have the nerves to say that. Do you really want me to list out the massacres you caused on civilians during the Kosovo War? Or are you trying to imply that the fact that a war started you can kill all civilians in sight?
How is it a fact when we don't know if only expelled Albanians returned to Kosovo?
Entrance was also free to regular / non expelled Albanians.
It's a fact that you expelled more than were allowed. But you are trying to avoid the fact and keep implying how bad it was that Tito let Albanians into Kosovo, only because it rules in your favour. That my friend is not a way to debate.
You just noticed?
That you're biased? No, I noticed from your first post.
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This topic is ready to be locked. As I said, all you will get is biased answers. For Albanians - Serbs are fault, for Serbs - Albanians are fault.
Biggest point here is - Kosovo is Bondsteel with sad people around it. Serbs are living in they imagination land where Kosovo is still Serbia, and Albanains are living in their imagination land where Kosovo is free and independent. Yea ofc, they can't move a toe without asking USA first. Most of factories and mines are in hands of EU and USA if I am correct.
Funniest part will be - you can find a bank and fast car in Kosovo on every corner but unemployment there is at highest rate then anywhere in Europe. Human and drugs (and organs) trafficking are best business there... Nice "country" you got there...
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If you're talking about Dimitrije Janicijevic, then you can't say it was an Albanian because there aren't even any possible suspects.
I think it's more logical for an Albanian who is pro-independent Kosovo to kill a Serbian politician who would have influence in northern Kosovo than for a Serb or any other person to do it.
What do you expect? You got the right to form your political party in a region where your people live, but you don't want to recognize Kosovo as a country. You are constantly denying Kosovo as an independent country, yet your politicians constantly have dialogues with our politicians. You request Kosovo Serbs on the north to have certain benefits, yet Kosovo is still somehow not independent.
Kosovo is not independent for 2 reasons. The first reason being that Albanian politicians on Kosovo have no influence over Kosovo at all without the USA, and the second reason being is that for pretty much every Serb Kosovo is holy land. They will never recognize Kosovo, it's simple as that. The only reason our politicians are talking with Albanian politicians is purely to join the EU. If there isn't peace between the Serbs and the Albanians, it's going to be hard for Serbia to enter the EU.
Albanians in Preshevo and Bujanovac also have their political parties, but they're not pretending and refusing to accept the fact that they are in Serbia and not a part of Kosovo.
Because Serbia was never Albanian.
Action reaction indeed. KLA LIBERTY FIGHTERS didn't start a war for the hell of it. Your president Slobodan Milosevic was the one trying to wipe out Albanian existence in Kosovo.
I can't believe you have the nerves to say that. Do you really want me to list out the massacres you caused on civilians during the Kosovo War? Or are you trying to imply that the fact that a war started you can kill all civilians in sight?
Liberty fighters my ass. It's sad to see that you can't accept that the KLA is a terrorist group which is recognized internationally. It's one of the biggest criminal groups of the Balkan. Mass murders, organ trade (with cases of organs being obtained from a body of an alive person), narcotics trade, arms trade etc. Even funnier is that Hashim Thaci was a / the leader and has recently been nominated for the nobel peace price :lol:
As for Serb crimes against Albanians, you can't say that the Albanians are innocent and have been hurt by the Serbs.
If you are, that's pathetic. The Albanians were the ones to start conflicts by launching attacks on law enforcements. Many Serbs have been killed, organs removed and until the day of today Albanian kids are taught to hate Serbs and discriminate them in any way possible.
It's a fact that you expelled more than were allowed. But you are trying to avoid the fact and keep implying how bad it was that Tito let Albanians into Kosovo, only because it rules in your favour. That my friend is not a way to debate.
I never said that Tito did wrong by allowing Albanians into Kosovo. Nobody could predict what would happen.
History has taught us however that it was a bad move. Albanians on Kosovo proclaimed Kosovo an independent state and Serbs are now being massively discriminated there.
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You watched one documentary and read a couple of articles on wikipedia and feel that you are the genius of Balkan history, however only common sense is needed to figure out that America wouldn't have been able to do anything to Yugoslavian states if they didn't allow it. Yugoslavia didn't need any benefits from United States until there wasn't anyone to keep everyone together. While we were pointing weapons at each other (which is what they were waiting for), United States already had Yugoslavia in their hands.
Sorry to drop in like this but lets be realistic there are people who control all the from the shadows, they pick who makes the governments and in case there picks don't win they do things like in Serbia,Libya now Ukraine America and EU are making a financial boost to Ukraine but under condition that the Opposition wins the elections i call that a pay out for there part, you cant say "America wouldn't have been able to do anything to Yugoslavian states if they didn't allow it" there are bad apples everywhere who will sell there nation,family,friends for money.
P.S there are so much deals that the public don't even imagine happening that were made, some Power hungry people reduced peoples lives to a statistic number, or even worse into a tool taht will bring them some goal so many civilians were killed by who knows who to frame the other side and that happens in all wars, just balkan as a cradle of nations with so much different nations and races escalated so much and so fast.
I can say that i'm just a student but i did a lot of research on this subject for some personal reasons and after few years made a conclusion, that this war was so much grim that i stopped looking any further into this subject, and i doubt i will ever start again i found answers to who and how killed a big part of my family after that i'm disgusted every time i see a "Liberation war or mass protests for a Better future"
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^ Pretty much said it all but hate won't stop, unfortunately.
That being said, I withdraw myself from this argument because it won't bring anything in the end, one argument will come to another argument and there's basically no ending.
Enjoy.
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Then,what is Macedonia? :rolleyes:
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Macedonia is Sierra Leone.
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To original poster: Want to understand the problem talk to people from all of the different countries of former Yugoslavia and then form your own opinion of the matter. Weight of Chains is a good start from the point of view of Serbians. After watching that I'd suggest you talk to some Croatians.
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To original poster: Want to understand the problem talk to people from all of the different countries of former Yugoslavia and then form your own opinion of the matter. Weight of Chains is a good start from the point of view of Serbians. After watching that I'd suggest you talk to some Croatians.
Just because a Serb shared you the movie Weight of Chains doesnt mean its from Serbian view. Every Yugoslav from all corners of ex-Yugoslavia who's real and non-biased will tell you that at least 98 percent of everything said in the movie is the truth about Yugoslavia. Cause those are facts.
I agree with the rest of your reply.
Ps- Dont have time now, I'll write on this subject soon.
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Well in our school they taught us one sidedly, very fucking one sidedly.
Our teachers story;
Slovenia was in Yugoslavia > they had high education levels and grounds that were full of farmers so they gave away all the farming goods that they have made to the other people in Balkan; at this point I just thought that my teacher was a brainwashed prick who doesn't have anything better to do than annoy other balkan states, but I digress;> Slovenia wanted to free itself > Serbia didn't want Slovenia to free itself > War
And that is when I felt brainwashed as a American figuring out about NSA.. So our teacher might not be the brightest, Thus Slovenians are half assed still, some of them think they're Balkanian, some think they have achieved some sort of fucking enlightenment since we were under Austro-Ogerska. So in our part of Yugoslavia some think we are Balkanian, some think we belong under the higher classed representatives as in we are close to Italy, but as we are a small country all that happens is transportation through our roads to every other state. We had a war to free ourselves for a reason because (now again I'm talking out of my teachers mouth here because he brainwashed me) Serbs stole from us, strangely enough the teacher did not mention anyone else than Serbia, but fuck it.
And don't get me started on Kosovo, I haven't read the entirety of this topic, because I don't even want to know if anyone has started talking about Kosovo, poking at that subject is like poking at a nuke with a long stick of dynamite, you might run away but holy fuck will there be a fight behind you.
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Unless you study something for a while and pick up information on your own free time and at your own will, you will never get accurate information, because there is no country that doesn't give you brainwashed information on a certain topic.
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@Jaka_Lah
"War" between Serbia and Slovenia lasted 10 days ( that's Ten) and it never took large proportions.. Slovenian separated army attacked barracks and military column that were retreating, I remember that they used to pull out young solider's from tanks and executed them on sight.If our government wanted a conflict and your resources trust me it wouldn't end on that.
And I don't know what resources Serbia took from Slovenia, you emerged like the most prosperous country after the decomposition of Yugoslavia.
Basically I got nothing against Slovenians, one thing I don't like over there is people (mostly young) who are trying in every way to distant them self from there Slavic roots and what not, but sadly that's not the case just in Slovenia.
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Well I mean I can't hate anyone for trying to avoid being known as a Slavic, but it is in our damn name. But historically speaking we weren't even fucked that much by Balkan and Yugoslavia, seeing how because we were forced by Avstro-Ogerska to fight with the central powers.. and lost the italians who we thought were our friends signed a pact with the UK that if they win they can take some land, it ended up being 30% of Slovenia, the italian troops came through the borders, but did not stop at the designated 5%, they went and pushed their borders too far, but the UK government did not give a singular fuck, than a conflict started between italy and slovenia and we pushed them back to their 5%, well we didn't get one major city back, you might know it as Trieste, and mentioning Trieste in slovenia starts the same conflict as mentioning Kosovo in Serbia. And even though we came out relatively sucsessful after the departure our culture is screwed up as our people were always this piece of land that people would hold, in ww1 we were overtaken by italians thus a lot of west parts speak italian, also northern people speak austrian because we lost a lot of land to Austria, well we took some Hungarian land but that was all one city. In WW2 we were invaded through Austria, actually got visited by hitler who's only words on slovenian land were "Make this german". Some people sided with fascists, some with nazis, some thought they were freedom fighters so they sided with Partisans, in the end family members murdered each other.. literally, from my mothers side two brothers one sided with Fascists and one with Partisans shot... actually speared each other, it was a cultural shock that still lasts to this day..
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No need to start the brother killing brother war talk, I think we patented that...Starting from the ones that turned to Islam under the pressure of the turks and those who turned to Catholicism.
Never the less some Slovenians are acting like they are from bloody USA, accepting the west but I know when ever I bump into them, no mater if that is Barcelona,Cannes,Vienna or Belgrade they know, for example, more about our showbiz singers and there sleazy songs then I do :D
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Hmm... So interesting.
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This topic is ready to be locked. As I said, all you will get is biased answers. For Albanians - Serbs are fault, for Serbs - Albanians are fault.
Biggest point here is - Kosovo is Bondsteel with sad people around it. Serbs are living in they imagination land where Kosovo is still Serbia, and Albanains are living in their imagination land where Kosovo is free and independent. Yea ofc, they can't move a toe without asking USA first. Most of factories and mines are in hands of EU and USA if I am correct.
Funniest part will be - you can find a bank and fast car in Kosovo on every corner but unemployment there is at highest rate then anywhere in Europe. Human and drugs (and organs) trafficking are best business there... Nice "country" you got there...
Totally supported how to call a mod to lock this up?
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This topic is ready to be locked.
Yeah I mean why contain subjects like this when it's clearly easier to moderate them in other topics that aren't specificly made for it, what a great idea, I need to call gandalf to promote you.
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Yeah I mean why contain subjects like this when it's clearly easier to moderate them in other topics that aren't specificly made for it, what a great idea, I need to call gandalf to promote you.
a vidim da si neki nas drkos..bravo svaka cast covek je obejktivan i lepo je rekao a ti tako...bravo sta da ti kazem :)
MODs lock this topic, its never ending, its full of hatred and arguments about brother killing a brother...just lock or delete this topic, i'm asking you very nicely :):)
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Oh my god, chillax and relax while watching this relaxed Serbian:
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/281/837/986.gif)
Admins please lock this thread, from an informative thread it has began into a political arguing.
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a vidim da si neki nas drkos..bravo svaka cast covek je obejktivan i lepo je rekao a ti tako...bravo sta da ti kazem :)
Thank god I didn't understand any of that
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Thank god I didn't understand any of that
How did you report his post for provoking, then?
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How did you report his post for provoking, then?
A lot of googling and asking my brother what it meant, and than more googling, ended up asking a serbian friend on skype.