Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 02:40:54 pm

Title: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 02:40:54 pm
Well when double standards were mentioned on another topic, staff didn't seem to know what we were talking about and topic got closed, so i wanted to continue discussion in order to find solutions to this problem. I got a lot of examples of this but i'll rather not post them because certain people might get offended.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Sandi on November 15, 2014, 03:07:44 pm
Hopefully we will find a solution
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: [NP]Monte Montague on November 15, 2014, 03:29:09 pm
Well when double standards were mentioned on another topic, staff didn't seem to know what we were talking about and topic got closed, so i wanted to continue discussion in order to find solutions to this problem. I got a lot of examples of this but i'll rather not post them because certain people might get offended.

I don't even...
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 03:38:37 pm
Whats the problem monte?
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Acika on November 15, 2014, 04:48:09 pm
On what double standards are you pointing on ? :rofl:
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 05:09:31 pm
The way admins punish.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Huntsman on November 15, 2014, 05:42:13 pm
The double standarts is a relaly big issue in this community IMO, throughout my three years of service here I saw them everywhere, starting from ARPD ending with the Admin team.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Brian on November 15, 2014, 06:57:54 pm
Topic unlocked, players have the right to show their concerns if they do it in a proper manner.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: stormeus on November 15, 2014, 07:11:08 pm
It would be easier to discuss this if someone would kindly elaborate on what double standards are being enforced instead of parroting "there are double standards."

1. Who is creating/enforcing double standards?
2. What group is being treated more leniently and why?
3. What group is being treated more harshly and why?
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 07:17:09 pm
I'm talking about the staff having double standards when it comes to punishing (does not include every staff member, ofcourse).
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Acika on November 15, 2014, 07:25:20 pm
It would be easier to discuss this if someone would kindly elaborate on what double standards are being enforced instead of parroting "there are double standards."

1. Who is creating/enforcing double standards?
2. What group is being treated more leniently and why?
3. What group is being treated more harshly and why?
1.
-Every admin has it's own rules/they understand and apply rules differently.
-They used or still are part of the group which they protect. Example: Cyril - Ballas; Devin, Abe, Charlie.. - Corleone; Rest - protecting cops
That's probably not itentional but its happening often because its natural and stronger than them.
2. Read answer 1.
3. Enemies of groups listed in answer 1.

Here's one fresh example:
Ballas come in front of Luciano HQ, Luciano get banned. Lucianos come to GS9, Luciano get banned.

I've experienced that many times because my group has a rule to never attack first and on the end its always our fault.
While i was playing this didnt change. I hope that next generation will feel some changes for the good of the server.
 
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: ssaammee on November 15, 2014, 07:27:32 pm
I'm talking about the staff having double standards when it comes to punishing (does not include every staff member, ofcourse).

I wouldn't mind hearing you explain that in nuanced words.
I see it like this: Admins are actually ignoring many different rulebreaks. Some are rougher than others.
But I understand why two friends goofing around killing the other didn't end up with the same punishment as a family DMing another IC.


This shootout rule is put aside.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Acika on November 15, 2014, 07:34:29 pm
I wouldn't mind hearing you explain that in nuanced words.
I see it like this: Admins are actually ignoring many different rulebreaks. Some are rougher than others.
But I understand why two friends goofing around killing the other didn't end up with the same punishment as a family DMing another IC.


This shootout rule is put aside.
It has nothing to do with ur example.
Here's one example for you.

Abe calls Jovanca a f**king twat and asshole then he bans him.
Jovanca is banned and Abe is still an admin because it was perfectly fine to do what he did.

And regarding your group go on that families and gangs at war topic there you have it better explained.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 07:35:16 pm
i've had different experiences, not same as those acika mentioned, but still the double standards were obviously present. if some1 wants to hear, i can pm some of my examples, but i wont post them here because some people might get offended.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Acika on November 15, 2014, 07:38:11 pm
i've had different experiences, not same as those acika mentioned, but still the double standards were obviously present. if some1 wants to hear, i can pm some of my examples, but i wont post them here because some people might get offended.
Why ? Topic is unlocked to point on those doing wrong for the good of the server.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Kostas on November 15, 2014, 07:38:50 pm
Do you seriously think that this is going to change anything???
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: PulseEffect on November 15, 2014, 07:40:35 pm
The double standarts is a relaly big issue in this community IMO, throughout my three years of service here I saw them everywhere, starting from ARPD ending with the Admin team.

My thoughts exactly...
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 07:45:26 pm
we can atleast try
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: [Rstar]Peter on November 15, 2014, 07:54:57 pm
Conspiracy theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory)...
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: [NP]Monte Montague on November 15, 2014, 07:57:27 pm
Rest assured you will get the change you want.
All you have to do is go make your own community and you'll be free =D

Until then suffer!
Bwahahahahahahaha


No... but srsly


this thread will not achieve anything.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Acika on November 15, 2014, 07:59:50 pm
Rest assured you will get the change you want.
All you have to do is go make your own community and you'll be free =D

Until then suffer!
Bwahahahahahahaha


No... but srsly


this thread will not achieve anything.
Of course it wont, but it cant get worse than this  :)
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Marcel on November 15, 2014, 08:03:21 pm
Good to see a thread where this issue can be discussed in a civil manner. I hope that something good will come out.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: ssaammee on November 15, 2014, 08:06:11 pm
Saying admins suck!!1! will never solve anything. Sure, this community has its dark areas, like any community. Calm down and come with something concrete if you really want a change.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Pandalink on November 15, 2014, 08:10:26 pm
I don't think a single thread is going to change what has been true for over half a decade here and for much longer on any other gaming server, chat room, workplace, school, etc (insert any moderated/regulated environment here).

It's just human nature to support those you're closer to. It's the reason having a reasonable number of criminal admins alongside the many cop admins back in the day was a good idea, because they balance each other and discuss issues more evenly (e.g. in admin chat) before committing to a course of action.
Without that, you have people making shitty judgement calls because nobody is there to tell them that they're wrong. This is true for any given group - criminals, cops, Corleones, Ballas, ARPD groups, you name it. There's a reason that groups with no admins in their leadership were generally weak and ineffective - they got screwed constantly with nobody to defend them or explain their actions.

Balance is what you need. However, to achieve that balance you must acknowledge the existence of bias to start with.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Devin on November 15, 2014, 08:19:46 pm
It always seems to be the banned players that state administration are bias and corrupt.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 08:20:00 pm
Rest assured you will get the change you want.
All you have to do is go make your own community and you'll be free =D

Until then suffer!
Bwahahahahahahaha


No... but srsly


this thread will not achieve anything.

neither will negative comments

Saying admins suck!!1! will never solve anything. Sure, this community has its dark areas, like any community. Calm down and come with something concrete if you really want a change.

if that was pointed at me - i never said that any of admins suck.

I don't think a single thread is going to change what has been true for over half a decade here and for much longer on any other gaming server, chat room, workplace, school, etc (insert any moderated/regulated environment here).

It's just human nature to support those you're closer to. It's the reason having a reasonable number of criminal admins alongside the many cop admins back in the day was a good idea, because they balance each other and discuss issues more evenly (e.g. in admin chat) before committing to a course of action.
Without that, you have people making shitty judgement calls because nobody is there to tell them that they're wrong. This is true for any given group - criminals, cops, Corleones, Ballas, ARPD groups, you name it. There's a reason that groups with no admins in leadership were generally weak and ineffective - they got screwed constantly with nobody to defend them or explain their actions.

Balance is what you need. However, to achieve that balance you must acknowledge the existence of bias to start with.
Achieve that and you're on your way to success.

there has to be a line which must not be crossed, i dont everything can be perfect here but things can get better and its up to us to make them better or worse. if admins can't separate their duty from their personal wishes they should either step back and let others handle or be objective and do what has to be done.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Kostas on November 15, 2014, 08:43:51 pm
It always seems to be the banned players that state administration are bias and corrupt.

I'm not banned, and I've never been.
Admins are biased

Something else I'd like to note out, ever heard about chain reactions? When a single action leads to a set of reactions which could also form a line? Well let me explain this. Administrator X warns/says to player Y that he did something which he clearly didn't. Y gets upset coz he didn't do anything so starts behaving in an offensive way. X further punishes Y because of his reaction to his wrong action...
Think about that before you issue a punishment because of a reaction...
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 08:53:29 pm
It always seems to be the banned players that state administration are bias and corrupt.

take a look at my in-game stated ban reason, and look into my ban issued by megamidget few months ago, the irony
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Mikal on November 15, 2014, 09:07:09 pm
I once got told not to talk 00C in /em because the admin "doesn't like it".
I once got warned for calling cops "pigs" in /l because it was "flaming groups".
I once got temp banned for "trolling" for /ad news reporting about a very senior member car killing citizens with a tank.

Double standards and made up rules are common within the administration, these examples I stated all happend in a single month.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Slavik on November 15, 2014, 09:16:01 pm
First /em is not OOC chat.
Second Calling cops "pigs" is an insult so if you were warned for that, good.
Should read the rules.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Devin on November 15, 2014, 09:17:34 pm
Admins are biased

Players are biased in that sense then.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: stormeus on November 15, 2014, 09:28:23 pm
Second Calling cops "pigs" is an insult so if you were warned for that, good.

If this is supposed to be a roleplaying game then we can't start shitting out rainbows and unicorns on every street corner. If the word "pigs" (an insult that is 10000% less harmful than calling someone a "f**k-headed shit nigga on ice") is used in a roleplay context by criminals in reference to police, how is that supposed to be a personal insult?
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Acika on November 15, 2014, 09:30:26 pm
I like it how HQ is trying to hide the real picture of double standards by posting random posts which are not related to the theme instead of constructive feedback to players.
That's maybe the reason why nothing changes. They are the ones who can make them yet they seem not to care or they just simply want to ignore them.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 09:30:54 pm
Players are biased in that sense then.

guess who has more power to abuse
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Huntsman on November 15, 2014, 09:33:25 pm
It always seems to be the banned players that state administration are bias and corrupt.

Because the ones that are not don't want to end up being banned.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Axison on November 15, 2014, 09:33:48 pm
Second Calling cops "pigs" is an insult
Sorry but what the actual f**k are you talking about?

If its used in a roleplaying context then admins have no right to punish as it isn't their matter.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Teddy on November 15, 2014, 09:36:00 pm
Everyone is by nature biased. It's chemistry. It's psychology.

I'm taking a newer initiative with DayZ to include full transparency and this transparency will eventually extend to TeamSpeak. If you ask me, admins should be held to a higher standard and face more immediate and harsh punishments when infringements are made.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Marcel on November 15, 2014, 09:40:33 pm
It always seems to be the banned players that state administration are bias and corrupt.

Has it occured to you that some of these bans might have been issued under very questionable circumstances? To me, it shows a great attitude that even these players still want to help the community by bringing up this topic in a constructive way.

But as always, this message will be met with condescending responses from staff. Mark my words.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Devin on November 15, 2014, 09:44:27 pm
What is the point of this topic?
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 09:49:08 pm
Everyone is by nature biased. It's chemistry. It's psychology.

I'm taking a newer initiative with DayZ to include full transparency and this transparency will eventually extend to TeamSpeak. If you ask me, admins should be held to a higher standard and face more immediate and harsh punishments when infringements are made.

exactly, everyone is biased by nature, but admin team should be made of those players who can separate their personal stuff from their duties, and who will know the difference between their feelings and actual problem.

i dont think that admins should have more harsh punishments, in fact, i think they should spend more time trying to solve the actual problems than just using a command to punish a player.

What is the point of this topic?

so i wanted to continue discussion in order to find solutions to this problem..

trying to improve something, what is the point of this question tho?
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Devin on November 15, 2014, 09:51:21 pm
What exactly are you wanting to solve/gain from this topic? What is the conclusion that you are wanting to see come to life?
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Kessu on November 15, 2014, 09:51:46 pm
Second Calling cops "pigs" is an insult so if you were warned for that, good.
What the actual fuck? If an admin on my server punished someone for calling cops "pigs" in roleplay manner, the admin would be warned for being a retard.

That is definiatly not a rulebreak, only butthurt twats would punish for word "pigs" and the admin should definiatly not be an admin.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Plam_Knight on November 15, 2014, 09:51:56 pm
exactly, everyone is biased by nature, but admin team should be made of those players who can separate their personal stuff from their duties, and who will know the difference between their feelings and actual problem.

i dont think that admins should have more harsh punishments, in fact, i think they should spend more time trying to solve the actual problems than just using a command to punish a player.

trying to improve something, what is the point of this question tho?

I hope you are aware, what you just said there is close to impossible to happen, unless you never play the game and you never interact with people, which will then beat the point of being an admin.

So pretty much unless you have absolutly no social life and you never step IG, just make calls from outside the game without even reading the forums, there is no way people can be unbias.

Even if you put people that speak about double standard up on the admin spot, they will still act bias. Each decision is based off your comperhanding of the situation, your logic and your feelings, therfore there is no way you can solve a situation without being bias.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Teddy on November 15, 2014, 09:52:41 pm
i think they should spend more time trying to solve the actual problems than just using a command to punish a player.

You haven't been an admin before have you. I left over this. Someone would report someone else, and you'd accept the report. Unless the reporter saw red text (punishment) on the screen they'd bitch at you and call you a terrible admin. On the other hand you do issue a punishment, and you have the reported bitching at you, calling you a terrible admin.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Marcel on November 15, 2014, 09:56:29 pm
What exactly are you wanting to solve/gain from this topic? What is the conclusion that you are wanting to see come to life?
I'll speak for myself now. What i'd like to see is:

- A revision of the rules to rule out any conflicting rules and carefully rephrase the words to make them easier to follow.
- Put all rules in one place (including rules for SAPD and FBI) so everyone knows those are the leading and most up-to-date rules.
- Transparent guidelines for staff so players can view it.
- Easier way of reporting any rulebreaks by staff. The current way (e-mail [email protected]) is just not transparent enough because many players have the idea that it is either not taken seriously, they don't get enough feedback or no feedback at all.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Mikal on November 15, 2014, 09:58:16 pm
First /em is not for those without brains: chat.
What?
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 10:03:21 pm
What exactly are you wanting to solve/gain from this topic? What is the conclusion that you are wanting to see come to life?

i'm waiting for you to actually do something instead of being sarcastic when answering to everything people post when they want to see improvement on the server.

I hope you are aware, what you just said there is close to impossible to happen, unless you never play the game and you never interact with people, which will then beat the point of being an admin.

So pretty much unless you have absolutly no social life and you never step IG, just make calls from outside the game without even reading the forums, there is no way people can be unbias.

Even if you put people that speak about double standard up on the admin spot, they will still act bias. Each decision is based off your comperhanding of the situation, your logic and your feelings, therfore there is no way you can solve a situation without being bias.

You haven't been an admin before have you. I left over this. Someone would report someone else, and you'd accept the report. Unless the reporter saw red text (punishment) on the screen they'd bad girl at you and call you a terrible admin. On the other hand you do issue a punishment, and you have the reported bad girling at you, calling you a terrible admin.

i do not expect every admin on the server to be perfect when making a desicion, but i see admins every day closing their eyes to people rule breaking, on the other side, iMarkz, in my personal opinion the best staff member on this server - no offense to the others, has never been biased, atleast not that i know.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Devin on November 15, 2014, 10:09:54 pm
- A revision of the rules to rule out any conflicting rules and carefully rephrase the words to make them easier to follow.

So a bible worth of rules, how's about we add common sense to the rules and that way we can pray that players will think before they act?

- Put all rules in one place (including rules for SAPD and FBI) so everyone knows those are the leading and most up-to-date rules.

That lies entirely on SAPD and FBI whether they wish to have their rules posted in the public, many have the mindset that if you have the rules visible to those they do not apply to, other players will look at the rules to try cause arguments/justify why a player can't do something.

- Transparent guidelines for staff so players can view it.

Staff are not working off of some sort of "Book" but their own knowledge and understanding of the rules. Simple examples of problems and solutions to them are provided to the staff.
However their manner of dealing with rulebreaking is up to them.

- Easier way of reporting any rulebreaks by staff. The current way (e-mail [email protected]) is just not transparent enough because many players have the idea that it is either not taken seriously, they don't get enough feedback or no feedback at all.

We have been discussing and planning another method of filing reports instead of the [email protected] email address. One that will not require any emails being sent.



i'm waiting for you to actually do something instead of being sarcastic when answering to everything people post when they want to see improvement on the server.

So I ask what you want and you think I am being sarcastic, I see no reason to try and answer you with any details then.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Teddy on November 15, 2014, 10:10:51 pm
i do not expect every admin on the server to be perfect when making a desicion, but i see admins every day closing their eyes to people rule breaking, on the other side, iMarkz, in my personal opinion the best staff member on this server - no offense to the others, has never been biased, atleast not that i know.

Think about it from an admin perspective. What's the point? You punish people, they do it again, they get banned. They get unbanned with little to no effort. Everyone knows exactly what to say to get unbanned now. There is no such thing as a perm ban. It really is discouraging as an admin to constantly deal with the same people over and over again breaking the same rules they've been banned for over and over.

You are being biased right now. Blame the admins only. The problem is two sided.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: stormeus on November 15, 2014, 10:14:29 pm
So a bible worth of rules, how's about we add common sense to the rules and that way we can pray that players will think before they act?

"How about we add some transparent guidelines to the forum, that way we can pray that admins will think before they act."

If I said that to an admin right now I'd be muted, kicked or tempbanned, so how about that for a double standard.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Slavik on November 15, 2014, 10:18:32 pm
If this is supposed to be a roleplaying game then we can't start shitting out rainbows and unicorns on every street corner. If the word "pigs" (an insult that is 10000% less harmful than calling someone a "f**k-headed shit nigga on ice") is used in a roleplay context by criminals in reference to police, how is that supposed to be a personal insult?

If the word "pig" is used in a role play then it might be fine, but if the cop felt offended by that, admins has every right to tell you or anyone else to stop calling cops 'pigs"

a "f**k-headed shit nigga on ice")

You feel insulted by that????
/report!!!!


What the actual f**k? If an admin on my server punished someone for calling cops "pigs" in roleplay manner, the admin would be warned for being a retard.

That is definiatly not a rulebreak, only butthurt twats would punish for word "pigs" and the admin should definiatly not be an admin.

The thing is most people do it without any damn Role play at all, you have no idea how many times I've see nit happen.

And as I said, if it's in a RP manner then it's fine, but if people feel offended, then we will tell you not to call them that.

Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Cyril on November 15, 2014, 10:19:02 pm
They get unbanned with little to no effort. Everyone knows exactly what to say to get unbanned now. There is no such thing as a perm ban.

It's not so simple to get unbanned if you have been banned previously already.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 10:20:28 pm
Think about it from an admin perspective. What's the point? You punish people, they do it again, they get banned. They get unbanned with little to no effort. Everyone knows exactly what to say to get unbanned now. There is no such thing as a perm ban. It really is discouraging as an admin to constantly deal with the same people over and over again breaking the same rules they've been banned for over and over.

You are being biased right now. Blame the admins only. The problem is two sided.

you probably dont know some things i know, and i obviously do not know some things you do, and no i'm not being biased, every member of community has to do something to get improvement, but right now i'm talking about admins not giving the same treatemant to everyone.

So a bible worth of rules, how's about we add common sense to the rules and that way we can pray that players will think before they act?

That lies entirely on SAPD and FBI whether they wish to have their rules posted in the public, many have the mindset that if you have the rules visible to those they do not apply to, other players will look at the rules to try cause arguments/justify why a player can't do something.

Staff are not working off of some sort of "Book" but their own knowledge and understanding of the rules. Simple examples of problems and solutions to them are provided to the staff.
However their manner of dealing with rulebreaking is up to them.

We have been discussing and planning another method of filing reports instead of the [email protected] email address. One that will not require any emails being sent.



So I ask what you want and you think I am being sarcastic, I see no reason to try and answer you with any details then.

ye devin, what i want is to see everyone on the server being even, rulebreak is a rulebreak, performed by any player on the server it's still a rulebreak
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: jovanca on November 15, 2014, 10:28:58 pm
It's not so simple to get unbanned if you have been banned previously already.

ive been banned few times too many, i guess. but right now i really don't understand why i was banned at first, altho i do understand why i'm still banned, but what i do not understand, even tho i dont want Abe to get punished, is him not getting punished. few months ago i said to my friend that an admin is a fool, and got banned for that, now an when i got offended called a fucking asshole and a fucking twat, the one who called me that didn't get punished and, i can just assume, cos he's an admin. this is a great example of double standards on argonath
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Stivi on November 15, 2014, 10:31:17 pm
First /em is not for those without brains: chat.
Second Calling cops "pigs" is an insult so if you were warned for that, good.
Should read the rules.
You tell someone "dont impersionate god!" when he said "im god" instead of "im good".
"pigs" is a slang. Slang can be used in RP, duh. You should read rules.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Acika on November 15, 2014, 10:33:07 pm
Staff are not working off of some sort of "Book" but their own knowledge and understanding of the rules. Simple examples of problems and solutions to them are provided to the staff.
However their manner of dealing with rulebreaking is up to them.
Here, you said it yourself. That's the whole problem. Every admin understands existing rules differently and that's how they apply them. On top of that you have bunch of made up rules which are applied too.
Some admins can't use common sense and that's where it all begins.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Cyril on November 15, 2014, 10:35:16 pm
Here, you said it yourself. That's the whole problem. Every admin understands existing rules differently and that's how they apply them. On top of that you have bunch of made up rules which are applied too.
Some admins can't use common sense and that's where it all begins.

That's not the problem as it's intended to work like that. Every admin is selected for his qualities. If we wanted them to follow a rulebook without thinking or using their experience, we would recruit anyone.
Title: Re: Double Standards discussion
Post by: Devin on November 15, 2014, 10:35:30 pm
If you have a problem with my staff, send me a Forum PM or an email to [email protected].
This topic just looks to me like an argument about my staff.
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