Argonath RPG - A World of its own

Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => World and local news => Topic started by: Alsatian on August 24, 2012, 03:53:18 pm

Title: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Alsatian on August 24, 2012, 03:53:18 pm
"Two people have reportedly been shot dead after a gunman opened fire outside the Empire State Building on Friday morning.

A police source told Reuters two people had died and others had suffered injuries after shots rang out just before 9 a.m. by the New York monument.

It is believed at three or four people were shot before the NYPD swooped on the scene and shot the gunman dead."



Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2193065/Empire-State-Building-shooting-Five-people-shot-gunman-NYC.html#ixzz24TIUm2RY (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2193065/Empire-State-Building-shooting-Five-people-shot-gunman-NYC.html#ixzz24TIUm2RY)

Add another one to the ever growing list this year...
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on August 24, 2012, 05:56:47 pm
To my knowledge, the two dead include the gunman.
Title: 2 killed and 9 wounded in Empire State building shooting
Post by: Dolfagr on August 24, 2012, 06:59:50 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9497417/Empire-State-Building-shooting-two-killed.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9497417/Empire-State-Building-shooting-two-killed.html)

http://www.france24.com/en/20120824-shooting-wounds-several-new-york-usa-empire-state-building-crime (http://www.france24.com/en/20120824-shooting-wounds-several-new-york-usa-empire-state-building-crime)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/24/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-idUSBRE87N0M220120824 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/24/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-idUSBRE87N0M220120824)



Same book, different page.

Post Merge: August 24, 2012, 07:17:45 pm
Just noticed a topic is already out there, feel free to delete / lock  :D
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 24, 2012, 07:02:24 pm
Get fired, fire, get fired upon.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: FlameMan on August 24, 2012, 07:10:18 pm
Liberal weapon law in the USA ends with such situations....
Wondering when will they realize that.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Mashgash on August 24, 2012, 08:53:44 pm
Quote
Nine injured in gunfire - some might have been hit by police bullets
Another trigger happy cop.. :neutral:

This man entered the heart of NY and discharged a pistol. As a result he got shot to death.
Anders Breivik planted and detonated a bomb under Norway's government building and killed 69 teenagers. As a result he got 21 years in prison.
It is a wierd world we live in, people...
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 24, 2012, 08:56:01 pm
Liberal weapon law in the USA ends with such situations....
Wondering when will they realize that.
1. The whole country does not have the same laws regarding weapons.
2. The laws are not the reason for stupid people getting a hold of guns.
3. Liberal weapon laws can go both ways, depending on the country or place in question. Don't use them as an excuse for shootings. The majority isn't responsible for one's own actions that only that one person has control over.

Another trigger happy cop.. :neutral:
It was a shooting. The cop is not trigger happy...they weren't aiming at civilians. Try putting yourself into their shoes. You have one person with a gun somewhere in a large city area where a lot of people are at, people running and screaming everywhere, lots of vehicles speeding by, people bleeding on the ground, and you're spinning around with your gun out looking for the shooter before you become the next victim. Now tell me you wouldn't have any chance of accidentally shooting the wrong person...especially if they run in front of you when you're shooting at the gunman.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 24, 2012, 10:17:33 pm
1. The whole country does not have the same laws regarding weapons.
2. The laws are not the reason for stupid people getting a hold of guns.
3. Liberal weapon laws can go both ways, depending on the country or place in question. Don't use them as an excuse for shootings. The majority isn't responsible for one's own actions that only that one person has control over.
Actually the whole country is, as through having different laws without border control it facilitates one stupid person who wishes to act out of control.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 24, 2012, 10:20:44 pm
Actually the whole country is, as through having different laws without border control it facilitates one stupid person who wishes to act out of control.
Regardless of no unity in the laws, though, a person could still commit such a crime. If you make weapons hard to get, they just get them illegally. If you make them easy to get, they get them legally. It still doesn't stop them from getting them. It just changes the difficulty to obtain them. If they really want to go on a rampage, they will anyway.
Title: Re: 2 killed and 9 wounded in Empire State building shooting
Post by: JDC on August 25, 2012, 05:07:31 am
Topics merged.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 25, 2012, 10:34:42 am
Regardless of no unity in the laws, though, a person could still commit such a crime. If you make weapons hard to get, they just get them illegally. If you make them easy to get, they get them legally. It still doesn't stop them from getting them. It just changes the difficulty to obtain them. If they really want to go on a rampage, they will anyway.
The more difficult to obtain, the less chances that someone in a fit of rage decides to grab a gun and shoot.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Mark_DeCaval on August 25, 2012, 10:45:17 am
Argonath have very similiar gun laws, president knows they ain't perfect, still he won't change them, why? The crowd won't like it as they got used to weapons, also what if there will be zombie invasion?
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 25, 2012, 11:04:39 am
Argonath have very similiar gun laws, president knows they ain't perfect, still he won't change them, why? The crowd won't like it as they got used to weapons, also what if there will be zombie invasion?
Because we are not RL. ;)
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on August 25, 2012, 01:58:27 pm
I'm starting to think Dave Mustaine was right about Obama behind all this shit...  :redface:
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Alsatian on August 25, 2012, 02:04:23 pm
Regardless of no unity in the laws, though, a person could still commit such a crime. If you make weapons hard to get, they just get them illegally. If you make them easy to get, they get them legally. It still doesn't stop them from getting them. It just changes the difficulty to obtain them. If they really want to go on a rampage, they will anyway.

Of course people will be able to obtain weapons illegally, as is the case with any item. But, should people really be able to purchase assault rifles from local stores?
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Nathan on August 25, 2012, 07:41:36 pm
"Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers"

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

Great....
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Dolfagr on August 25, 2012, 10:38:23 pm
 Elite NYPD :wow:
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Kizzu on August 25, 2012, 10:56:07 pm
I'm starting to think Dave Mustaine was right about Obama behind all this shit...  :redface:

Waaaa?
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [WS]Jacob on August 25, 2012, 11:48:58 pm
It just gets worse for the NYPD...
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 26, 2012, 01:31:41 am
The more difficult to obtain, the less chances that someone in a fit of rage decides to grab a gun and shoot.
That could also be argued, because if everyone is carrying a weapon, not only are people less likely to shoot each other knowing the other person is "packing", but if it's a common knowledge in the area to operate the weapon, people are less likely to go on rampages with them, understanding how they work.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Alsatian on August 26, 2012, 01:41:28 am
That could also be argued, because if everyone is carrying a weapon, not only are people less likely to shoot each other knowing the other person is "packing", but if it's a common knowledge in the area to operate the weapon, people are less likely to go on rampages with them, understanding how they work.

So what, have everyone carry a weapon? That's your idea of safety? I would never feel safe in that kind of atmosphere.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 26, 2012, 01:44:52 am
So what, have everyone carry a weapon? That's your idea of safety? I would never feel safe in that kind of atmosphere.
How so? If everyone knows everyone has a gun, who's gonna try to get into a shootout? No one has an advantage, and thus no one feels more powerful with the weapon, rendering it basically useless. It's been proved in other countries, but it only works if it's fully supported.

Everyone not having access to weapons would work the same way in a perfect world, but our world is far from perfect, and thus people will try to obtain them anyway for that same power advantage.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Alsatian on August 26, 2012, 02:01:05 am
How so? If everyone knows everyone has a gun, who's gonna try to get into a shootout? No one has an advantage, and thus no one feels more powerful with the weapon, rendering it basically useless. It's been proved in other countries, but it only works if it's fully supported.

A normal day out would be incredibly tense, and I for one would be constantly fretting over the possibility that some guy who's been having a rather bad day might snap, realise he has a gun and decide to express his anger through violent means.

I understand this is not a perfect world - it's far from it - but the solution is not putting a gun in the hand of every civilian to defend themselves in the event that someone goes on a killing rampage. People are still going to die, with the only difference being that such events are going to end more often in shootouts.

It's a difficult situation, as even increasing the police presence proves problematic, as we can see from the Empire shootings where the victims were all wounded by officers who have training in handling a firearm. I'm not putting blame on the officers, but just try and imagine armed civilians trying to take down someone (or even multiple people) opening fire in public - the crossfire could take more lives than it saves.

Still, a good start would be increasing the difficulty of obtaining weapons. At least remove them from local shops.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 26, 2012, 02:31:58 am
A normal day out would be incredibly tense, and I for one would be constantly fretting over the possibility that some guy who's been having a rather bad day might snap, realise he has a gun and decide to express his anger through violent means.
More people in today's world have a weapon than you think. There's no reason to fear anything like that. If anything, you would have a better chance of being protected from such incidents because of it.

As for "snapping", people who usually go on these kinds of rampages have mental or psychological reasons that usually can be found long before they purchase the weapon to begin with. The problem is that with the ever-changing and varying gun laws across the United States, it's not difficult to obtain a weapon without having a mental evaluation done on you.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Wolfe on August 26, 2012, 03:30:43 am
More people in today's world have a weapon than you think. There's no reason to fear anything like that. If anything, you would have a better chance of being protected from such incidents because of it.

As for "snapping", people who usually go on these kinds of rampages have mental or psychological reasons that usually can be found long before they purchase the weapon to begin with. The problem is that with the ever-changing and varying gun laws across the United States, it's not difficult to obtain a weapon without having a mental evaluation done on you.

The police exist to arrest criminals with guns, not other civilians, imagine someone robbing a store, and the police arrive, and there's 2 fucking robbers being shot by 4 civilians who have no practice whatsoever on doing that type of shit, it'd end up in a mess and innocent people dying.


We're past the fucking cowboy era ^^
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 26, 2012, 03:46:40 am
The police exist to arrest criminals with guns, not other civilians, imagine someone robbing a store, and the police arrive, and there's 2 f**king robbers being shot by 4 civilians who have no practice whatsoever on doing that type of shit, it'd end up in a mess and innocent people dying.


We're past the f**king cowboy era ^^
What you just described is 2 robbers and a couple cops with guns, and people working in the store that don't carry them. That is not at all what I described.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on August 26, 2012, 06:54:53 am
just because youre allowed to carry a gun doesn't mean you can press 2 to go to vigilante mode LOL.


if you ever carry a gun, youll understand the how safe you actually feel. if you don't have a gun in the house, you would not even remotely know what it's like therefore, you are unable to judge whether you feel safer or not with guns not around.

picture this, you're chasing some guy who just killed someone. all of a sudden, he opens fire at you. behind him is this and you must do what you have to do to stay alive.

(http://artobserved.com/artimages/2010/05/Scott-Campbell-Opening-at-OHWOW-NYC-Crowd-41.jpg)
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: StanTheMan on August 30, 2012, 06:21:41 am
Well I watched the video and they handled it pretty safely... I don't see how anyone can blame the cops for shooting him.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [WS]Jacob on August 30, 2012, 12:30:52 pm
He opens fire at you. behind him is this and you must do what you have to do to stay alive.

(http://artobserved.com/artimages/2010/05/Scott-Campbell-Opening-at-OHWOW-NYC-Crowd-41.jpg)
Police primarily use the firearm to protect themselves, but it's also about protecting the bystanders too.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 30, 2012, 01:25:36 pm
just because youre allowed to carry a gun doesn't mean you can press 2 to go to vigilante mode LOL.


if you ever carry a gun, youll understand the how safe you actually feel. if you don't have a gun in the house, you would not even remotely know what it's like therefore, you are unable to judge whether you feel safer or not with guns not around.

picture this, you're chasing some guy who just killed someone. all of a sudden, he opens fire at you. behind him is this and you must do what you have to do to stay alive.

(http://artobserved.com/artimages/2010/05/Scott-Campbell-Opening-at-OHWOW-NYC-Crowd-41.jpg)
If you are a cop do not chase but  instantly kill him.
If you are not, you have no business chasing him.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 30, 2012, 01:26:47 pm
That could also be argued, because if everyone is carrying a weapon, not only are people less likely to shoot each other knowing the other person is "packing", but if it's a common knowledge in the area to operate the weapon, people are less likely to go on rampages with them, understanding how they work.
According to your logic every passenger in a plane should carry a bomb, as that will reduce the likelyhood of a terorrist using one.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Mikal on August 30, 2012, 03:18:40 pm
According to your logic every passenger in a plane should carry a bomb, as that will reduce the likelyhood of a terorrist using one.
:lol: This is America's logic on guns..
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on August 30, 2012, 03:46:07 pm
According to your logic every passenger in a plane should carry a bomb, as that will reduce the likelyhood of a terorrist using one.
Unlike idiot terrorists, robbers do not want to die. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how to respond to this stupidity.

:lol: This is America's logic on guns..
I suppose you live in America and know exactly what it's like here? Or do you just follow what the media perceives America as?
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 30, 2012, 03:49:58 pm
Unlike idiot terrorists, robbers do not want to die. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how to respond to this stupidity.
I suppose you live in America and know exactly what it's like here? Or do you just follow what the media perceives America as?
I have been there enough to know a large number of good people is disturbed by a small amount of idiots. Mostly its the latter who promote guns.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on August 30, 2012, 11:47:09 pm
I have been there enough to know a large number of good people is disturbed by a small amount of idiots. Mostly its the latter who promote guns.
What places did you go in the US?
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 31, 2012, 01:22:44 am
According to your logic every passenger in a plane should carry a bomb, as that will reduce the likelyhood of a terorrist using one.
Not necessarily. Bombs create massive explosions that take out anything nearby with usually no intended target, but instead to cause incredible damage to everything nearby.

Guns aren't always meant for that purpose. If someone knows how to use them correctly and they practice safe usage of them, it can become a great tool in self-defense. Many Police Officers in various countries are an example of this. There are also numerous law-abiding citizens in gun clubs worldwide that don't go out and shoot at other people.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 31, 2012, 06:18:41 pm
What places did you go in the US?
Atlanta, NY,NJ,DC
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 31, 2012, 06:20:02 pm
Atlanta, NY,NJ,DC
Come to California! :D
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 31, 2012, 06:27:38 pm
Not necessarily. Bombs create massive explosions that take out anything nearby with usually no intended target, but instead to cause incredible damage to everything nearby.

Guns aren't always meant for that purpose. If someone knows how to use them correctly and they practice safe usage of them, it can become a great tool in self-defense. Many Police Officers in various countries are an example of this. There are also numerous law-abiding citizens in gun clubs worldwide that don't go out and shoot at other people.
It can be, however that is not the point. The point is that the laws allow everyone, including those who are not having knowledge of correct usage or practive regularly, to have one.
I am not at all against weapons, if the holder is duly trained, does regular practice and takes enough safety measures to avoid people accidentally getting access to them.
However I am against the idea that if every idiot can hold a gun, the amount of shootings and crime will go down. Even if a number of people will hold a gun when it is illegal, those who are not criminals but believe they need the feeling of safety will still take care not to get caugh, and there for use it with more thought as it will inevitably lead to them having to explain something to the police.
You can feel safe carrying a gun. But how safe do you feel when you realise that everyone else you meet could carry one as well, including guys that you will have to give bad news ?
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 31, 2012, 06:28:19 pm
Come to California! :D
Get me a job there and I move.  :razz:
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 31, 2012, 06:37:13 pm
Get me a job there and I move.  :razz:
Gotta get me one first! Unemployment is horrible here. :(
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Dark/Light on August 31, 2012, 06:43:02 pm
Come to California! :D

One day, one day... I love it there.

Not too sure what I feel about gun laws (or lack of them). I prefer things the way they are here in the UK, but if the law allowed us to, I would probably buy one.

Whenever I go to Vegas, I go to the gun shop to try some out. Guns are fun, but unfortunately it's the idiots who get hold of them that is the problem... Something that wouldn't be fixed if gun ownership became illegal (if they want one, they will get one).
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 31, 2012, 06:44:44 pm
Ironically towards my opinion about the gun laws, California, which is the state I live in, has the strictest laws in the country...and yet it has one of the highest rates of gun-related crime in the country too. I'd still rather own one to protect myself, and to use for recreational purposes, but that's a whole 'nother subject. :)

I am not at all against weapons, if the holder is duly trained, does regular practice and takes enough safety measures to avoid people accidentally getting access to them.
I think that's where we were confusing each other in this little debate. I'm in agreeance with you there. It's still possible to pull off in such a way where everyone can be educated and still legally carry, but the problem is the current laws are just a method of control more than anything else, so it makes such very difficult here.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on August 31, 2012, 06:53:34 pm
Guns are fun, but unfortunately it's the idiots who get hold of them that is the problem... Something that wouldn't be fixed if gun ownership became illegal (if they want one, they will get one).
Regardless of gun laws, if you want one you can get one. But that does not mean that removing the barrier to get one will not affect the usage.
Ironically towards my opinion about the gun laws, California, which is the state I live in, has the strictest laws in the country...and yet it has one of the highest rates of gun-related crime in the country too. I'd still rather own one to protect myself, and to use for recreational purposes, but that's a whole 'nother subject. :)
I think that's where we were confusing each other in this little debate. I'm in agreeance with you there. It's still possible to pull off in such a way where everyone can be educated and still legally carry, but the problem is the current laws are just a method of control more than anything else, so it makes such very difficult here.
But do not forget that even the strictest laws in the USA can not pass the rights people have been given by the Constitution. Wich means that a restriction as in Europe is not possible without changing some very basic rights, and it iwll be extremely hard to do so.
In most European countries, holding a gun is linked to obtaining a permit. One can obtain a permit for recreational purposes or for hunting (lots of hunting clubs in Moscow :lol:) and this is linked to a psychological and practical test of the weapon and its future owner.
Even then its at times not enough to stop people from creating similar shooting incidents, or from people getting one illegally. However a factor 10 regarding incidents should prove something here....
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on August 31, 2012, 07:00:21 pm
Well, unfortunately in California, they basically made it so people have no want to own a weapon unless they plan on committing a crime or being a cop, which at that point, you see where the crime statistics play a role. Some of the restrictions are absolutely ridiculous too. Things like handguns you must be over 21 to purchase, but you can buy shotguns and rifles at 16 or younger...and I don't mean the hunting varieties either.

Personally it just seems like my state is trying to do everything they can to get rid of all guns period...like that'd ever happen. :lol:
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on August 31, 2012, 10:39:52 pm
Atlanta, NY,NJ,DC
So you didn't see the real America, you only saw the tourist side of it?
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: Gandalf on September 01, 2012, 10:19:18 am
So you didn't see the real America, you only saw the tourist side of it?
Nope. Not just tourist trips, but business.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: saberman on September 01, 2012, 02:22:51 pm
How so? If everyone knows everyone has a gun, who's gonna try to get into a shootout? No one has an advantage, and thus no one feels more powerful with the weapon, rendering it basically useless.
Some idiots like killing people and end up getting killed. Taking out a weapon and shooting accurately so quickly when you hear the first shot isn't so easy, and the killer eventually get's a few people injured or dead.
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on September 01, 2012, 04:29:18 pm
Nope. Not just tourist trips, but business.
Never judge a country on it's tourist attractions.  :lol:
Title: Re: Empire State Building shooting
Post by: SugarD on September 02, 2012, 02:16:13 am
Some idiots like killing people and end up getting killed. Taking out a weapon and shooting accurately so quickly when you hear the first shot isn't so easy, and the killer eventually get's a few people injured or dead.
Although I agree with you, that wasn't what I meant by what I had said. ;)
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