SAPD running the show in RS5

[[NP]Monte Montague]

Hello,

I would like to know how and why SAPD is to run the Show in Rs5, particularly concerning the removal of "ARPD officers" entirely" and this resulting in all officers having to obey the real SAPD (who will now be known as the first tier SAPD, and the second still being "Freecops" - can't really get rid of it that easy)

I have long seen that SAPD does not indeed run the show in RS4, but many provisions are given to them by the developers so they can for example:
- Copban anyone they wish simply because they saw their technique as wrong, even tho it was justifiable.
- Moderator has to ask Unsus from Snr officer but cannot unsus them self.

It struggles at times to get its own affairs in order, let alone manage ARPD officers - which apparently they are not supposed to do but they try and do anyway.

For example, I would only be happy to follow ARPD Commissioner, heads of state, and only ever Chief of SAPD and FBI when it is in the spirit of good, and it's co-operation and not them trying to prevent me from roleplaying or trying to make me roleplay like them, i simply just drive off or don't follow them.

Information and opinion would be much obliged.

[Pingster]

If, in time or otherwise, everyone going on duty would be required to follow one police roleplay group's regulations, that would be extremely limiting to the current freedom of police roleplay. Argonath has always been about creativity, but suddenly we would have to follow set regulations (mind you, set by a roleplay group on who's views of policing you might not even agree with) leaving little room for your own and your friend's roleplay.

Example: There are suspects inside a building that is surrounded by police. There are 5 suspects, 8 SAPD officers and 5 ARPD officers. When it comes to breaching, whoever is highest rank among SAPD officer would gather his buddies from SAPD, tell ARPD to stay outside and breach themselves. If me and my friends have a roleplay going on where we are a highly trained assault team as well, it is ruined and our roleplay is limited to being a security guards, because we, apparently, have to follow SAPD's orders.

If you want to treat police equally, then do so by allowing equal chance to create your own, equally important, policing group, instead of handing all the power in hands of some, who might think that you are not skilled enough to do what your group's goals are to do, and gives you an order not to do it.

If me and my friends enjoy close quarter combat of indoors, we shouldn't be forced to:
Apply for SAPD (or whatever you are going to call the ranks above just going on /duty),
get accepted,
receive the rank of senior officer,
send a letter to SWAT,
get invited,
receive training,
get rank.

We should be allowed to just do it without fear of copban (which should be returned to being an admin command, but that's another story) for "not following direct orders" from someone you've never met much less made a decision to subject yourself to their command. How is this not ruining roleplay (ruins your police group) and/or forced roleplay (either sit outside here or be copbanned), both of which are against the server rules? How is being allowed to reliably perform same/similar duty as SWAT or FBI does only if you've passed some arbitrary scale equal opportunity?

Last I checked, all of these were just roleplay groups, official ones, I'll grant you that, but still roleplay groups. Roleplay groups who's own roleplay limits/ruins your, unofficial roleplay group's roleplay. Them having copban also permits them to ban you from roleplaying in your group, only because you're roleplaying same thing they are, without being part of them. Is this the equality you're aiming for?

Yes, I get it, you want all the police officers under one banner, so there's no treating ARPD officers differently from SAPD officers, but if that comes at the cost of roleplay, then please, remove SAPD instead, they can keep roleplay as they have, with imaginary ranks instead of scripted ranks. And everyone else can roleplay their own groups as well. And everyone would be treated the same, because you wouldn't know otherwise.

I honestly don't approve of being told by member of a roleplay group you're not part of to "either get on TS or no breach", or "don't breach, you stay outside", and failure to follow either of these would most likely end up with removal of tools to roleplay what you want - a damn police officer, not a security guard.

Imagine a Corleone telling a Luciano to get their ass out of Los Santos or they must no longer permit a single crime. It's the same thing here.

[Miller786]

Well said Pingster, i agree with all your points.
Escpecially, this is a damn game, so why on earth i would have to wait an year if i want to play as SWAT or FBI or all the other divisions coming in RS5, this has to come to an end.

[Pingster]

Also, on point of copban, the least you can do it remove from SAPD, but let FBI have it. Have all ARPD and SAPD reports go to them, as they're the ones supposed to look into police corruption and police breaking the law. I know it goes against my previous points of one roleplay group having power another, but I realise that president appointing a fully active commissioner who is going to look through every ARPD/SAPD report is unrealistic.

[Kirgiz]

Really well said, Pingster, I take my hat off. I was already a subject to some of this "abuse" of /copban command just because I didn't want to work the way of some........ outstanding individuals, so to speak. This should at once return to admins only, and only for breach of rules such as killing a surrendered suspect, intensive /su abuse, random deathmatch and so on.

[Gandalf]

We have alsways said that we do not allow competition in law enforcement, and there is just one single police force.
Anyone who decided that there were two forces now may understand there has in the eyes of the owners never been a separation.

For 7 years people have cried about freecops and pushed that they needed training. So now they will be trained, and nobody will be able to complain that cops do not know how to follow the rules.
As a result there is one single poice force,  ARPD.
Within that force there is still room for those who occcasionally want to play the cop role and those who wish to take prt in a more serious structure, that freedom is not changed in any way.

ARPD will not be able to copban for anything but RP cases, and will need RP evidence. If cops break server rules, the admin team will be punishing as they have always been.

There is no change in freedom, only the stigma resting on freecops is removed by making one single police force.

Any such type of moaning by a player who is not active on server will be handled ad advertising.

[Kirgiz]

Any such type of moaning by a player who is not active on server will be handled ad advertising.

I guess this was aimed at me, so I ask: what?

[Gandalf]

I guess this was aimed at me, so I ask: what?

Not aimed at anyone specific, jus a general warning that I do not allow people who do not actively play to spread negative propaganda.

[Pingster]

There is no change in freedom

Well part of current freedom was that ARPD didn't really need to take orders from SAPD, as long as freecops followed ARPD rules and ARPD command. That permitted you to roleplay your way without having to worry about an SAPD Sgt saying that it's a different way from how SAPD roleplays, and thus should stop. That's what I'm worried about, everyone being unified under one group that has their own view on how you should be playing as a cop, leaving little room for variation. Unless some drastic changes to these regulations are made to account for the freedom freecops have always had. There's no reason not to do this, if you feel you want to continue being SAPD as you always have, you can, you don't need regulations to do that.

It's great to hear about the copban use!

[Gandalf]

Well part of current freedom was that ARPD didn't really need to take orders from SAPD, as long as freecops followed ARPD rules and ARPD command.

Incorrect. ARPD officers are required to play the police role as they are, which includes taking orders from higher ranked officers.

[Def Perry]

If, in time or otherwise, everyone going on duty would be required to follow one police roleplay group's regulations, that would be extremely limiting to the current freedom of police roleplay. Argonath has always been about creativity, but suddenly we would have to follow set regulations (mind you, set by a roleplay group on who's views of policing you might not even agree with) leaving little room for your own and your friend's roleplay.

The current regulations for ARPD Officers are almost the same as the SAPD one's. The drive-by regulation is probably the only one worth mentioning. Moreover, that regulation should have already been set for ARPD Officers. It wouldn't add anything to the role-play besides a cop who decides to shoot instead of chase. (which is not realistic at all)

If you want to mention more changes, I'll happily discuss it with you.

Example: There are suspects inside a building that is surrounded by police. There are 5 suspects, 8 SAPD officers and 5 ARPD officers. When it comes to breaching, whoever is highest rank among SAPD officer would gather his buddies from SAPD, tell ARPD to stay outside and breach themselves. If me and my friends have a roleplay going on where we are a highly trained assault team as well, it is ruined and our roleplay is limited to being a security guards, because we, apparently, have to follow SAPD's orders.

You have always been obliged to follow the highest ranked officer's orders at such a scene.

If you want to treat police equally, then do so by allowing equal chance to create your own, equally important, policing group, instead of handing all the power in hands of some, who might think that you are not skilled enough to do what your group's goals are to do, and gives you an order not to do it.

In my 3 years police experience I haven't seen any serious try for such a group besides the CIA from Marcel. Who doesn't use the /duty system.

If me and my friends enjoy close quarter combat of indoors, we shouldn't be forced to:
Apply for SAPD (or whatever you are going to call the ranks above just going on /duty),
get accepted,
receive the rank of senior officer,
send a letter to SWAT,
get invited,
receive training,
get rank.

You can still do this, but you have to listen to the highest ranking officer at the scene. Which has been like this for years now.

We should be allowed to just do it without fear of copban (which should be returned to being an admin command, but that's another story) for "not following direct orders" from someone you've never met much less made a decision to subject yourself to their command. How is this not ruining roleplay (ruins your police group) and/or forced roleplay (either sit outside here or be copbanned), both of which are against the server rules? How is being allowed to reliably perform same/similar duty as SWAT or FBI does only if you've passed some arbitrary scale equal opportunity?

SWAT and FBI have always had the right to breach as first. There has never been an ARPD group who was allowed to breach before SWAT/FBI.

Last I checked, all of these were just roleplay groups, official ones, I'll grant you that, but still roleplay groups. Roleplay groups who's own roleplay limits/ruins your, unofficial roleplay group's roleplay. Them having copban also permits them to ban you from roleplaying in your group, only because you're roleplaying same thing they are, without being part of them. Is this the equality you're aiming for?

Yes, because you should actually do something before reaching that role play. It makes it fun to have a goal and finally make it. It's like saying that everyone should get $1000000, you don't have to do anything for it.

We don't need more than one group who does the same tasks as SWAT. We don't need another group with the same tasks as the FBI.

I honestly don't approve of being told by member of a roleplay group you're not part of to "either get on TS or no breach", or "don't breach, you stay outside", and failure to follow either of these would most likely end up with removal of tools to roleplay what you want - a damn police officer, not a security guard.

This has never been allowed to say by a leader and should be reported to the command.

Imagine a Corleone telling a Luciano to get their ass out of Los Santos or they must no longer permit a single crime. It's the same thing here.

No it's not.

I still don't like the ARPD being removed since I think it's a good thing to see if I talk to one who follows more regulations and has ambition, than talk to someone who follows and has less.

[Marcel]

That CIA is serious, yes, however i've told this many times before: it's not a law enforcement group : )

[Plam_Knight]

Hello,

I would like to know how and why SAPD is to run the Show in Rs5, particularly concerning the removal of "ARPD officers" entirely" and this resulting in all officers having to obey the real SAPD (who will now be known as the first tier SAPD, and the second still being "Freecops" - can't really get rid of it that easy)

I have long seen that SAPD does not indeed run the show in RS4, but many provisions are given to them by the developers so they can for example:
- Copban anyone they wish simply because they saw their technique as wrong, even tho it was justifiable.
- Moderator has to ask Unsus from Snr officer but cannot unsus them self.

It struggles at times to get its own affairs in order, let alone manage ARPD officers - which apparently they are not supposed to do but they try and do anyway.

For example, I would only be happy to follow ARPD Commissioner, heads of state, and only ever Chief of SAPD and FBI when it is in the spirit of good, and it's co-operation and not them trying to prevent me from roleplaying or trying to make me roleplay like them, i simply just drive off or don't follow them.

Information and opinion would be much obliged.

If you call a simple renaming, a removal. Then I guess you are correct, otherwise you seem to be seriously misguided about what's going to happen, but I guess Gandalf explained that part to you.

If, in time or otherwise, everyone going on duty would be required to follow one police roleplay group's regulations, that would be extremely limiting to the current freedom of police roleplay. Argonath has always been about creativity, but suddenly we would have to follow set regulations (mind you, set by a roleplay group on who's views of policing you might not even agree with) leaving little room for your own and your friend's roleplay.

Well I guess that means that you are not following the "ARPD Regualations" given out by the ARPD Commissioner himself currently ?
Because you are currently actually required to follow one police roleplay group's regulation and that group is ARPD.
If you can point out how is going to be different in RS5, I would love to hear about it. Of course that is probably because you possess a lot more knowledge of RS5's police structure, then us.

Example: There are suspects inside a building that is surrounded by police. There are 5 suspects, 8 SAPD officers and 5 ARPD officers. When it comes to breaching, whoever is highest rank among SAPD officer would gather his buddies from SAPD, tell ARPD to stay outside and breach themselves. If me and my friends have a roleplay going on where we are a highly trained assault team as well, it is ruined and our roleplay is limited to being a security guards, because we, apparently, have to follow SAPD's orders.

If you want to treat police equally, then do so by allowing equal chance to create your own, equally important, policing group, instead of handing all the power in hands of some, who might think that you are not skilled enough to do what your group's goals are to do, and gives you an order not to do it.

If me and my friends enjoy close quarter combat of indoors, we shouldn't be forced to:
Apply for SAPD (or whatever you are going to call the ranks above just going on /duty),
get accepted,
receive the rank of senior officer,
send a letter to SWAT,
get invited,
receive training,
get rank.

I am not going to even count how many things you got wrong there, but I will try to solve the obvious gaps of knowledge you seem to possess.

First ARPD Officers have always had to follow SAPD/FBI/SWAT's orders when breaching, that won't change. What you want to roleplay or not is all up to you, but when it attempts to bring chaos in to a organised system, it won't be allowed.

Second ARPD Officer's have always been given power to make their own group, but there is a simple restriction placed on that to prevent any possible competition attempts or even worse waste of manpower on something that obviously is already being done by a different group.

Third - The SWAT recruitment processes you showed over there is really far from the actual truth, but I guess you seem to like to be misguided so I will leave it at that, unless you actually want to ask somebody from SWAT how it works, not to guess on your own.

We should be allowed to just do it without fear of copban (which should be returned to being an admin command, but that's another story) for "not following direct orders" from someone you've never met much less made a decision to subject yourself to their command. How is this not ruining roleplay (ruins your police group) and/or forced roleplay (either sit outside here or be copbanned), both of which are against the server rules? How is being allowed to reliably perform same/similar duty as SWAT or FBI does only if you've passed some arbitrary scale equal opportunity?

Could you point out to me a single copban that has been handed out, because of what somebody RPed ?
And you have subjected yourself to their commands, the moment you actually typed the /duty command BTW.

Last I checked, all of these were just roleplay groups, official ones, I'll grant you that, but still roleplay groups. Roleplay groups who's own roleplay limits/ruins your, unofficial roleplay group's roleplay. Them having copban also permits them to ban you from roleplaying in your group, only because you're roleplaying same thing they are, without being part of them. Is this the equality you're aiming for?

You got that right and you got that wrong.
ARPD is a official roleplay group that includes everybody, yes including the "untouchable" ARPD officers you speak of and SAPD.
The only difference is that SAPD represents the trained and dedicated part of officers and the ARPD officer rank is given so people that wish to enjoy the police job, can operate,  but they are not fully dedicated.

And yes ARPD actually has the ability to copban you from ARPD duty.
I hope you remember that SAPD Head Command was placed as ARPD Command(SA:MP server) per the orders of the ARPD Commissioner.

Yes, I get it, you want all the police officers under one banner, so there's no treating ARPD officers differently from SAPD officers, but if that comes at the cost of roleplay, then please, remove SAPD instead, they can keep roleplay as they have, with imaginary ranks instead of scripted ranks. And everyone else can roleplay their own groups as well. And everyone would be treated the same, because you wouldn't know otherwise.

No point to even answer this, if you actually bother to read what Gandalf has said.

I honestly don't approve of being told by member of a roleplay group you're not part of to "either get on TS or no breach", or "don't breach, you stay outside", and failure to follow either of these would most likely end up with removal of tools to roleplay what you want - a damn police officer, not a security guard.

Imagine a Corleone telling a Luciano to get their ass out of Los Santos or they must no longer permit a single crime. It's the same thing here.

I would love to hear who told you that, because it wasn't a roleplay group that told you so, it was individual and I doubt he actually said it, but rather you are trying to make up something to sound more serious about this. Still with that being said, I would love to hear who it was and see evidence of that.

And your last sentence would make more sense if you say:
"Imagine a Corleone telling a Corleone...", because as I already stated SAPD is apart of ARPD.

Sadly we have heard all the same rumble for years now and I am still waiting for somebody to come to me and tell me "I disagree with this and this, because of those logical reasons and I have that to back it up".

[CBFasi]

For those that think ARPD is being removed....

SAPD is the police force under ARPD in the SAMP server !!!

They are the SAME as far as SAMP is concerned.
Its a name... NOTHING more !!
SAPD as of old is getting closed and ALL SAPD will reform to the NEW SAPD, in fact a lot of work has gone on behind the scenes to try and get the current SAPD in a position to reform very quickly on RS5 launch.


There is only 1 rank above SAPD Chief in the SAMP server ... that's ME !!

We have combined the two groups on SAMP to reduce the confusion and to hopefully  encourage better police work from ALL, that's both the old ARPD and SAPD members !

[Ben.]

There is only 1 rank above SAPD Chief in the SAMP server ... that's ME !!

You the man!!


Found this from a topic I made quite a long time ago now...this directly challenges those people who are saying the Community Management have changed their mind on ARPD Officers.
This clearly shows that at least since this was posted, the viewpoint on RS5 SAPD Officers has never really changed:

Dug this up from around this time last year...I believe this should be stickied and studied by SAPD members, and made clear to ARPD Officers.
Maybe to be added to the [SA:MP] Procedures topic on this board?

In particular, ARPD Officers and SAPD Officers.

I'm just looking for yes/no answers, perhaps with a little explanation here 

1. Do SAPD Officers technically outrank ARPD Officers?

Yes

2. If yes, does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

3. Do SAPD Senior Officers outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

4. If yes, does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

5. Do FBI Agents outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

6. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

7. Do FBI Special Agents outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

8. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

9. Do FBI Agents outrank SAPD Officers?

yes

10. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

11. Do FBI Special Agents outrank SAPD Officers?

yes

12. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

13. Do FBI Agents outrank SAPD Officers?

yes

14. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

15. Do FBI Special Agents outrank SAPD Senior Officers?

yes

16. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

This has always interested me. If I could have the answers to these, then I could maybe start some kind of diagram showing the FBI/SAPD/ARPD together, so new Officers know where they stand.
Later I would add higher ranks too 
Only looking for straight answers, I don't like possibly's and maybe's.

While the answers are straight, unfortunately they do not take in account that this is valid only within the boundaries of role play. With the sometimes questionable attitude of several players, the line between an order and non-rp behaviour is hard to tell and has to be judged by the present players.

RP order : I am FBI Agent, we need this criminal for a federal case
Non-RP order: I am FBI, freecops GTFO

RP order: Take the suspect in for investigation
Non-RP order: Leave him alone you don't know how to play cop.

Applying this into something we all understand...a diagram! Apologies that I don't know how the higher FBI/SAPD ranks line up, but it gives a good explanation of how ARPD Officers (RS5 SAPD Officers) fit into the system.
Obviously, the height in the diagram dictates who can/can't give orders...might be a bit squiff in some places, but is basically right!