The Argonath Vision...

[Benn]

@Ben.
All I did was talking about two type of people on the server ,Where did you see me saying the vision is against change?
What I mean is the changes that some people want to implement are drastic ones, such as turning all blips white.
the changes that the vision refers to are ... lets call them small changes to improve the server, simple changes.

[Gandalf]

See I have nothing against the vision, Gandalf pays the bills, he makes the decisions, it's pretty fair honestly. Hence the question mark. #5 states it's still in Gandalf's hands if something gets implemented or not, despite what the majority of the community thinks. And I think people disagree with that.

Lets read this again.

Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community

Doesit say 'Gandalf'? Does it say 'owners'?
Nope. It says here 'leaders'. That includes in the worst case all of HQ but could just as well mean the leaders of a specific server.

So what is the reason behind this specific point? Very simple. We are open to change, and will always listen to what players ask. However just the fact that players ask something is by itself not enough to implement it. When looking at an idea, we have to think how it impats both existing and new players, can it be scripted, will it affect the running of the server, will it break any law.
This is why players can suggest a new rule, but can never demand one, as some seem to wish to be able to.

There will ALWAYS be a contradiction between two types of people, the one who wants more out of everything such as turning Argonath into better place and the ones who are more of conservatives and wants to keep argonath as it is.
that contradiction is reflected in both HQ Team and players, for an example Gandalf is a conservative and Teddy is more for change.
Both type of people are right. but at the same time both are fatal, one kills the other.

You may find the opposite is true in many cases.
I do not reject change, however I will not jump at the first possibility of change.

[Julio.]

Both type of people are right. but at the same time both are fatal, one kills the other.

On the contrary. Too many conservative people mean nothing moves. Too many people who promote change often disregard what it is important, or make unnecessary changes. You need them both in order to maintain balance.

[Stivi]

Lets read this again.Doesit say 'Gandalf'? Does it say 'owners'?
Nope. It says here 'leaders'. That includes in the worst case all of HQ but could just as well mean the leaders of a specific server.

So what is the reason behind this specific point? Very simple. We are open to change, and will always listen to what players ask. However just the fact that players ask something is by itself not enough to implement it. When looking at an idea, we have to think how it impats both existing and new players, can it be scripted, will it affect the running of the server, will it break any law.
This is why players can suggest a new rule, but can never demand one, as some seem to wish to be able to.
You may find the opposite is true in many cases.
I do not reject change, however I will not jump at the first possibility of change.

No it doesn't say Gandalf, it says leaders. And have the leaders not asked for removing blips? Just an example I don't really know what goes behind the scenes.

[Gandalf]

No it doesn't say Gandalf, it says leaders. And have the leaders not asked for removing blips? Just an example I don't really know what goes behind the scenes.

Switch off the minimap.

[McGarrett]

Switch off the minimap.

What if I need the minimap for navigation such as being able to locate what is North, West, South and East, but still don't want to see blips?

[Leon.]

Switch off the minimap.

You missed the point of the post, which you seem to have a bad habit of doing.

[TiMoN]

Switch off the minimap.

What does Argonath gain from being the only RP server(heck, some DM/Freeroam/CnR servers disable their blips as well) that has blips enabled? Definitely not "uniqueness" since everyone wants this feature gone.

[Ben.]

@Ben.
All I did was talking about two type of people on the server ,Where did you see me saying the vision is against change?
What I mean is the changes that some people want to implement are drastic ones, such as turning all blips white.
the changes that the vision refers to are ... lets call them small changes to improve the server, simple changes.

Apologies, I didn't initially see the relevance to the vision and tried to draw a link.


I'd hate for this topic to be just people saying they want to wave goodbye to blips - If the vision is being talked about in a negative way when it comes to blips though, that's what I'd like to address.

As people, I'd hope you read the vision and understand what it achieves. Point 5 is around equality...as a new player, I was interested in player interaction (not even RP, to be honest). If I hadn't found anyone to annoy, I'd have left within 2 minutes.

So what you're actually asking for when you ask for blips to be removed is much more than that. You're asking for new players to feel more isolated when starting on Argonath, and you're also expecting them to search for people.


I think people forget the basis on which they join the Argonath community. About a week after I joined, I started reading stuff on the forum. I bought into the Argonath Vision then, and I feel the same way now.
New people are joining an existing community, with existing Owners and Leaders. The Owners created this community with a set of ideals, and I still don't understand how people think they have the right to demand changes - The principles haven't changed, and principles shouldn't change. Objectives may change but the aim/principles should be constant. Let's not forget Gandalf, Argonath's owner, is still here with us...I'm sorry, but as I see it the vision should remain as is.

People can request things, but those things have proven to only make us happy for a short time. Within a few days, the next thing comes up.

The vision isn't outdated (it isn't specific enough to even get outdated), it isn't wrong and it is there to give us what we need in the long term (to support and guide the community), not just in the short term.
We will crumble without a clear guiding hand.

[JDC]

What does Argonath gain from being the only RP server(heck, some DM/Freeroam/CnR servers disable their blips as well) that has blips enabled? Definitely not "uniqueness" since everyone wants this feature gone.

Look at history (not at the overrepresented "hey let's make argo like eslarpee" segment of forum users) and you will see that we are a community where player interaction (and welcoming others) is more important than how "pure" a person thinks their RP is.

Perhaps also because the older generation of Argonath roleplayers, as a result of a lack of script features (i.e. earlier clients, with MTA:VC a big example), held creativity and imagination as the standard for RP, instead of the presence / absence of custom script features. If we were not able to get that new feature we wanted (in most cases because it was too advanced for the software), we still had each other and our best, most dangerous weapon: our brains. That is why we can RP regardless of if there are plenty or little features, and don't whine that having blips on the map "ruins our RP."

This also extends to interaction with new players, where a noob running into our RP scenario was an opportunity to teach and welcome a new member of the community, instead of spamming /report or saying "fuck off noob we're RPing here." Teaching others is the best way, instead of mandatory long-ass automated tutorials (like those on other servers) which others have also asked for in the past; we value the "human factor."

If you want to be serious about your RP, then you will find a way. But don't drag the rest of your server into your quest for purity. We are open to change, but the only definition of "change" is NOT "hey let's make Argonath just like every other RP server."

[JDC]

5.   Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community

I'm actually surprised people think this disallows change. The two messages in #5 are simple: "let's keep equal opportunity open for everyone" and "let's keep things easy to understand."

[Morais]

I'm missing the entire point of this topic. What do you wish to achieve? If someone think that this is outdated they should be the ones creating the thread, or am I wrong?

[Norrage]

I'm missing the entire point of this topic. What do you wish to achieve? If someone think that this is outdated they should be the ones creating the thread, or am I wrong?

Whats wrong with discussing if it still up to date? They can discuss it and convince in this topic, else everybody else would have to make their own topic and that will cause a big mess.

[Julio.]

I'm missing the entire point of this topic. What do you wish to achieve? If someone think that this is outdated they should be the ones creating the thread, or am I wrong?

The thread was created to educate those who trample the vision and blame it for negative events in the server's past, to demonstrate that the vision is no way restrictive, or keeping Argonath " in the past" as has been claimed.

Merely a prompt for people to actually try reading the vision rather than following seemingly ignorant individuals who misinterpret the vision for their own benefit.