In character and Out of character discussion

[Void]

Is it me or did you previously say that you use it only when others use it?

It is called adaption to the other party.
I respect anyone's RP standards and I always try to adapt to another player regarding IC/OOC.

[Leon.]

So from all of the available chats ( /p /cb /pm AND MORE) which have both higher range and/or better privacy level, you have to use /L... with brackets.

 

Imagine this:
The POIUY mafia wants a meeting with the ASDFGH mafia. The ASDFGH mafia doesn't want to join one CB channel, so the POIUY mafia doesn't give a damn and goes on with it. They sit at one table...many people...and all of the sudden, ASDFGH starts DMing everyone. SmartGuy_POIUY (who I'm not saying is smart because he uses OOC tags in this exampler) says to ASDFGH
"(( ASDFGH, if you can't fucking act maturely, then leave the damn meeting ))
Now the cops already know that both POIUY and ASDFGH are reputable groups and often participate in illegal activities, so they're going to take into assumption "HAY, THEY BE MAKIN CRIMINAL MEETING" and barge in and detain for investigation (yes, this HAS happened before) if they saw POIUY say it via /P. Plus, take into consideration that ASDFGH was stubborn and didn't want to join the CB channel. Also take into consideration that 15 members of ASDFGH were present at the meeting, and all 15 of them were DMing. It's quite hard to just
/pm 1 STOP DMING
/pm 2 STOP DMING
...
/pm 15 STOP DMING
So, to prevent the terrible feeling of embarrassment and awkwardness, the tags are used in the first place. /L is also used, because it's sent to ASDFGH, who are close enough, and no cops are present.

And, just to remind JDC:

I respect anyone's RP standards and I always try to adapt to another payer regarding IC/OOC.

[9r2e5i3k]

Imagine this:
The POIUY mafia wants a meeting with the ASDFGH mafia. The ASDFGH mafia doesn't want to join one CB channel, so the POIUY mafia doesn't give a damn and goes on with it. They sit at one table...many people...and all of the sudden, ASDFGH starts DMing everyone

Why would POIUY want a meeting with ASDFGH if they are an uncooperative group of 15 DMers?
Why invite everyone to the table, not just representative members/consultants?
Why didn't POIUY just break the meeting and drive away to their HQ, to plan some non-DM revenge like stealing all of ASDFGH's cars or planning to kidnap one of their members?

(( ASDFGH, if you can't f**king act maturely, then leave the damn meeting ))

Why use brackets for that?
If it's OOC, then he isn't told to leave IC... so how would his character know that he is ordered to leave?

It is called adaption to the other party.
I respect anyone's RP standards and I always try to adapt to another player regarding IC/OOC.

How is it adaptation if you start it?
If you're scanning for IC/OOC users (checking who uses it), that's a sign of preferring to play with IC/OOC users, not a logic of "I don't care if you use it or not"

[Void]

How is it adaptation if you start it?
If you're scanning for IC/OOC users (checking who uses it), that's a sign of preferring to play with IC/OOC users, not a logic of "I don't care if you use it or not"

Scanning? If you knew with who I RP, at least. I wouldn't adapt if I RP with IC/OOC-ers only.Logic?
Try not to be superficial.

[9r2e5i3k]

@void
meh, nvm, I read it a bit out of context. my bad.

[Void]

The only actual difference between you and me is that I don't point fingers: "Non imaginative people, even a retard can differ"
While I know what you say is truth, but I do not use that kind of a response. I just co-op.Simple, as it is.
If I use no brackets whatsoever, while creating a situation with an OOC/IC user, he wouldn't understand some of my lines and it would confuse him, so I use them.

And if I see a mang-era fellow RPer I won't use brackets as I know that then, we had "necessary" commands such as /me and public chat.
Some additions later like local chat, first experience was awesome.Never heard of IC/OOC too. When I entered the San Andreas world, I saw this technique.

[JDC]

1. I constantly bitch and point fingers at those who think them and their generation are better than everyone else's. I have absolutely NO problem with those who stick to the community. Dave sticks to the community. Do I have problems with him? No, I don't. Me and Dave get along well, as a matter of fact.

I stick to the community as well... as you have noticed I go against things which seek to infect Argonath by turning it into some generic shadow of its former self if not a SRSRP Server altogether.

2. Other communities? Around to cause headaches for developers and owners? For one, Argonath is/was my first and only community. Yes, I've been to a retarded RLRP server before - It was terrible. 10 minute tutorial, about 87 rules total that covered literally EVERYTHING, more than half of which can be interpreted by common sense, NO CAR, and a God-awful admin team who rarely wants to help you. Yes, my experience was VERY similar to yours.
And for two, if my sole purpose was to cause headaches for developers and owners on this community... well, let's just say I wouldn't still be here after a year. Let's also just say that developers would disrespect me (which they don't, I know for a fact) and that the owners would place multiple sanctions on me to prevent causing any further headaches.

If you love Argonath so much and hate the hostility present in all the SRSRP Servers... then tell me. Why in the flying fuck are you standing up for and defending something that comes from them, and threatens to turn Argonath into one of them as well?!

I see the same pattern from others like you... "I love Argonath but I want to turn it like other server it be more awesomer like that". If you truly love this community then you will help preserve it rather than standing up for something that endangers it, my dear "Champion of IC/OOC".

3. People like me? The absolute worst thing I've ever done on this server was crack quite a few n****r jokes. I'm doing nothing to cause people like CBF to consider leaving (unless CBF was black - which he isn't). Please check the "ACSD Is banned" topic somewhere in SA:MP General, and you'll see what's been driving CBFasi nuts.1. I am not a liar.
Prove me wrong.[/u]

What you have done is worse than just those few n____r jokes... as I mentioned above you support what endangers this community.
Ever noticed that dangerous and revolutionary (in the negative sense) radical political parties use the same pattern? They present something to the populace as a blessing when in fact it will be bad for them.

2. Well, you tried to adhere to The Vision, but you failed after you disrespected and regarded the people who use IC/OOC as retards.So, JDC, what's it going to be? Are you still going to insult and generalize IC/OOC users, or are you going to leave the community?

Do not act as if people senior to me (I speak of experience as well, not just in terms of admin credentials)... the very same people you refuse to contradict, possess similar views.

I respect other players, groups, races, views (with certain exceptions), and et cetera... however I do not have respect for those who try to bring it in here (and especially stand up for and trying to justify it) despite the proven fact that the owners from the start have tried to direct this community away from becoming just another one of the 9,000 generic RP ones out there. Even the chat used for general discussion (known as main chat from MTA:VC times) was named so instead of "OOC Chat"... and that was a very long time ago.

3. I cannot criticize them the way I criticized you, because Gandalf and Aragorn approached the matter with the proper attitude. Gandalf in particular maintained a great level of respect and avoided generalizing an entire group. You, on the other hand, jumped into the deep end with your hands tied behind your back and your feet tied to your hands without a life jacket.>Implying I only use IC/OOC and don't respect or welcome any other style of roleplay
1. Correction: I cannot criticize owners for saying the same sort of things you copied and pasted right after they said it.
Correction 2: I cannot criticize owners because of their general approach to the IC/OOC crap. You approach it as going against The Vision (which I still fail to see which point of the vision goes against - If you'd be so kind to point out which one it goes against...) and as it turning Argonath into a real-life roleplay server. Tell me something. Do we use double parentheses in real life in the first place? No, we don't, hence you are wRONg.

Avoided generalizing... you are wRONg. It is what we all do, consciously or not.
Many people have said that IC/OOC (or elements of) are indications of poor brainpower... Gandalf included. You can even read it in that "Replace gay with IC/OOC" speech, as it refers to IC/OOC users/misusers as a group, so you cannot say it does not generalize.

Many people (including myself, Dave, Giac, etc...) have called IC/OOC as "shit" or "bullshit" in one way or another, and one of them is Aragorn.

In fact, Dave even told IC/OOC users to fuck off (and that was after Aragorn did) and you never criticized him at all for saying a statement previously said by an Owner, despite the fact that Dave possesses very similar views to Aragorn... even more similar than I do to both owners.

I could only see that you did not criticize them for it because they are the owners and you think yourself powerless to do so. If you are not afraid to criticize them for their stance on the subject, then why not stand up for IC/OOC (as you usually do) and do so instead of just talking? (@Correction 2)

Also, if we don't use double parenthesis in real life when talking then why does every damned SRSRP server have it?
For that reason it has become part of ZOMGRP gameplay.

I could already imagine you giving me the same favoritism if I was one of the owners / community leaders rather than just another slightly-extremist SA:MP admin.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with my post :] )

@Correction 1: IC/OOC breaks these points of the Argonath Vision.

4.   Argonath strives to keep rules simple and understandable. Our community was created as free RP, based on imagination and creativity. We will not ever support it changing in to a jungle of rules that are impossible to understand, follow and adhere to. Our rules will remain the minimal needed to stop players who wish to disturb the fun in playing from doing so, not more and not less.

IC/OOC goes against Point 4 of the Argonath Vision by creating a series of complicated rules and an unnecessary standard for RP... it attempts to replace sheer brainpower (if you are not a retard you can find ways to tell if someone is talking about real life or ingame without having to rely on IC/OOC) with a complicated structure of rules and guidelines for RP, which even confuses some new players.

5.   Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community

IC/OOC goes against Point 5 as well... as its implementation in the server will only benefit those who are experienced from it, enabling the general population of unexperienced players to be all the more termed as  "Noobs" since they can't "RP" (read: use IC/OOC) properly.

10.   Argonath will remain as open, friendly and strong community for people worldwide who wish to enjoy playing a game based on imagination and creativity.

Finally, IC/OOC contradicts Point 10, which is one of those that specify in general the goal and orientation of the community. It kills imagination and creativity by being one of the key elements in the other servers' robot-like pseudo-RP play.

The difference between this quote and what your approach is that Gandalf's point is correct - yours is based off of theories, imagination, and paranoia.

Theories, imagination, and paranoia? If you use those terms when referring to a logical and common sense-oriented approach, then you have to be the theoretical and imaginative paranoid, as that isn't me... unless it can be unmistakably proven.

2. All of what you have said just proves that you refuse to say any point you make is proven wrong, regardless if it's actually bullshit. Refer toNow before you accuse me of that, I just admitted defeat to Gandalf due to the quote I posted above. I asked him to provide a reason, and he delivered.You sure can dish out the "asslicker" insult, but you sure as hell can't take it, Mr. MTA:VC Veteran

The points I have made...
"IC/OOC is a bullshit rule from another server" (proven by Owners)
"It is another replacement for using brainpower in roleplay" (proven by examples and common sense)
"It can turn Argonath into a jungle of rules" (proven by its nature and referred to indirectly by The Vision)
and et cetera... they are proven right.

I have stated many reasons time and time again for my points... yet you say that I don't have any? The question "can you even read?" comes to my mind here, to be honest.

And as for the part where I concluded the connection between you and asslicking... I will refer to an earlier part of this post. Why is it that you don't criticize Dave as well for having similar views (even telling IC/OOCers to fuck off)?

I know about your tendency to be biased against what I post... and don't try to argue it. Notice that you tend to disagree with what I post (specifically: observations) about almost every single time, even if almost all of it is right virtually every single time?


Also... you are taking the CBradio for granted.

[Void]

Sorry for the irrelevance, but this song is dedicated to Luweegee.
Search up for lyrics, it will make more sense 

Agnostic Front - Victim in pain

[Leon.]

Sorry for the irrelevance, but this song is dedicated to Luweegee.
Search up for lyrics, it will make more sense 

Agnostic Front - Victim in pain

Lyrics make sense. A lot.

I have stated many reasons time and time again for my points... yet you say that I don't have any? The question "can you even read?" comes to my mind here, to be honest.

Something we actually agree on!
And because we share the same view on that matter, we might as well stop right here. We're getting absolutely nowhere, and what we're doing is absolutely the wrong way to deal with a conflict.

If you're curious, the only reason why I defended IC/OOC was...
If you're familiar with the American Civil War back in the (shitty) 1800's, many Southern states seceded from the Union to form the Confederacy, not because they wanted slavery (they DID want slavery, though - there's no denying that), but because they were being denied "States' Rights" after the Emancipation Proclamation was put into effect.
I defended IC/OOC, not because I want IC/OOC to take over, but because my opinion was that the players who use IC/OOC as their primary roleplay way were being denied their right to play how they feel is comfortable when people throw insults at them (e.g., not having a brain) and when they're shunned.
The Confederacy didn't necessarily go "HEY UNION, DO SLAVERY OR YOU'RE DOUCHES." IC/OOC users (for the most part, anyway - correct me if I'm wrong on this one respectably) also didn't go "HEY NON-IC/OOC USERS, DO IC/OOC OR YOU'RE BAD RPERS."

In short, JDC, let's go for a coffee break.

/report 1 ASDFGH group dm.

Problem solved.

And the busy admin(s) are busy with other reports and shit.

Problem not solved.

[Void]

Lyrics make sense. A lot. IC/OOC users (for the most part, anyway - correct me if I'm wrong on this one respectively) also didn't go "HEY NON-IC/OOC USERS, DO IC/OOC OR YOU'RE BAD RPERS."

Some do that, sadly. That's where people like JDC got their opinion.From those kind of people.
I suggest a coffee break, too.

[JayL]

IC/OOC users (for the most part, anyway - correct me if I'm wrong on this one respectably) also didn't go "HEY NON-IC/OOC USERS, DO IC/OOC OR YOU'RE BAD RPERS."

They don't need to say it. New players who watch OOC/IC users will already think that themselves.

[Leon.]

New players who watch OOC/IC users will already think that themselves.

Well, maybe if they had low self-esteem...
Someone with low self-esteem likely has a high stress level, so they wouldn't be playing a game like Argonath and SA:MP in the first place; they'd probably be in their bed, staring off into the ceiling... depressed...
Speaking from experience.

[JayL]

New players learn mostly by watching others doing things. So if they start meeting OOC/IC users, they will think ''well looks like you have to use these brackets in this server, time to get used to it''. They think it's the correct form, and not following it would be incorrect.

I will try to give a similar example. If you are guided into using drugs, you will probably like them. If you like them, you will think ''it's cool, oh damn cool!'' But you will most likely damage your relations with your parents etc. OOC/IC is similar. Guy sees people using it, likes it and starts using it too, but ignores the fact he is following rules that aren't Argonath's.

[Leon.]

New players learn mostly by watching others doing things. So if they start meeting OOC/IC users, they will think ''well looks like you have to use these brackets in this server, time to get used to it''. They think it's the correct form, and not following it would be incorrect.

I will try to give a similar example. If you are guided into using drugs, you will probably like them. If you like them, you will think ''it's cool, oh damn cool!'' But you will most likely damage your relations with your parents etc. OOC/IC is similar. Guy sees people using it, likes it and starts using it too, but ignores the fact he is following rules that aren't Argonath's.

Very understandable, however, I roughly estimate that 1/10 of new players are confused into thinking that IC/OOC is actually an Argonath rule (later to discover that it actually isn't - these discussions go on a lot in main chat: "IC/OOC is not supported in Argonath").
I also understand that you want to make that 1/10 into 0/10.

[JDC]

TL;DR of the above posts:

If a new player goes into server and sees everyone in his immediate vicinity using and separating IC/OOC, then they will think that you have to IC/OOC in order to fit into the server ("since all the regulars and older guys are doing it anyways"), leading to them coming up with the concept of "Argonath is an IC/OOC Server". Once they think that, they think the server is about a complicated set of rules and guidelines, thus contradicting The Vision.

THAT is how it confuses players and is one of the three major reasons why I have been against it all this time.


As for the analogy between Slavery and IC/OOC... there is another way the analogy can be applied.
The concept of allowing slavery misleads people into thinking that one person has the right to own another, just as IC/OOC usage on Argonath misleads new players into thinking the server is an IC/OOC Server.

Notice that not everyone outside the IC/OOC user-group uses MTA:VC RP, but others use "RP in General" instead, as I would like to refer to it as.

Also, for those who are wondering... I am an avid fan of Starbucks Coffee.