Is this right?

[AK47]

It's a game and sometimes you just login to Argonath to have fun. If you are both punching each other and are happy with it, what's the problem.

The problem is, if you are a player and you do it, you either get a straight /warn for random DM or a tempban or verbally warned etc. And if you are an admin, nothing.

Sure I agree it can be fun to have a random fight with your mates, but sometimes the admins don't agree that you do it, and that is where the problem comes in.

[Ted]

Admins get bollocked for it too.

[Teddy]

Now before you begin. I am not 'shitting' the management, nor I am telling admins how to do their job.
If you think my post is wrong in any way, please discuss it with me..

I would like to shed some light on some concerns that I have seen between admins.

1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.

2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.

3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.

4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.

5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.

6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.


I'm sure admins do not take this topic in a bad way. I'm trying to help by opening and discussing the concerns I have. By talking and figuring out solutions, we can all reach a better level of understanding.
Post Merge: April 08, 2013, 08:21:57 pmSorry for the mistakes. Its hard to type with the phone and it auto corrects some words. Its a bigger pain to modify and correct it. -_-

1) Different admins might handle situations a bit differently. But all should enforce the same rules. As for "commenting on admin punishment"... there is NO SUCH RULE unless it violates another rule like provoking, flaming etc.

2) If you do it, do it out of public view. When you do things like this it sends a negative message to new players.

3) I agree, admins should not.

4) An admin should not issue punishments based on law, SAPD/FBI regulations etc. For example an admin can not copban a player because of breaching SAPD regulations or ARPD (unless part of Server rule).

5) Admins should be using proper kick, ban, and warning messages. A little light humor is fine, after all.. it is a game.

6) Views shouldn't mean anything... You think I agree with every SA:MP RPG rule we have? I don't agree with some sure, and I think we need more but I will still enforce the rules I am told to, and will not enforce rules that aren't existent.

Hope this gives you some insight.

[James_Webb]

I agree with what you said, james. I have also thought about posting such topic if these problems are not solved in RS5. Now, the rule says "you can NOT return after death" but when going on cop duty you take another RP character and can proceed to hunt down the guy who killed you. What if the cop dies, doesn't he takes the SAME RP character and return ? So, if I get killed, can I change my skin and RP again ? This rules should have limits, to three sides. (criminial , cop , civilian) I don't know if other players have noticed it, but cops don't usually get punished, right ? Only new players which choose to be cops, and that I find bad, they have to learn ? freeze them and explain, not using a simple copban to ruin the guys fun.. Yeah sometimes the guy's fun can ruin other's fun, TEACH him.

I agree with what you said, james. I have also thought about posting such topic if these problems are not solved in RS5. Now, the rule says "you can NOT return after death" but when going on cop duty you take another RP character and can proceed to hunt down the guy who killed you. What if the cop dies, doesn't he takes the SAME RP character and return ? So, if I get killed, can I change my skin and RP again ? This rules should have limits, to three sides. (criminial , cop , civilian) I don't know if other players have noticed it, but cops don't usually get punished, right ? Only new players which choose to be cops, and that I find bad, they have to learn ? freeze them and explain, not using a simple copban to ruin the guys fun.. Yeah sometimes the guy's fun can ruin other's fun, TEACH him.

I fully agree with this, my opinion is that cops have sometimes to much freedom in those kind of rules,.

[Tai]

1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.

I agree into that point but have you concidered the term "punishable". It does not say admins have to use their tools in anyway to enforce rules if they want. It is still a judgement of the individual admin if he punishes for a rulebreak or not. Still your example is a rulebreak and it is punishable, therefore admins can punish if they feel it is necessary.

2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.

Also true, even I admit I like to mess with admins and did it as admin. True is also that this does mislead (especially newbies), what you mean by misleading new players is that admins tells you to not do it, while they do. That's truly a issue, but like always hard to regulate by other admins. This is a matter where the admin himself must decide if he does it or not. Otherwise I am pretty sure admins that are being catch will receive the advice to drop it by Managers. In worst case if the admin attacks you with no reason against your intention, I advice you to write a email to [email protected] or the specific server email.

3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.

I really don't know what to say to this topic...

4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.

I barely seen it. You sure you ain't mixing up that some rules that apply to SAPD are allowed to be enforced by Admins? The server rules does not list all things Admins can punish since SAPD also has rules that apply once you are going on duty, doesn't matter if you are Freecop or a active member of SAPD. Such like "do not shoot still standing suspects" and so on... Some enforced rules are not as clear as it seems, though I am sure you know that the most enforced rules are as they are. The Staff has a reason for being able to cop-ban (which is actually a cop-tool)
Little Edit: If you see warnings like "Driving on false side" or such, remember that a rule could still be meant! Admins are very busy and acting fast, that can cause little misunderstandings in their "Punishment Reason", mostly is still a actual rule break meant.

5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.

However in worst case [email protected] (Be still sure, if a Manager is online as well the Admin doesn't have a chance to laugh because of his super cool joke! )

6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.

In the end they still follow the same guidelines that you can read on SA:MP General Board. But I also noticed that they act different but I think this is more a matter of strictness. Some Criminal-Admins see low deathmatch less strict than Cop-Admins, but it's actually just because they are playing on exactly those 2 sites. If you would be the guy at the Bar you would also care less about it if you do less in liquid in the glass, than your guest would care.

[TheLegitHabibi]

Regarding admins mixing roleplay and admin duty. Here are two real incidents.

Once I wanted to test my sound mod, but did not wanted to get suspected. So when the cops were not around I shot in the air. I was at city hall and admins are usually ther. So one admin got off admin duty and suspected me. Now that's how they mix it. After he's done, he probably went on admin duty again.

Another mixup was when a friend was severely punished. Banned to be precise for breaking SAPD regulation. Its a mixup by an admin.


Regarding punching admins, Jacob. Thing is sometimes we are punished for it. But admins do it. So either allow us too, or stop it yourself.

[Pandalink]

I was just about to go to bed but this was a pretty well written topic so here are some of my thoughts both as someone who was an involved member of the community for several years, and as an ex-admin up to level 4.

1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.

Admins do not have a perfectly clear set of rules to follow, the same as players on the server. The server rules are worded in such a way that they can be interpreted any number of ways, and as such some admins will (in a very basic sense) follow (and punish for breaking) entirely different rules. This is the source of the disparity that you describe.

I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason.

Again, the rules can be read in any number of ways concerning that scenario.

3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.

Unfortunately I once again have to use the same point as above that it's entirely up to the personal opinion and discretion of the admin.
However, one point that's worth mentioning is that admins have the tools to far more easily control an event of that nature, so that's the main reason there.

4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.

This probably stems from simple confusion between server rules and SAPD regulations. In the case of the SAPD regs, well.. there are a f**king lot of them.

5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.

I agree with you, punishment reasons should be clear, concise and professional, particularly bans and especially since the automatic ban log was added, which was f**king years ago.

6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.

Oh boy, here we go.
In general, a vast majority of admins over the course of the server's history have been primarily cops. You can argue this however much you want but as far as I'm concerned it's just a fact. This more clearly shows the effect that you are describing on a large scale and over a longer period of time, which anyone who has the ability to objectively assess the situation should have been able to see over the years.
Anyway, you are indeed correct that cop admins and criminal admins have different views. For a time, it was balanced as any admin actions that were biased against one side were argued in admin chat by the admins of that side. I'm not sure if that happens any more, but I know for damn sure that when all the criminal admins were kicked (along with loads of cop admins too, I know) the balance was broken as nobody argued against biased decisions against suspects and criminal groups for a time. Since then I know new criminal admins have joined the team so it's probably better now, but as far as I'm concerned as long as there is roughly a balance then it usually works out alright. The only other option is to only let non-criminal civilian players be admins but, for one, aren't enough active people that do that and secondly that's clearly just a dumb idea.

For an example outside of admins, this balance effect can also be observed on the forums in the ideas section. If there were no criminal players posting on cop idea topics saying they didn't like it then all of the ridiculous cop ideas would get unanimous support and they'd be put in. As with admin opinions, it's about finding a balance that means a nice middle ground is achieved. Of course, in the forum example, this balance was never found, meaning that criminals were forced to appear completely opposed to cop ideas that actually had some merit, merely in an attempt to balance the odds. You can use this point as an example of why you might sometimes hear of obscenely biased decisions from admins. The principle is the same.

I'm sure admins do not take this topic in a bad way. I'm trying to help by opening and discussing the concerns I have. By talking and figuring out solutions, we can all reach a better level of understanding.

Please take my post with this sentiment as well, I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, merely post my observations as a player since '07 and an ex-admin too.

[midget]

1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.

The admins don't really have any guidelines to follow except on obvious cases, they've been chosen because the HQ believe the admin is helpful, mature and know the rules.
After you've been chosen, there is no end-test, so the admin is merely reflecting his own understanding of the rules, not anyone else's.

To answer your example, comments made by players about a punishment is allowed, however if the comment is provocative against the guy getting punished then it's not allowed.
For example, Player 1 was warned by Admin 1 for death-matching
Player 2: lol *not punishable*
Player 3: He fucking deserved it!*punishable*

2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.

Correct, report it to [email protected] since you are not allowed to report an administrator in-game.

3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.

"Kill events" are allowed, however the "VIP" in question should not drive around BC-TR, he should visit important landmarks, i.e Hunter's Quarry.

4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.

I don't understand what you wanted said here.
Do you mean players get warned for reckless driving?

5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.

Admins are not allowed to punish players with funny comments.
If I remember correctly, the reason must first-hand be very clear and specific, so not to confuse players in-game.
An example, admins must write "Death-matching is not allowed", as a reason and not "DM", "Airbreak hacks" and not "Hack".

6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.

Obviously all cases should be judged the same and without an admin being biased.
The "views" are their own reflection of the rules, read my answer on your first statement.
As an ex-"criminal" admin, I don't see this as true.

[zater112]

Please go down again please.

Hope to see Woka again

[Gandalf]

Please go down again please.

Hope to see Woka again

So we are down for 2 weeks and you hate us so much you still feel compelled to watch every day just to come here and shit on us ?

Yep... we are good! :devroll:

[AndrewS]

I agree with you 100% Bond ... Once i scammed someone 50k in casino before like 4 months , i talked to the admin about that and he forgave me , 20 minutes later another admin logged in and banned me for '' Scamming in casino is not allowed '' . Some admins have no relations with each other they punish the person not because of what he did but because of who's that person and if they were in a good mood or not .
I dont mean to disrespect the Admin team but there are some things need to be changed .

[zater112]

So we are down for 2 weeks and you hate us so much you still feel compelled to watch every day just to come here and shit on us ?

Yep... we are good! :devroll:

Ohh, so the 2 weeks was just enough to get some extra money to pay the bills of yours and now pay for the server because of the donations ? Money hungry bastards

[Gandalf]

I agree with you 100% Bond ... Once i scammed someone 50k in casino before like 4 months , i talked to the admin about that and he forgave me , 20 minutes later another admin logged in and banned me for '' Scamming in casino is not allowed '' . Some admins have no relations with each other they punish the person not because of what he did but because of who's that person and if they were in a good mood or not .
I dont mean to disrespect the Admin team but there are some things need to be changed .

Yep, the admin that forgave you should be kicked from the team.

[Mashgash]

I agree with you 100% Bond ... Once i scammed someone 50k in casino before like 4 months , i talked to the admin about that and he forgave me , 20 minutes later another admin logged in and banned me for '' Scamming in casino is not allowed '' . Some admins have no relations with each other they punish the person not because of what he did but because of who's that person and if they were in a good mood or not .
I dont mean to disrespect the Admin team but there are some things need to be changed .

You literally calling admins racist... Way to go :razz:
We don't ban players because we are in a bad mood... We don't ban players because our girlfriend left us... We don't ban players because we failed at the latest math test... We don't ban players because we are bored... We don't ban players because we can... We don't ban players because we fight with our relatives... We ban players who break the rules. Simple as that.
Mistakes happens. If we wouldn't commit wrongdoings, we shouldn't be humans. If we make a mistake, laugh and be polite. No need to be rude and aggressive.
We don't rage at you each time you hit a lamppost, right?

I completely misread your post.. Disregard :redface:

Ohh, so the 2 weeks was just enough to get some extra money to pay the bills of yours and now pay for the server because of the donations ? Money hungry bastards

[Gandalf]

Ohh, so the 2 weeks was just enough to get some extra money to pay the bills of yours and now pay for the server because of the donations ? Money hungry bastards

Sure... in 7 years we have paid over Eur 10.000 to keep Argonath up. Yeah we are money hungry.
Now go back to your server where people pay money for VIP status and buy 'special' cars and houses with real life money, and sit there calling us money hungry because we do not have such things and you do not have thee skills to make enough without using real life money....