Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Cero on January 08, 2011, 12:39:32 pm
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The answer of Aragorn was intended for present members.
Think for a moment this is not a game but real life (yeah I know...).
You are a mafia and when you come near your HQ you see cops trying to arrest some of your friends/members. What do you do ?
1. Killing some cops so more stronger forces will come making escape impossible and ensure you die.
2. Lay low not to be noticed as you do not want to be arrested or killed so you can run the company further
3. Let someone cause a distraction so you can help you friends escape to a quiet place
Just think of what would make the most sense...
Why is there such a rule on Argonath that you can not help your friends in a shootout with cops? You constantly tell us that this is not a Real-life RP server, but when it comes to this we have to act like it was "real-life", if you can call it that.
If criminals want to help their friends who are in a pinch, why are they being stopped from doing so? If criminals want to escape by killing all the cops involved in a situation, they should be allowed to.
The options for what a suspect can do has always been:
- Surrender
- Run
- Fight until death
Doing what I described above would be a mix of option 3 and 2. You kill all the cops and then you run. Police units can return as many times as they want, call backup, etc. While criminals can't return OR call for backup. They SHOULD be allowed to call for backup, I do not understand why you say it is not realistic, why should it even matter? This is Argonath RPG, a world of it's own.
It was never a problem before some cops decided to moan about getting shot in the back. Do you ever see a criminal moaning that he got shot in the back during a shootout? Deal with it.
I'd like to hear some opinions on this matter.
Regards
A Law Enforcer
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There are 2 main problems from administrators point of view - which are
1. Deathmatching - shooting without no RP reason: Occurs when random guy comes up to cops and with no explanation or roleplay just starts blasting (to defend friends). Everyone should know the RP reason - even if you are same clan tag. This can easily be done by introducing your intentions through /s on scene. Unless of course they are shooting, then use common sense. Cops will moan because they try not shoot innocent bystanders, when the bystander then starts raping them from behind for no apparent reason...
2. Alamo type shootouts. Also known as copbaiting to some extent. Criminals will gather together purposely closing themselves in for a large to the death shootout. There is no intent to surrender or run or roleplay. This attracts many many players to the scene who have nothing to do with previous RP - only turn up to shoot at cops. Such events are not allowed as they rarely have any RP background at all. Usually it is some lame bullshit "kidnapping" where a million civilians/criminals are called in to defend the hostage from cops...
Criminals priority should be to live either through escaping or taking the punishment.
So as long as it does not conflict with the above two points, and your friends have RP reason to help (and that RP reason is known by everyone involved so there are no doubts) then no one has any problem with your friends helping.
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Since when players are not allowed to backup their friends?
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Why not new rules?
Criminals are not allowed to do crimes.
Cops get minigun when on-duty.
Cops have access to administrator commands: /gotocriminal [ID]
Cops have unlimited ammu.
Criminals are not allowed to shoot back - if you're dying, /gu.
Criminals may not avoid paying the ticket. You must pay or get ban.
There are 2 main problems from administrators point of view - which are
1. Deathmatching - shooting without no RP reason: Occurs when random guy comes up to cops and with no explanation or roleplay just starts blasting (to defend friends). Everyone should know the RP reason - even if you are same clan tag. This can easily be done by introducing your intentions through /s on scene. Unless of course they are shooting, then use common sense. Cops will moan because they try not shoot innocent bystanders, when the bystander then starts raping them from behind for no apparent reason...
2. Alamo type shootouts. Also known as copbaiting to some extent. Criminals will gather together purposely closing themselves in for a large to the death shootout. There is no intent to surrender or run or roleplay. This attracts many many players to the scene who have nothing to do with previous RP - only turn up to shoot at cops. Such events are not allowed as they rarely have any RP background at all. Usually it is some lame bullshit "kidnapping" where a million civilians/criminals are called in to defend the hostage from cops...
Well...
If you'd remove all the stuff which avoids any of rules beeing broken, admins would not be needed at all...
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Weren't you IVMP Admin?
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YOU f**kING WITH ME?! :rofl: Next thing you know suspects cant enter houses/bizz, cant drive vehicles, cant have weapons and armour. Cops get LSPD cruisers replaced with Rhinos and SWAT tanks, they get armour, heat seeking rockets,satchels,chainsaws and miniguns? OR BETTER YET! The ability to BAN suspects! Jesus...
If you dont want your suspect to get backup, go with another officer -.-
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YOU f**kING WITH ME?! :rofl: Next thing you know suspects cant enter houses/bizz, cant drive vehicles, cant have weapons and armour. Cops get LSPD cruisers replaced with Rhinos and SWAT tanks, they get armour, heat seeking rockets and miniguns? Jesus...
If you dont want your suspect to get backup, go with another officer -.-
What a good suggestion right here!
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Weren't you IVMP Admin?
I was. What does that have to do with anything?
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I would like that people can call for back-up like cops can, but not return, that would be fair enough in my view!
//3000
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I would like that people can call for back-up like cops can, but not return, that would be fair enough in my view!
//3000
Congratz man ;)
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I was. What does that have to do with anything?
Just checkin' in.
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Dissallow cops returning after death/ allow suspects returning after death and I will agree with this topic. Nowadays you cant have a good kidnap, all you know is barricaded in a house, cops outside, SWAT/FBI giving FREE weapons to cops who /resetspawn outside, die, get weapons do it again and again untill all suspects down or /gued.
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Disallowing policemen to return after dieing ends RP/shootouts.
I mean, they are dead. How can they return to any other crime scene?
Allowing criminals to return will make an endless DM. All returning from all sides just to get a piece of action.
TGChopper, your proposition is impossible.
TheRock: Its called a channel.
Only way players could help their suspected friends is by DRIVING to the scene and picking them up(not shooting). Then we can discuss as there is a 100% that the driver will also get suspected.
Briefly said, its called D.I.S.T.R.A.C.T.I.O.N. Distracting does not necessarily mean "Oh em gee, come and shoot them as I get my butt out".
Run into a barricade, immobilize a few police vehicles and drive your friend away. Don't barge in and start shooting .... you're not Steven Seagal.
As an orange-man, you're able to do whatever you want. Even shoot officers who assault you.
If any of you is so fucking frustrated with his role and thinks there is some superior role among you, SWITCH TO THAT ROLE!
Do you have to constantly RP just one role. What the fuck is going on?! Do you people have any imagination?
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Nowadays you cant have a good kidnap, all you know is barricaded in a house, cops outside, SWAT/FBI giving FREE weapons to cops who /resetspawn outside, die, get weapons do it again and again untill all suspects down or /gued.
Good kidnap, meaning you call COPS to bring you money (which I see as plain copbaiting - "hey cops! we have kidnapped someone, come here to our HQ and pay us") for kidnapping someone either totally random, some high-ranked cop or your friend who plainly agreed to be an assumed hostage so you can camp and blast cops?
Ever heard the line "... and don't call the cops" ?
Shooting cops just because someone from your family/mafia/gang is wanted was never allowed (was never allowed to shoot cops "to help" a criminal, and I don't remember any exceptions for "same gang" being made), but I guess it was not monitored enough on the SAMP server, hence some people assumed it's allowed if they haven't been caught early enough. Now if someone countered their argument/"rp reason", they only went "omg we're doing this for ages so it MUST be allowed".
It's same level of not being allowed as civilians ramming/killing suspects "because they're helping cops" - wanna help cops - be a cop.
Dissallow cops returning after death/ allow suspects returning after death and I will agree with this topic.
Disallowing policemen to return after dieing ends RP/shootouts.
I mean, they are dead. How can they return to any other crime scene?
"Cop" is a generic role. You can respawn as "another" cop. "Criminal"/"suspect" is not a generic role. After you die for your crime, you're dead but can respawn as "another" criminal and commit crimes again.
Your argument is based on assumption that Argonath is a "one role" server. Wrong. You can play/change as many roles as you want.
Oh and if you really think that "having same tag is a valid reason to help (by killing cops) wanted friend from same group" is allowed then analogically cops should be able to suspect EVERYONE from your group if just one of your members is wanted and you have NO permission to moan about it.
But this is not allowed anyway, because of the deathmatching it would produce.
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Because half of the server considers "helping a friend in trouble" as "Hey boys, strap on some heat, we're goin' copping!".
That's why its not allowed.
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"Cop" is a generic role. You can respawn as "another" cop. "Criminal"/"suspect" is not a generic role. After you die for your crime, you're dead but can respawn as "another" criminal and commit crimes again.
Your argument is based on assumption that Argonath is a "one role" server. Wrong. You can play/change as many roles as you want.
Most of the posters here are stuck in one role.
Check ARPD forums. They all have a specific name. Every cop out there. People actually don't think which role they play. They just play.
Nobody will ask them "How did you return, because you're dead, what the...?!"
Try to allow suspects to return after death, alongside policemen. Lets see what the server will look like.
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Try to allow suspects to return after death, alongside policemen. Lets see what the server will look like.
May not be that relevant to SA:MP, but in VC:MP I've seen "certain" people who have returned from death as a criminal by making up excuses, not going to include the situation here, but all I'm saying is when that happend in VC:MP, it was just wasn't controllerble, the criminals just went on a killing spree with the cops, came back, supported one another and it just become into Cops V Robbers server style atmosphere. It wasn't allowed obviously but it was by 2 admins which I won't go into.
Now imagine that in SA:MP with the amount of players?
Also, one question I have, do we need the whole of SAPD, SA:MP FBI and SA:MP SWAT to catch one criminal?
Because thats what I'm seeing a lot ingame, it just makes the cop duty worthless with so many people there you can't really get into the RP or the action.
Back in the days of MTA:VC the SWAT commander on his own used to take out loads of criminals by himself.
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Returning after death?! Give us /godmode instead... It's the pretty same.
Rules should have no exceptions but apparently this is a cops server.
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May not be that relevant to SA:MP, but in VC:MP I've seen "certain" people who have returned from death as a criminal by making up excuses, not going to include the situation here, but all I'm saying is when that happend in VC:MP, it was just wasn't controllerble, the criminals just went on a killing spree with the cops, came back, supported one another and it just become into Cops V Robbers server style atmosphere. It wasn't allowed obviously but it was by 2 admins which I won't go into.
Now imagine that in SA:MP with the amount of players?
Seems like my punctuation was not convincing enough. I opposed that idea. I do not agree of any changes within "returning after death", but your post is informational.
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Respawning as another generic cop is not "returning after death". One cop is dead, and another one is replacing the dead one in the chase.
Respawning as civilian (because you don't spawn as a suspect) and killing a cop for a crime someone else did is deathmatching, because person is unrelated and has no valid reason to do so. If the person states he's the previous criminal (that's dead) to become related, he's "returning after death".
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Why not new rules?
Criminals are not allowed to do crimes.
Cops get minigun when on-duty.
Cops have access to administrator commands: /gotocriminal [ID]
Cops have unlimited ammu.
Criminals are not allowed to shoot back - if you're dying, /gu.
Criminals may not avoid paying the ticket. You must pay or get ban.
Your ideas are somewhat similar to the ones I suggested in another topic not so long ago;
If implemented, you may aswell provide SWAT and FBI the ability to load up on miniguns. Add Teleports for cops and you'd be onto a winner. :war:
Furthermore, you may also consider adding the following;
- Cops may return to a given situation as much as they want.
- Certain cops may have access to heavy weapons for free.
- Certain personnel from law enforcement agencies may spawn/use(or whatever); Hunters, Hydras and Rhinos.
- Allow the blues to driverdb on bikes. ;)
Now before you hardcore supporters jump on my ass, this isn't moaning. I enjoy playing on this server the way it is... a lot. Even if there are some things which are a tad unjust. I thought I'd explain it the way I see it and hopefully demonstrate that this addition would be very unfair. :D
Given the amount of advantages cops already have, do criminals REALLY need a rule scrutinising them even further? NOANY! :neutral:
CHEA'
I can't be arsed reading the rest but it's utterly stupid to assume that a cop is expected to acknowledge a criminal before the criminal is about to shoot. Although I understand the general argument put forth, regarding cops losing money after killing a person who is not suspected...I cannot help but feel that the scripts should be scrutinised.
I personally wasn't aware of this "rule" up until I was tempbanned a couple of months back.
I have also noticed that CERTAIN SAPD members are using this rule to there advantage by not suspecting blatant aiders.
Implementing a couple of CnR/TDM rules is just ridiculous, when will the scripts/rules stop breast-feeding cops? :skull:
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I have also noticed that CERTAIN SAPD members are using this rule to there advantage by not suspecting blatant aiders.
Or is it the AIDERS' fault that they provoke cops by "aiding" to get suspected just to be able to shoot at them?
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Or is it the AIDERS' fault that they provoke cops by "aiding" to get suspected just to be able to shoot at them?
That would be classified as DM and would be an administrative matter. I do not see why roleplay actions should be limited because of this.
Just in-case you're implying that I'm blaming cops, re-read my post.
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Re-spawning as civilian (because you don't spawn as a suspect) and killing a cop for a crime someone else did is death matching, because person is unrelated and has no valid reason to do so. If the person states he's the previous criminal (that's dead) to become related, he's "returning after death".
There are numerous ways to tease a policeman. You can simply arrive at a shootout scene and get suspected for aiding. "One more orange man to shoot, herp". Then you'll hear the famous "WTF I didn't do anything, f**k cops". You cannot expect that much knowledge from a policeman. He doesn't have criminal sensor.
How so? What if he wants to bail his friend out? A suspect can, for example, call his buddies in /cb. They will say "lol we won't, its returning after death". Really?
They'll get strapped with heat and barge in on the police.
Carefully read your quote Grzesiek. Throw out this: because person is unrelated and has no valid reason to do so.
and you'll get infinitive bros on shootout scenes.
Since its not regulated already, there's that CnR server people always complain on.
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call his buddies in /cb. They will say "lol we won't, its returning after death". Really?
????????????????????????
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Then you'll hear the famous "WTF I didn't do anything, f**k cops". You cannot expect that much knowledge from a policeman.
These 'criminals' are apart of the problem in my opinion.
I wonder whether they know that being suspected does not automatically mean that you're guilty.
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I have a question on how it works with the rule about not being allowed to shoot at cops to aid friends.
I would like a specific explenaition about that, before someone bans me.
Let's say I am player_1 and my friend, who I know for quite a long time on Argonath, Player_2 (good guy), is in trouble and he is chased by 2 cops. He asks me in /PM to help him, so I grab a car, go after him and catch up with him in my brand new pumped up shining, highly modified, $55,000 Green/Orange Elegy and start shooting at the cops with my Combat. Is this allowed?
When can I aid a friend, when he is in the same group as me? When I am standing next to him? When I am personally involved in the situation? Etc.
It depends on the situation...
1. If it is the mafia HQ and all mafia members are there, cops are trying to arrest one of them, of cos, nonsense if other mafia members will stand and watch it...
In this case members of mafia group will start to shoot back, trying to help the friend... It is ok...
2. Police is chasing some guy and suddenly appears a car with non-wanted civilian who started shooting them... Simply, cops can decide it is a deathmatcher/cophunter... Attack without a reason is not allowed... And this rule plays here not the best role... As for the criminal helper, so for admins who got reports and for sure will freeze you to get the reason of shooting cops...
How to help?
In this case (if you want to shoot cops back) the main target is to get wanted level... Get him into your car and try to get rid of chase... Cops will suspect you for aiding, then aub, your dream became be a reality...
With wanted level you are allowed to help any sort of criminals with any sort of help...
Why is such rule actually?
Well, you see blue nick of cop, you know he can shoot you if you are criminal... So do cops when see a wanted level of your nick... Both sides are equal and do not confuse each other, less misunderstanding, less reports to admins...
What if the mafia members are present at the mafia HQ but aren't suspected?
I answered on it in quoted post... The thing is - attack of mafia members at HQ is expectable and understandable...
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A suspect can, for example, call his buddies in /cb.
And do what? Shoot cops?
There are numerous ways to tease a policeman.
Why would you tease cops? To get suspected and shoot them?
Also, are you implying that you provoke cops to get suspected "for something else" to be able to return to the previous scene and aid your friends? That's still returning, being suspected for "something else" or not.
From quotes posted by Violet - notice how do you get wanted... by helping suspects but not by blasting cops chasing your wanted friend (deathmatching). Or after already dead, not by provoking other cops just to get wanted level ("poor role-play", cop baiting) just to return to previous scene to help wanted friend (returning after death).
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Why would you tease cops? To get suspected and shoot them?
Remember that you don't need a reason nor an explanation once you arrive in a middle of a shootout scene. You'll get suspected easily and identified as an aider or something similar. It is considered as teasing. It takes about 2 seconds. Once you go orange, you can shoot back.
@Violet
Suggest NON shooting options as helping your suspected friend, but you'll end up suspected and it'll turn into a bloody shootout in the end.
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you'll end up suspected and it'll turn into a bloody shootout in the end.
Correct.
It's a proven fact... The less used command by cops is: /me.
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I certainly get where Gandalf's coming from. I've witnessed multiple situations in which a group of officers pinned down in a shootout with gang members have been flanked by apparent non-combatants whose excuses were that they were 'helping their friends'. HOWEVER, certain situations SHOULD allow backup if you get to the location of your friends being pinned down and notify the law enforcement beforehand so they can suspect you as soon as you arrive onto the scene.
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I certainly get where Gandalf's coming from. I've witnessed multiple situations in which a group of officers pinned down in a shootout with gang members have been flanked by apparent non-combatants whose excuses were that they were 'helping their friends'. HOWEVER, certain situations SHOULD allow backup if you get to the location of your friends being pinned down and notify the law enforcement beforehand so they can suspect you as soon as you arrive onto the scene.
Ill have to agree, if people can just rock up and shoot the cops whilst "helping" friends without the cops knowing it is basically deathmatching/cophunting as it is other players that where not involved coming along and joining in. If they inform the cops before hand, so basically an ambush it is no problem, but it is simply like civilians walking up and shooting cops in the back.
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I think most criminals and cop forget about one important thing, Roleplay.. I see a unarmed criminal running down the streets, i see two cops running after and shooting an unarmed suspect..
about kidnapping, i call one FBI agent and tell him to come to a location ALONE, im not in that location of course but i got a scout there who i got constant contact with, after 5 minutes he tells me that 25 cops just arrived. Too bad there was noone to catch there.
I hold a knife ready to cut some guys throat, 10 cops arrive and shoots both of us before even giving a warning ( i die and the hostage had very little HP left)
As a cop i ran after a unarmed suspect, he runs for a while till he finds a car. he steals the car and tries to get away, i open his door and pull him out for evading and refusing to listen, and he starts flame the crap outta me.
Lets say im in a small shootout with some cops, i take cover and call the prospects of the club to back me up. they arrive and shoots at the cops so they take cover and we can drive away.
When you call someone like in the case above, its fully RP as it is what people accualy do in real life.
What i do not find as a RP reason to help out other criminal is when the criminal runs over to his HQ and give his buddy weapons so they can shoot the cops.
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I used to be a cop 'till I understood that our job was not about RPing... Hence why I joined criminals groups then.
Remove: /m1, /m2, /m3, /s1, /s2, /s3. - It's just limiting RP...
The cops knows, once he has done /m1 or any of the commands above, he's allowed to shoot and kill.
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2Pac - Changes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psBEj6cUXyk#)
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I used to be a cop 'till I understood that our job was not about RPing... Hence why I joined criminals groups then.
Remove: /m1, /m2, /m3, /s1, /s2, /s3. - It's just limiting RP...
The cops knows, once he has done /m1 or any of the commands above, he's allowed to shoot and kill.
Incorrect.
He is available to suspect for evading. However, such petty crime IMO is not equal to death punishment.
ONLY if a civilian draws his weapon and assaults the officer.
However, police needs to actually RP and leave an impression on the suspect that he'll NOT get shot as soon as he exits the car.
Thus, we conclude that the problem is:
Communication Breakdown-Led Zeppelin Lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWUBHA2DBDA#)
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Incorrect.
He is available to suspect for evading. However, such petty crime IMO is not equal to death punishment.
ONLY if a civilian draws his weapon and assaults the officer.
You know, maybe better than me, that it doesn't work that way... :razz:
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You know, maybe better than me, that it doesn't work that way... :razz:
It was different before .... but that was before.
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You know, maybe better than me, that it doesn't work that way... :razz:
And the reason for that is all the untrained officers running around with no ground set to run on, no one has told them how the system works, they come from Cops & Robbers servers and think its the same here, do a single command then shoot to kill, not to incapacitate and jail the suspects. ;)
It was different before .... but that was before.
Times change, and change is neccesary for growth. We will have to adapt and overcome the hickups in order to regrow with morals and boundaries.
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It was different before .... but that was before.
Nothing will ever be like before.
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And the reason for that is all the untrained officers running around with no ground set to run on, no one has told them how the system works, they come from Cops & Robbers servers and think its the same here, do a single command then shoot to kill, not to incapacitate and jail the suspects. ;)
I'm not talking about newcommers <those are the best cops.
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I'm not talking about newcommers <those are the best cops.
So if it isnt the new players which you feel are causing the problems, higher ranked cops should be watched for fault and punished for any rule breaking and abuse of rights. Due to the simple fact that new players will look at high ranked officers as idols and do as they do which leads to bad habbits and rulebreaking.
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I'm not talking about newcommers <those are the best cops.
http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/index.php?board=52.0 (http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/index.php?board=52.0)
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Due to the simple fact that new players will look at high ranked officers as idols and do as they do which leads to bad habbits and rulebreaking.
Yes - they always pick the wrong role-models.
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Respawning as another generic cop is not "returning after death". One cop is dead, and another one is replacing the dead one in the chase.
Respawning as civilian (because you don't spawn as a suspect) and killing a cop for a crime someone else did is deathmatching, because person is unrelated and has no valid reason to do so. If the person states he's the previous criminal (that's dead) to become related, he's "returning after death".
LOL so your saying the police force has unlimited bodies and infinity people but civilians/criminals(which in real life a lot more civilians than cops 'yeah i know') have limited people? God... wtf is that.
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LOL so your saying the police force has unlimited bodies and infinity people but civilians/criminals(which in real life a lot more civilians than cops 'yeah i know') have limited people? God... wtf is that.
Argonath RPG isn't a real life rpg server so plz, don't compare argonath rpg with real life.
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Argonath RPG isn't a real life rpg server so plz, don't compare argonath rpg with real life.
dunno if trolling or what. but I was using it as an example (note 'yeah i know')... If gandalf wants to use the irl comparison (I still believe what he says is a valid argument, in return mine should be thought of as such), then I will to to make a point.
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This rule is clearly not enforced since it happens multiple times a die.
>Cops chase guy
>Guy kills cop
>Cop brings friends
>Criminal brings friends
What is wrong with bringing backup? What else would a criminal group have /cb for?
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LOL so your saying the police force has unlimited bodies and infinity people but civilians/criminals(which in real life a lot more civilians than cops 'yeah i know') have limited people? God... wtf is that.
I'm saying this works like in GTA single player rather than real life. You get wanted, you get infinite cops after you, while you are one. You die - chase is stopped, because criminal got punished for his crime (with death).
Civilians are not limited, they can respawn as many times they want (just they can't return / "load game" into the previous chase). Criminals don't respawn as suspects, they spawn as civilians too (with no crime).
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I'm saying this works like in GTA single player rather than real life. You get wanted, you get infinite cops after you, while you are one. You die - chase is stopped, because criminal got punished for his crime (with death).
Civilians are not limited, they can respawn as many times they want (just they can't return / "load game" into the previous chase). Criminals don't respawn as suspects, they spawn as civilians too (with no crime).
Why not have a single player like system where if you do not commit a crime for a small amount of time after using a Pay n' Spray, you lose wanted status? :D
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Locked. Do not like our rules ? Don't play. Everyone happy.