The Eternal Issue

[Antonio.]

I don't know how you think that copban is unfair. Like that nigga just ignored both sapd and fbi and proceeds to jail a nigga wanted for idk 9 hours for 15 fucking seconds.
Like if you murder 10 people IRL then you will get a 150 year sentence or life imprisonment or be hanged. Not 2 months of jail time and no investigation by cops.

As mentioned earlier by Mircea, the disagreements are there due to the fact it was dead cops detaining and copbanning the aforementioned officer.

Second, Argonath now lacks the playerbase to maintain the no return rule. You simply don't have enough people to replace dead ones.
If each person in Command Staff "dies" let's say 2 hours ago and somebody is still wanted then freecops can't go breaching regulations and orders as they like.

Both VC:MP and IV:MP had a playerbase higher than Samp for almost an year but returning after death after a certain time limit is allowed to Police officers since technically police departments have a large workforce and more backup could be called.

I would not really justify the ban as wrong. But it would've been better if a Non-Dead officer cop banned him. But the cop ban was inevitable anyhow.

When have you last been in-game, lol? I always notice the majority of the server being cops, therefore the return rule shouldn't be placed back, because all it does is create 100 shootouts instead of one where one side dies. And everyone is asking for changes regarding roleplay standards, so that would also not make sense.

You're speaking out in terms of SAPD regulations being handled OOCly, this was a case of IC corruption by a freecop, which isn't the same.

[Marcel]

Having been away from the server for a long time, one is able to put things into perspective a bit better.

While working on my return, it seems as if the one true eternal issue is topics like these. More specifically, it is the point these topics tend to focus on. While the aim of the game should be to play and create an enjoyable atmosphere for all in this ancient game, the aim of such topics is finger pointing towards other players and groups.

My suggestion would be to give each other the benefit of the doubt. If you really must discuss an issue you might have, choose a different tone in your initial post. A more open tone attracts a better discussion and possibly a worthwhile result in the end.

[Bas]

I don't know how you think that copban is unfair. Like that nigga just ignored both sapd and fbi and proceeds to jail a nigga wanted for idk 9 hours for 15 fucking seconds.
Like if you murder 10 people IRL then you will get a 150 year sentence or life imprisonment or be hanged. Not 2 months of jail time and no investigation by cops.

As mentioned earlier by Mircea, the disagreements are there due to the fact it was dead cops detaining and copbanning the aforementioned officer.

Second, Argonath now lacks the playerbase to maintain the no return rule. You simply don't have enough people to replace dead ones.
If each person in Command Staff "dies" let's say 2 hours ago and somebody is still wanted then freecops can't go breaching regulations and orders as they like.

Both VC:MP and IV:MP had a playerbase higher than Samp for almost an year but returning after death after a certain time limit is allowed to Police officers since technically police departments have a large workforce and more backup could be called.

I would not really justify the ban as wrong. But it would've been better if a Non-Dead officer cop banned him. But the cop ban was inevitable anyhow.

When have you last been in-game, lol? I always notice the majority of the server being cops, therefore the return rule shouldn't be placed back, because all it does is create 100 shootouts instead of one where one side dies. And everyone is asking for changes regarding roleplay standards, so that would also not make sense.

You're speaking out in terms of SAPD regulations being handled OOCly, this was a case of IC corruption by a freecop, which isn't the same.

To be honest a few months back there were no cops at all, now we've finaly been able to resurrect it and what do we get? Nothing but cries about unfairness, unrp conduct and in general unfair treatment of the community. We've all got time to post walls of text on topics like these that even the star wars introduction would fall short to. But actually helping SAPD improve by reporting issues directly to command is too much effort. I'm right about done trying to cater to the community in terms of fairness if no one is willing to reach out to us. Either contribute to a solution or keep quiet.

[Jeremy.]

I don't know how you think that copban is unfair. Like that nigga just ignored both sapd and fbi and proceeds to jail a nigga wanted for idk 9 hours for 15 fucking seconds.
Like if you murder 10 people IRL then you will get a 150 year sentence or life imprisonment or be hanged. Not 2 months of jail time and no investigation by cops.

As mentioned earlier by Mircea, the disagreements are there due to the fact it was dead cops detaining and copbanning the aforementioned officer.

Second, Argonath now lacks the playerbase to maintain the no return rule. You simply don't have enough people to replace dead ones.
If each person in Command Staff "dies" let's say 2 hours ago and somebody is still wanted then freecops can't go breaching regulations and orders as they like.

Both VC:MP and IV:MP had a playerbase higher than Samp for almost an year but returning after death after a certain time limit is allowed to Police officers since technically police departments have a large workforce and more backup could be called.

I would not really justify the ban as wrong. But it would've been better if a Non-Dead officer cop banned him. But the cop ban was inevitable anyhow.

When have you last been in-game, lol? I always notice the majority of the server being cops, therefore the return rule shouldn't be placed back, because all it does is create 100 shootouts instead of one where one side dies. And everyone is asking for changes regarding roleplay standards, so that would also not make sense.

You're speaking out in terms of SAPD regulations being handled OOCly, this was a case of IC corruption by a freecop, which isn't the same.

To be honest a few months back there were no cops at all, now we've finaly been able to resurrect it and what do we get? Nothing but cries about unfairness, unrp conduct and in general unfair treatment of the community. We've all got time to post walls of text on topics like these that even the star wars introduction would fall short to. But actually helping SAPD improve by reporting issues directly to command is too much effort. I'm right about done trying to cater to the community in terms of fairness if no one is willing to reach out to us. Either contribute to a solution or keep quiet.

I would suggest you to find another excuse, apparently this one is pretty old and it's annoying also. The first person from SAPD which is guilty for all those discusess regarding poor roleplay and deathmatch is none other than, the leader of it. You know pretty well who are the respective individuals causing this kind of chaos and the fact that you pretend not to have seen anything and leave it that way is the main reason of people not reporting it "in terms of fairness". Instead of sitting on your ass and doing literally nothing, take the lead and take measures to lower the amount of cancer your "trusted" people are expanding, not just as a police officer, yet in the whole community.

I have seen you multiple times just logging in to drive-by people with M4 so I guess we can't expect anything else from you. If you want improvement, start by yourself.

[JackDockz]

Guys the server just got back up. We shouldn't kill it again so soon atleast.

Instead organise a good civilised meeting with different groups and the HQ and everyone can state their problems and opinions. If they HQ doesn't listen then riot

[Jeremy.]

Guys the server just got back up. We shouldn't kill it again so soon atleast.

Instead organise a good civilised meeting with different groups and the HQ and everyone can state their problems and opinions. If they HQ doesn't listen then riot

+1

[Stivi]

Aight Bas I can PM you names. You do the same and see how we do? Maybe arguing in-game and on the forums is pointless without fixing ourselves first. I still get shit by your cops for a tempban for "refusing to RP" (that got revoked and I also got unsuspected) and they shit on the admins involved and refuse to look at themselves and see how they were "treating me unfairly" or "conducting themselves in a poor rp manner".

[Aca]

Spoiler for Hiden:

Where is the end of video? 

[Chase]

I would like to avoid locking this topic, so please if anyone plans to derail this topic to at least 9000 percent, please don't. If you need help, you can google how to have a civil discussion. Here's a decent one: https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-have-a-civil-discussion-about-divisive-issues/

Just saying that before it happens, because it probably will.

[Bas]

I don't know how you think that copban is unfair. Like that nigga just ignored both sapd and fbi and proceeds to jail a nigga wanted for idk 9 hours for 15 fucking seconds.
Like if you murder 10 people IRL then you will get a 150 year sentence or life imprisonment or be hanged. Not 2 months of jail time and no investigation by cops.

As mentioned earlier by Mircea, the disagreements are there due to the fact it was dead cops detaining and copbanning the aforementioned officer.

Second, Argonath now lacks the playerbase to maintain the no return rule. You simply don't have enough people to replace dead ones.
If each person in Command Staff "dies" let's say 2 hours ago and somebody is still wanted then freecops can't go breaching regulations and orders as they like.

Both VC:MP and IV:MP had a playerbase higher than Samp for almost an year but returning after death after a certain time limit is allowed to Police officers since technically police departments have a large workforce and more backup could be called.

I would not really justify the ban as wrong. But it would've been better if a Non-Dead officer cop banned him. But the cop ban was inevitable anyhow.

When have you last been in-game, lol? I always notice the majority of the server being cops, therefore the return rule shouldn't be placed back, because all it does is create 100 shootouts instead of one where one side dies. And everyone is asking for changes regarding roleplay standards, so that would also not make sense.

You're speaking out in terms of SAPD regulations being handled OOCly, this was a case of IC corruption by a freecop, which isn't the same.

To be honest a few months back there were no cops at all, now we've finaly been able to resurrect it and what do we get? Nothing but cries about unfairness, unrp conduct and in general unfair treatment of the community. We've all got time to post walls of text on topics like these that even the star wars introduction would fall short to. But actually helping SAPD improve by reporting issues directly to command is too much effort. I'm right about done trying to cater to the community in terms of fairness if no one is willing to reach out to us. Either contribute to a solution or keep quiet.

I would suggest you to find another excuse, apparently this one is pretty old and it's annoying also. The first person from SAPD which is guilty for all those discusess regarding poor roleplay and deathmatch is none other than, the leader of it. You know pretty well who are the respective individuals causing this kind of chaos and the fact that you pretend not to have seen anything and leave it that way is the main reason of people not reporting it "in terms of fairness". Instead of sitting on your ass and doing literally nothing, take the lead and take measures to lower the amount of cancer your "trusted" people are expanding, not just as a police officer, yet in the whole community.

I have seen you multiple times just logging in to drive-by people with M4 so I guess we can't expect anything else from you. If you want improvement, start by yourself.

I don't think you can judge how much effort is getting put on a daily base into the SAPD, and I don't blame you since literaly everything is off limits for you expect for operation greyhound which is public and started today. I appreciate Stiven's feedback since it is constructive and he shows willingness to work this out. You on the other hand seem to enjoy to blame everyone but yourself and that's all fine. But don't expect me to put any effort into whatever the point is you want to make. I'll leave this as my last reply as what stiven said, Talking here is pointless let's just take a good look at ourselfs and see what can improve. Everyone who wants to reach out to me can do so on the arpd forums or discord. And if none of this was sufficient and you still think I don't do anything with your particular feedback.. then you're right because after years of your toxic behavior towards me I no longer really value your opinion.

Let's all just go ingame and enjoy ourselfs instead of continuously re ignite our hatred through the forum

See you all ingame everyone

[Jeremy.]

I don't think you can judge how much effort is getting put on a daily base into the SAPD, and I don't blame you since literaly everything is off limits for you expect for operation greyhound which is public and started today. I appreciate Stiven's feedback since it is constructive and he shows willingness to work this out. You on the other hand seem to enjoy to blame everyone but yourself and that's all fine. But don't expect me to put any effort into whatever the point is you want to make. I'll leave this as my last reply as what stiven said, Talking here is pointless let's just take a good look at ourselfs and see what can improve. Everyone who wants to reach out to me can do so on the arpd forums or discord. And if none of this was sufficient and you still think I don't do anything with your particular feedback.. then you're right because after years of your toxic behavior towards me I no longer really value your opinion.

Let's all just go ingame and enjoy ourselfs instead of continuously re ignite our hatred through the forum

See you all ingame everyone

Well, forgive me if I can't say sophisticated words trying to explain you why you shouldn't act innocent and ask for people to 'report if you have a complaint'. You, as a leader, you have to be completely neutral and step in whenever you see your police officers having such a bad initiative of brainwashing everyone from the server. If you can't educate them properly, kick them out. I would rather have 5 police officers in-game rather than 10 out of 15 which, every time they die in a random shootout they have to blame a group and eventually even incite others to act like them. (Reffering to: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=125951.msg1963086#msg1963086) Sure, let's suppose you're not always in-game and you can't see their poor roleplay or deathmatch attempts, or there is no one sumbitting any kind of complaint on your ARPD forums, BUT, you're on that discord, the pictures I posted in the other topic from SAPD discord, it is from the Volunteer chat which is PUBLIC to everyone. You saw it and yet you didn't even care to tell them to shut the fuck up and don't brag about it in a public channel. As I said in my previous post, you didn't do literally anything. Why people should even care to report something which you saw, you're aware of yet you don't do anything regarding it. I'm sorry if I'm hurting your feelings but my points are on topic and are valid points of the concern of most of the players right now. You're being an accomplice to this issue and, I, as a previous SA:MP Administrator and leader of plenty groups which achieved recognized/official status by my assist, I would suggest you to step down from your position. I don't even want to guess what's in the other channels from your discord. In my almost 10 years of gameplay here, I've never saw such a weak SAPD crew. Again, I'm not trying to provoke you in any way, yet trying to have a civilized discussion.

[TedHamilton]

I don't think you can judge how much effort is getting put on a daily base into the SAPD, and I don't blame you since literaly everything is off limits for you expect for operation greyhound which is public and started today. I appreciate Stiven's feedback since it is constructive and he shows willingness to work this out. You on the other hand seem to enjoy to blame everyone but yourself and that's all fine. But don't expect me to put any effort into whatever the point is you want to make. I'll leave this as my last reply as what stiven said, Talking here is pointless let's just take a good look at ourselfs and see what can improve. Everyone who wants to reach out to me can do so on the arpd forums or discord. And if none of this was sufficient and you still think I don't do anything with your particular feedback.. then you're right because after years of your toxic behavior towards me I no longer really value your opinion.

Let's all just go ingame and enjoy ourselfs instead of continuously re ignite our hatred through the forum

See you all ingame everyone

Well, forgive me if I can't say sophisticated words trying to explain you why you shouldn't act innocent and ask for people to 'report if you have a complaint'. You, as a leader, you have to be completely neutral and step in whenever you see your police officers having such a bad initiative of brainwashing everyone from the server. If you can't educate them properly, kick them out. I would rather have 5 police officers in-game rather than 10 out of 15 which, every time they die in a random shootout they have to blame a group and eventually even incite others to act like them. (Reffering to: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=125951.msg1963086#msg1963086) Sure, let's suppose you're not always in-game and you can't see their poor roleplay or deathmatch attempts, or there is no one sumbitting any kind of complaint on your ARPD forums, BUT, you're on that discord, the pictures I posted in the other topic from SAPD discord, it is from the Volunteer chat which is PUBLIC to everyone. You saw it and yet you didn't even care to tell them to shut the fuck up and don't brag about it in a public channel. As I said in my previous post, you didn't do literally anything. Why people should even care to report something which you saw, you're aware of yet you don't do anything regarding it. I'm sorry if I'm hurting your feelings but my points are on topic and are valid points of the concern of most of the players right now. You're being an accomplice to this issue and, I, as a previous SA:MP Administrator and leader of plenty groups which achieved recognized/official status by my assist, I would suggest you to step down from your position. I don't even want to guess what's in the other channels from your discord. In my almost 10 years of gameplay here, I've never saw such a weak SAPD crew. Again, I'm not trying to provoke you in any way, yet trying to have a civilized discussion.

You can't call for a civilized discussion when your own discourse is provocative and accusing. Review the tone of your passage.

[AryaN]

Cop vs criminal has always been the problem and will always be. You cannot eliminate this at all but can make a constructive effort to minimize it. Instead of asking your rivals to PM you and sort this out, take the initiative yourself. Set the time, organize an OOC meeting consisting leaders of every group. This was done in past too and it worked out better than expected. It is worth a try.

As stivi said,  3 hour rule was especially set up for gang wars and is only valid for gang wars means no matter what your RP reason is,  if your rival group has killed you then you are not allowed approach them until 3 hours passed. This rule was clarified to everyone. If you remember, a dialogue message (containing this rule) used to pop up upon login when this rule was imposed and this stayed for several months. Although during my period of administration, there were many players who had no idea where this rule applies and this is because somewhere administration failed to enforce this rule to the right place.

About zlatan copban, it's not fair but is sensible why the copban was issued. You cannot make your rp as perfect as in real life because this is Gta world with its limited resources and restrictions.
Consider a freecop killed the sapd chief and got copbanned for 7 days(equivalent to perm ban from sapd in real life). Considering the fairness, his punishment should remain in existence until the roleplay is in force but you cannot restrict sapd chief to remain dead for 7 days and thus chief must resume his duty even if its immediately after his death but the freecop has to remain banned 7 days for killing chief(to serve his punishment as perm ban) 

We have to make compromises accordingly. I'm not enforcing any way out from realistic rp. These are just few gray areas to which we have to adjust with.

I'm not here criticizing any group. Feel free to counter my opinions and lets try looking at it with a common perspective.

[Stivi]

As stivi said,  3 hour rule was especially set up for gang wars and is only valid for gang wars means no matter what your RP reason is,  if your rival group has killed you then you are not allowed approach them until 3 hours passed. This rule was clarified to everyone.

False. I didn't say this. Clearly still lacks clarification. If a rival group killed you, you CAN'T return, not now, not 3 hours later, not ever. Move the fuck on.


You want to remove cops vs criminals? Add civilians to the mix: judges, lawyers, mayors, and make HQ able to intervene in legal matters. Let's take a very simple example (other than the one that lead to /mir removal ):

FBI has investigated me for two months, they now want to arrest me and prosecute me. They might come arrest me based on at which I will respond with "do you have a warrant?" and call my lawyer, who should have the power to stop the illegal arrest. Let's suppose they don't, they go back. But now I know they are after me, so I, the rule-abiding criminal arm up to the teeth, get level 10 notoriety and start talking shit on public chat when a cop throws a .cb provocation. What happens is, we don't have a judge to approve a warrant, so the FBI that was after me does it themselves. FBI director (currently Mircea, a very active player in the cop-scene) can judge and execute a warrant all by himself. Which would be okay if the FBI director had someone to tell him "U done fucked up, ure fired". They come to me and attempt to arrest me again, to which I respond with three molotovs and two sniper cases, resulting in me dying before I throw my second molotov because I suck at shooting. Voila, that RP ended. Now I could RP with them, if I didn't know that it was the cop after me who approved the warrant to go after me.

You see the issues we have and how we come up with rules from 2008 to get out of them and then Mircea makes a topic that says it's bullshit, and we agree and point out the problems, but then it gets locked because I mentioned a name that I probably also reported to HQ and they supposedly investigated and as the player isn't punished, that just makes me look dumb? Better lock it.

About Zlatan's copban, some of the cops were not dead and allowed to go after Zlatan. The problem is, it was Mircea who lead that action, who was dead. And none of us was moaning about it, it's just that I thought cops had a hard time chewing the fact they died in a GTA game and decided to go after an "accomplice". Btw, I couldn't care less about Zlatan OOC or IC, I almost never interacted with him, but still we're "the moaning legion" because we don't agree xd And I think it's pointless discussing his copban now, as it probably expired, let's focus on the rules that led to it being discussed.