Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Hammer_ on May 11, 2022, 04:55:10 am

Title: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 11, 2022, 04:55:10 am
I felt like there's a need for a different topic. I'll be willing to join back, work with anything, bring in more players and start from scratch with the basic factions of Argonath. We need an active ARPD, the heart of the server which is, and multiple criminal ACTIVE factions. Certain things need to be done, bringing in some of the old players via methods the other server did would work. It can not focus solely on RP, and having Argo become a Fort Carson based server was the end of it. I wasn't against the idea initially, but atleast the low-key playerbase that was present was needed too. It all went away, over the years, toxicity from the players, the HQ, and overall everyone included has driven many people away. The stubbornness of the players and as well as the HQ was the cause of it. It's now time to win over certain individuals who can bring back activity in the server, I'd be willing to work on this. Of course, good scripts are needed, professional role-play is needed, but all in all, entertainment is also needed. That's not just random events with big prizes, no, it's also the shoot-outs, gang wars, mafia wars, etc. that are needed again.
Feel free to give this a feedback, and drop suggestions below. Perhaps this could lead to the resurrection of Argonath after all.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 11, 2022, 05:07:29 am
I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 11, 2022, 05:09:55 am
I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.
Not exactly bribing with in-game perks, or big ranks provided, no. I generally meant that with the support of the HQ providing with resources as a backbone to groups that can make a difference. If the HQ would still like to revive the Argo SA:MP server, perhaps we could have one last go at it.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 11, 2022, 05:16:51 am
I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.
Not exactly bribing with in-game perks, or big ranks provided, no. I generally meant that with the support of the HQ providing with resources as a backbone to groups that can make a difference. If the HQ would still like to revive the Argo SA:MP server, perhaps we could have one last go at it.

We just had one last go at it. Back last year in July 2021, I joined as a developer and we had JDC as a manager and both of us were leading the server. We did alright for the circumstances and peaked at 20 players on one day. Other than that, 10 players were the average concurrent players. We had some people from another community, old Gvardia players who came and wanted to do something similar to what you are saying here. Though, it felt like a coup than them wanting to help. After a few days where we didn't give them shit in game and such, they left after deathmatching admins and saying racial slurs. So what happened after that was what always happens, lack of interest, JDC going inactive and I then slowed down my development. I burned out of SAMP back in December because of how unfriendly it is to develop in for a server. Since then, Brian, myself and others have talked about MTA SA and it sounds exciting to us. I didn't expect anyone to be on board with it but the community seems to show some interest in the idea. I think MTA SA is a more powerful platform but it does have it's drawbacks. English servers don't seem to be as common and starting from scratch is a hurdle in itself. Though, we believe it's worth to continue with it and see what we can do. I would recommend checking out that survey and letting us know what you think.

I personally think what's best for the future of this community is finally saying, we tried with SAMP and it was a great success in the past but it's time to say goodbye and see into the future. I see MTA SA as that future since there are a decent amount of people who are interested to see what we can do there. I can't offer you much except hopefully a fun experience on the MTA SA server when that releases.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 11, 2022, 05:23:44 am
I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.
Not exactly bribing with in-game perks, or big ranks provided, no. I generally meant that with the support of the HQ providing with resources as a backbone to groups that can make a difference. If the HQ would still like to revive the Argo SA:MP server, perhaps we could have one last go at it.

We just had one last go at it. Back last year in July 2021, I joined as a developer and we had JDC as a manager and both of us were leading the server. We did alright for the circumstances and peaked at 20 players on one day. Other than that, 10 players were the average concurrent players. We had some people from another community, old Gvardia players who came and wanted to do something similar to what you are saying here. Though, it felt like a coup than them wanting to help. After a few days where we didn't give them shit in game and such, they left after deathmatching admins and saying racial slurs. So what happened after that was what always happens, lack of interest, JDC going inactive and I then slowed down my development. I burned out of SAMP back in December because of how unfriendly it is to develop in for a server. Since then, Brian, myself and others have talked about MTA SA and it sounds exciting to us. I didn't expect anyone to be on board with it but the community seems to show some interest in the idea. I think MTA SA is a more powerful platform but it does have it's drawbacks. English servers don't seem to be as common and starting from scratch is a hurdle in itself. Though, we believe it's worth to continue with it and see what we can do. I would recommend checking out that survey and letting us know what you think.

I personally think what's best for the future of this community is finally saying, we tried with SAMP and it was a great success in the past but it's time to say goodbye and see into the future. I see MTA SA as that future since there are a decent amount of people who are interested to see what we can do there. I can't offer you much except hopefully a fun experience on the MTA SA server when that releases.
Perhaps then we can go for MTA, I'll try the server today. I'll give feedback, if it's something we can count on for some years then I'm on board, until the FiveM server finally hits off, perhaps we can pull it off. I'd prefer having an Argo FiveM server rather than Rage as FiveM is more active, and perhaps be prepared to launch a heavy RP schedule with some heavy advertisements. HQ support for the new groups starting would be vital, as well as the main factions such as the ARPD, ARFD, etc. We have to primarily think of V:MP alongside the revival of Argonath, in MTA. Make Argo great again! Would need a structured administration, structured and active PD, other active criminal factions as well to attract players(works for both V:MP and MTA). It's hard to say goodbye to Argo SA:MP, but oh well.. perhaps it's healthier for all of us.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 11, 2022, 05:31:23 am
Perhaps then we can go for MTA, I'll try the server today. I'll give feedback, if it's something we can count on for some years then I'm on board, until the FiveM server finally hits off, perhaps we can pull it off. I'd prefer having an Argo FiveM server rather than Rage as FiveM is more active, and perhaps be prepared to launch a heavy RP schedule with some heavy advertisements. HQ support for the new groups starting would be vital, as well as the main factions such as the ARPD, ARFD, etc. We have to primarily think of V:MP alongside the revival of Argonath, in MTA. Make Argo great again! Would need a structured administration, structured and active PD, other active criminal factions as well to attract players(works for both V:MP and MTA). It's hard to say goodbye to Argo SA:MP, but oh well.. perhaps it's healthier for all of us.

The server won't be up for some time, there is currently no time frame yet. Outside of initial testing back in January, there was no real plan on executing this until a week ago. We are still working on a plan for the server but we released a survey to gather information from players and see. I would recommend checking it out and putting your thoughts.

https://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=129922.0

I loved SAMP at one point as well, I grew up with it back in RS4. I wrote an entire topic on this board about it. My love letter to SAMP. I don't hate SAMP, it's just that sometimes we have to let things go in order to grow. I don't know if MTA SA will be successful, there's a lot of reasons it could fail. There's also a lot of reasons why it may succeed. Nothing is ever certain but you can at least estimate. FiveM is also not certain. Even though it's new, there's a lot of competition out there but a lot of players. There is a quote I go by a lot in these kind of situations:

"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 11, 2022, 05:34:33 am
I'm fine with MTASA, I mean, what's there to dislike? I responded on the survey too.

But I have a question- SAMP isn't dead since there are other English servers which are running with a (at least) 40 player minimum count. Maybe add 20 NPCs as I mentioned in the "why did you leave" topic, just to keep it running till MTASA is up. Who knows if that works, it will be great.

10 cops and 10 civilian NPCs could work.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 11, 2022, 05:38:15 am
Perhaps then we can go for MTA, I'll try the server today. I'll give feedback, if it's something we can count on for some years then I'm on board, until the FiveM server finally hits off, perhaps we can pull it off. I'd prefer having an Argo FiveM server rather than Rage as FiveM is more active, and perhaps be prepared to launch a heavy RP schedule with some heavy advertisements. HQ support for the new groups starting would be vital, as well as the main factions such as the ARPD, ARFD, etc. We have to primarily think of V:MP alongside the revival of Argonath, in MTA. Make Argo great again! Would need a structured administration, structured and active PD, other active criminal factions as well to attract players(works for both V:MP and MTA). It's hard to say goodbye to Argo SA:MP, but oh well.. perhaps it's healthier for all of us.

The server won't be up for some time, there is currently no time frame yet. Outside of initial testing back in January, there was no real plan on executing this until a week ago. We are still working on a plan for the server but we released a survey to gather information from players and see. I would recommend checking it out and putting your thoughts.

https://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=129922.0

I loved SAMP at one point as well, I grew up with it back in RS4. I wrote an entire topic on this board about it. My love letter to SAMP. I don't hate SAMP, it's just that sometimes we have to let things go in order to grow. I don't know if MTA SA will be successful, there's a lot of reasons it could fail. There's also a lot of reasons why it may succeed. Nothing is ever certain but you can at least estimate. FiveM is also not certain. Even though it's new, there's a lot of competition out there but a lot of players. There is a quote I go by a lot in these kind of situations:

"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."

- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Hard work is never wasted, never. About FiveM, there are a lot of players that increase day by day. With a proper structured staff team, structured PD, and already running criminal factions, there will be some activity which would attract players. Moreover, with proper advertisement, we could expect a number of players. First attempts were failed at FiveM I guess due to the players not being able to co-operate by setting their egos aside for the greater good, projects like these need people who are dedicated and not those who'd put their own desires above the server. There really is hope that it could be pulled off by co-operation between SA:MP, IV:MP, MTA players I guess. Also, having Gvardias was a mistake, they even had a rift between themselves and broke in 2020. It's just a bunch of toxic grown ups, no offence. Community > Ego. Hopefully we'll be able to achieve great things via MTA, and GTA V.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 11, 2022, 05:39:24 am
I'm fine with MTASA, I mean, what's there to dislike? I responded on the survey too.

But I have a question- SAMP isn't dead since there are other English servers which are running with a (at least) 40 player minimum count. Maybe add 20 NPCs as I mentioned in the "why did you leave" topic, just to keep it running till MTASA is up. Who knows if that works, it will be great.

10 cops and 10 civilian NPCs could work.
I don't have much knowledge about this, but sure. It could work? There's a chance to bring everything back, but requires total co-operation from all parties, and no ego.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 11, 2022, 05:45:18 am
I'm fine with MTASA, I mean, what's there to dislike? I responded on the survey too.

But I have a question- SAMP isn't dead since there are other English servers which are running with a (at least) 40 player minimum count. Maybe add 20 NPCs as I mentioned in the "why did you leave" topic, just to keep it running till MTASA is up. Who knows if that works, it will be great.

10 cops and 10 civilian NPCs could work.

SAMP may still have servers that get players but SAMP itself, the mod is dead. Hell, the internet tab doesn't work. It just reflects the hosted. The SAMP forums are gone. I personally will never develop for SAMP again due to my burn out on it. If there was an active developer and at least a manager leading the server, I could imagine some players playing on it but at my peak, like I said, it was only like 10 - 12 people on a regular basis. The SAMP server isn't going anywhere until the MTA SA server is up anyway, there could be a chance that the SAMP server stays up as well but it's unlikely. Also what kind of NPCs are you expecting? Like actors or actual NPCs that do things and that you can kill like other players? Actors are very limited on what they can do but NPCs that take player slots have more abilities but I don't think they are robust enough to be too interactive but I don't know that for sure. The furthest extent I have seen NPCs do is drive planes and vehicles around on predetermined paths.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 11, 2022, 05:50:06 am
Quote
Also what kind of NPCs are you expecting? Like actors or actual NPCs that do things and that you can kill like other players? Actors are very limited on what they can do but NPCs that take player slots have more abilities but I don't think they are robust enough to be too interactive but I don't know that for sure. The furthest extent I have seen NPCs do is drive planes and vehicles around on predetermined paths.

NPCs that take player slots. Those we can engage with, even if it is for a kill or takedown.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 11, 2022, 05:57:30 am
Quote
Also what kind of NPCs are you expecting? Like actors or actual NPCs that do things and that you can kill like other players? Actors are very limited on what they can do but NPCs that take player slots have more abilities but I don't think they are robust enough to be too interactive but I don't know that for sure. The furthest extent I have seen NPCs do is drive planes and vehicles around on predetermined paths.

NPCs that take player slots. Those we can engage with, even if it is for a kill or takedown.

From my brief search on NPCs and their functions for SAMP. It looks like they could possibly respond to players with text or possibly actions? I don't know if there's a way to have them shoot or do anything complex. There are recording functions that you could record actions and they replay them but that seems limited in scope of what you seem to want. Even if it's possible, it would still take a good amount of time to make and I personally don't want to develop in SAMP anymore. In MTA SA, I have looked around at NPCs and they seem to have more flexibility with theirs than SAMP.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 11, 2022, 06:35:04 am
Ok I understand.

The objective is to just have them walk around (the civilians) and have cops do the same unless any player kills or does a crime with the civilian NPC. So nothing complex I guess but I don't know anything about it. If this is complex, let's not proceed with it, else it's good to have.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 11, 2022, 10:12:38 am
In MTA SA, I have looked around at NPCs and they seem to have more flexibility with theirs than SAMP.

The objective is to just have them walk around (the civilians) and have cops do the same unless any player kills or does a crime with the civilian NPC. So nothing complex I guess but I don't know anything about it. If this is complex, let's not proceed with it, else it's good to have.
In MTA:SA, you can spawn an NPC, and then you need to have code for it. It's like a player, except the server does the input and decides which buttons this "player" presses. That's it, there's almost nothing else you get for free. You can't use any part of single player AI, you will have to code everything yourself.

You have to code where it spawns, when it spawns, why it spawns. If it has to go from place A to B, you have to make paths for it. If it gets stuck on the way, you need to have code for it. What's an obstacle, and what isn't? If it has to attack you, you need to have code for it. You need to control it 24/7.

What's a crime? How should NPC react to it? Is he going to shoot you after you do X? What if somebody else is shooting it, who should it target when there's 2+ players around? If there are 2+ players around, which one will be syncing the NPC? What happens if you die? What happens if the NPC dies?

How do you make it engage in combat and keep it fair for the player? If you take a NPC and simply make it shoot a player, the player will lose 99% of the battles, because it has aimbot aim, lands 100% of its shots and isn't suffering any ping penalties. Does it have to pause when firing? Does it have to miss once in a while? What's it going to do if all players leave streaming range?

There's are hundreds of questions you need to answer, and even after you've figured everything out and coded it, it can easily turn out there's some kind of problem that requires you to remake everything. A bug that causes desync when nobody's looking at an NPC for some time? Stuff like that happens all the time. You need to have at least 2 people to test everything, and it's not always easy to reproduce issues when they happen.

You'll make a perfect system, and tomorrow you'll find out that it isn't perfect, because what worked with 2 players around doesn't work with 10, sync is worse, difference between lowest and highest pings is higher, etc. For one person, it will take too long to perfect it, couple of years of trial & error. It's frustrating to develop, because often you have to throw everything in the trash and start over with nothing, and it won't be your fault.

The more NPCs there are, the more resources the server needs. If one player can have 10 NPCs around him, 10 players in 10 different places spawn 100 (these don't occupy player slots in MTA). Population density becomes an issue, etc., etc., etc. You can write a book about the masochist shit that you have to go through to get somewhere.

And, yeah, it's possible to remake something similar to single player AI, and I've seen that done, and while that was very impressive from a technical perspective, it was still extremely boring.

Meanwhile in FiveM, if I am not wrong, you have access to single player AI from the very beginning, and most (if not all) of the problems above don't apply. Everybody with half a brain can make their own NPC script, it takes a 1/100th of the effort it takes in MTA, but since most people have no taste, the final product is still bland, derivative garbage.

(https://i.imgur.com/6Qw83uH.gif)

That's why MTA:SA servers mostly have NPCs stand around (if they even have them) and not do much else, it takes too much time to end up with something impressive, thousands of hours. All those hours could be spent on creating activities for players. A popular server probably doesn't want to have any non-static NPCs at all, because they will get in the way, eat too much server CPU (pathing is either simple and cheap or complex and expensive resource-wise), and cause all sorts of problems.

Now, if the devs of MTA:SA itself provide more functionality for server developers, incl. single player AI, then it will be interesting. I think that's unlikely to happen, however.

Look at other MTA:SA servers, connect to as many as possible, regardless of language and other things, see what's possible, see what works and what doesn't. Don't "borrow" ideas just to "borrow" them. You need to have your own goals, and your script's purpose is to accomplish it. People get easily distracted, "ooh thats sum shiny shit, i want tht in my server". Shiny shit is still shit. :(
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 11, 2022, 11:28:18 am
Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Sawyer on May 11, 2022, 11:35:25 am
(https://i.imgur.com/6Qw83uH.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/x8yuRTk.gif)



Let's begin again, I guess..

I have never been pessimistic throughout the years in Argonath but let's be honest, due to many failures and empty promises, most of us here always expect the worst when it comes to fancy announcements or changes. While I personally do support the MTA:SA server proposal, with all due to respect to those that are willing to put their valuable time and effort; I do not see it being a successful addition.

.. but why?

Simple. It's 2022, even if we have manage to pull a healthy and progressive MTA:SA server running say five months from now; we're kind of what? 15 years late?

I can't imagine the frustration and disappointment of those who worked for the said server for months just to watch their project blow up in their faces.

Not too many MTA:SA veterans are left in here, let alone around the SA community worldwide. Yes, people would like to try it out, but is a 15 year old platform what we really need? As Nathan has nicely put it once in the past, "it's like putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig."

I, personally, have never tried it even though it was very famous during my time here back in 2009-2010 and definitely am willing to give it a go if the server goes live but I feel it will only pop off at the first month only to decay as the time passes later on. Players will get greedy with continuous demands for server updates, scripts etc. and will eventually get bored of it real quick due to the whole scene being familiar from the recent past as well as GTA SA is a very old game itself. Do we have the necessary hands to handle such heat? Or we're heading straight forward to another shitstorm on forum topics at everything and everyone pointing fingers to one another?

From what I've seen during my (in-game) SA:MP time the last year, it's not the scripts nor the fancy mapping that's missing; it's the motivation and the healthy environment surrounding it. I'm 100% agreeing with Nathan on this one.

There were plenty of SAMPers around during JDC's elections, including those who are supposedly "gone". The reason that was, is that the server itself had a purpose that everyone was able to either follow or simply go against it(in-game wise). We had two experienced candidates (Greasy and myself) that actually provided a lot of opportunity and I loved how everyone in-game played their own part in having a busy server.

There's enough life still around that needs to be pointed at the right direction. The majority has to come to an agreement of what we really wish to seek for in this community. We have independent veterans as well as regulars scattered around the community and for some odd reason they cannot meet with in-game time. Some are interested in VMP, others want to take over completely, some are for the sake of nostalgia, most are your average regular but surely all have a thing in common; are all still interested in seeing this community to be on its feet again.

Make do with whatever life is left in here and for fuck sake let's all be on the same page for once. See what happens then.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 11, 2022, 01:31:49 pm
Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?
Will take a lot of time also. I have seen some NPCs in SA-MP, they were kind of wonky, but also somewhat similar. I don't think you'd be able to make them engage in PvE combat without some kind of custom plugin. If someone already made that, maybe you could convince them to sell or share. That'd be easier. I think I've seen CEF and Lua plugins for SA-MP, so you can theoretically combine all of that into some kind of 0.3.7 DL-based Frankenstein MTA clone. Not sure why'd you want that, though. :neutral2:

The reason that was, is that the server itself had a purpose that everyone was able to either follow or simply go against it(in-game wise).
I guess at some point Argonath started trying to become something different, to go from a welcoming, fun server, where RP was less regulated (and somewhat optional even, tbh) and often a prelude/excuse to DM ( :D ) to a cold, unwelcoming RLRP prison simulator.

Money got yoinked after the downgrade from RS4 to RS5. Nobody wanted to grind, and if you did grind, you wouldn't have wanted to easily share $ that took too long to grind. This disabled money as a RP tool, how do you recover from that? It's self-sabotage.

If script is the main source of money in the economy, and not players themselves (within RP), then you are actively fighting RP, and encouraging dumb grind. So many interactions that were possible in RS4 are impossible now. No, let's start from 0 again, with everybody a poor hobo, because everybody being a poor hobo is so realistic.

If there's a new script, you should be giving like 10x of what people had over time, give them all kinds of assets, HQs, cars, whatever. Where's the fun in doing the same grind every other server has, idk. Regulate later, when there is something to regulate. Why should people, especially those that have been around for years, if not decades, overcome useless hurdles again and again only to have the ability to self-express, to unlock basic RP tools?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 11, 2022, 02:00:51 pm
 I'm all for a discussion, however all I see in this topic is stating the obvious. Sure, we need players to revive it. We need groups, we need factions, we need interactions and activity. But what do we do once there's a few of us returning? How are we going to realistically have multiple groups, when the entire playerbase is less than what used to be a requirement for a group to be created?  :lol:
 
It can not focus solely on RP, and having Argo become a Fort Carson based server was the end of it.

 Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG.

 I find no use or point in multi-paragraph forum posts and other essays. All I can say is - pointing out what "we need", is an incorrect approach. We need a revival and the sky is blue, it's just pointing out the obvious. Where many other RP servers/communities flourished - Argo failed. And that is in maintaining the client/server/game as a canvas for RP and storytelling. We fucked up. We overdosed on TDM and turned into a TRPG server, where group allegiances dictate if you go In Game or not. People care more about what group they're in than how they present themselves, while at the same time they create another 200 groups of the same members.

 Since the main point is what could bring back the SA:MP server, I'll be brief:
 * Revision and cleanup of the group system. Throwing out the old trash only to fill in with the new was done enough, to be proven inefficient.
 * Remove the multi-accounting rule - let us have multiple accounts for different characters. I'm not aware if anything made it worse, but back in the day spotting ban-evaders was easy.
 * HQ should forget about the "it can be abused. denied." attitude for ideas. Stop antagonizing the playerbase. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure people do not abuse scripts, but rejecting essential updates because someone can be a retard is just laziness. (Applies to all servers, not just SAMP).
 * Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. PLAYERBASE =/= ACTIVITY. Interact with eachother, don't grind the scripts. If you wish to drive a truck, fly a plane, grow weed and be left in peace - there's enough Singleplayer mods that allow you to do that. When joining SAMP(MP=MULTIplayer), you're there to play with others, not roam around on your own.
 * Transparency - HQ and players should be open about any discussion. I'm tired of the "we're working on more important things" from HQ/Server Leads. No you're not, you're busy, you're not interested, you can't be arsed, you don't think it's a good idea, you don't like the player who suggested it. Fine. It's all fine. But don't bullshit us, we've been around for too long. Sure, Nathan can be vocal about it and that's why he's everywhere, but what about the times when I reached out to HQ? Didn't even get a "thanks for your interest".
 * Stop expecting change to happen and requesting it, be the change. It can work out. If not, use it as a lesson.

 I'm tired of trying myself, I managed to get the Fort Carson Project from a little quiet town we escaped drama and made or own rules to the hill that SAMP died on. But if you somehow manage to get SAMP back active I will do my best to stop by.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Sawyer on May 11, 2022, 02:47:18 pm
I guess at some point Argonath started trying to become something different, to go from a welcoming, fun server, where RP was less regulated (and somewhat optional even, tbh) and often a prelude/excuse to DM. :D
I might add that this "heavy RP server" argument also kind of split the server in half in terms of the healthy environment I mentioned earlier.

HeAVy RP, LiGhT RP, MeDiOCrE RP my ass. Nobody EVER wanted to be fined a ticket for not following traffic lights, or be thrown into jail for driving onto a sidewalk to remind us that we are a RPG community. Ridiculous.

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 11, 2022, 02:57:21 pm
I find no use or point in multi-paragraph forum posts and other essays.
He wrote, in the third paragraph of his essay. ^

We overdosed on TDM and turned into a TRPG server, where group allegiances dictate if you go In Game or not. People care more about what group they're in than how they present themselves, while at the same time they create another 200 groups of the same members.
Isn't this how it always was, though?

* Remove the multi-accounting rule - let us have multiple accounts for different characters. I'm not aware if anything made it worse, but back in the day spotting ban-evaders was easy.
Or 1 account = multiple characters, that's also common. Login/acc name doesn't have to match character name.

I'm tired of trying myself, I managed to get the Fort Carson Project from a little quiet town we escaped drama and made or own rules to the hill that SAMP died on. But if you somehow manage to get SAMP back active I will do my best to stop by.
It shouldn't be you who's trying, though. Should be the server owner, who is supposed to be the most motivated and active person, because, after all, this is supposed to be their community.

Why should anyone play in Gandalf's & Aragorn's server, if they don't play themselves? Why should anyone be motivated, if they're not? Do something, if they're not doing anything?

Communities with active, playing leaders/owners always do better.

HeAVy RP, LiGhT RP, MeDiOCrE RP my ass. Nobody EVER wanted to be fined a ticket for not following traffic lights, or be thrown into jail for driving onto a sidewalk to remind us that we are a RPG community. Ridiculous.
The original playerbase wasn't looking for RLRP either. Wouldn't have stayed in the first place if that's what they were looking for.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 11, 2022, 03:59:16 pm
Or 1 account = multiple characters, that's also common. Login/acc name doesn't have to match character name.

We did have a multi-character script for quite a while, not sure why it was removed. But changing your skin does not mean you are changing your character. If I want to roleplay a Police Officer, I'd like a separate start in which I no longer own my houses full of drugs, bought with drug money. I also find it ridiculous how many people avoided RP situations by saying "I was a different character at the time". Not sure if you've ever played D&D or any other tabletop RPG, but you can't have one character sheet, with the same inventory, level and skill for multiple others. Doesn't work out.

Generally the idea is to split properties/assets/stats based on the character you're playing, don't really care about the name honestly.

It shouldn't be you who's trying, though. Should be the server owner, who is supposed to be the most motivated and active person, because, after all, this is supposed to be their community.

 They have not been involved in any matter whatsoever since RS5 from my standpoint. If you want something done right, then you should do it yourself.

Isn't this how it always was, though?

 Not when I initially joined. Groups got along, people had fun. It wasn't as toxic and aggressive as it was the last few years of activity.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 11, 2022, 04:17:30 pm
Or 1 account = multiple characters, that's also common. Login/acc name doesn't have to match character name.

We did have a multi-character script for quite a while, not sure why it was removed. But changing your skin does not mean you are changing your character. If I want to roleplay a Police Officer, I'd like a separate start in which I no longer own my houses full of drugs, bought with drug money. I also find it ridiculous how many people avoided RP situations by saying "I was a different character at the time". Not sure if you've ever played D&D or any other tabletop RPG, but you can't have one character sheet, with the same inventory, level and skill for multiple others. Doesn't work out.

Generally the idea is to split properties/assets/stats based on the character you're playing, don't really care about the name honestly.

This is part of my initial plan for MTA SA, one of the core concepts will be a character system. This will be the official way to roleplay different characters. As well, they share nothing with the other characters. Properties, vehicles, inventory, etc will be tied to each character and not the account. This will hopefully prevent the bullshit scenarios we all had before where it just ruins the fun for everyone. One account will be used for logging in and then you will be prompted with a character selection/creation screen.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 11, 2022, 04:22:37 pm
Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?
I think I've seen CEF and Lua plugins for SA-MP, so you can theoretically combine all of that into some kind of 0.3.7 DL-based Frankenstein MTA clone. Not sure why'd you want that, though. :neutral2:


Actually, all I was suggesting was to have the Frankensteins walk and die when they are shot or run over.

Here is why that came up:
1. If I'm bored, I would rp a sort of stick up or such where the Frankenstein civilian would walk past me, I would rp anger and shoot. Frankenstein Cops chase me like SA single player and end of rp.

2. Till there are enough players, this may keep some blokes like me on server. Otherwise there is nothing to do. I may rp running them over too. Get wanted, and I have something to do.

So I'm not expecting much scripting but I don't really know how much effort is needed for the above.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 11, 2022, 07:29:03 pm
Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?
I think I've seen CEF and Lua plugins for SA-MP, so you can theoretically combine all of that into some kind of 0.3.7 DL-based Frankenstein MTA clone. Not sure why'd you want that, though. :neutral2:


Actually, all I was suggesting was to have the Frankensteins walk and die when they are shot or run over.

Here is why that came up:
1. If I'm bored, I would rp a sort of stick up or such where the Frankenstein civilian would walk past me, I would rp anger and shoot. Frankenstein Cops chase me like SA single player and end of rp.

2. Till there are enough players, this may keep some blokes like me on server. Otherwise there is nothing to do. I may rp running them over too. Get wanted, and I have something to do.

So I'm not expecting much scripting but I don't really know how much effort is needed for the above.

Nice seeing you stop by again, Cutt3r! I have to be brutally honest but...What would the difference be between doing that and just having an instance of Single Player going on while you're IG and waiting for others to join? I mean, shit...What was the MTA motto again?  :lol:

(On a side, offtopic note: Most of us have smartphones of some sort, I really recommend getting GTA Chinatown Wars, great time filler while waiting for shit to happen in other games)
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 12, 2022, 04:33:10 am
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 12, 2022, 05:47:57 am

Nice seeing you stop by again, Cutt3r! I have to be brutally honest but...What would the difference be between doing that and just having an instance of Single Player going on while you're IG and waiting for others to join? I mean, shit...What was the MTA motto again?  :lol:

(On a side, offtopic note: Most of us have smartphones of some sort, I really recommend getting GTA Chinatown Wars, great time filler while waiting for shit to happen in other games)

Hi Sir!
I have more than just "stopped by". I think I'm gonna be around a while!  All depends on my work and baby duties but as she is almost 2, things should become more stable :D

Here is the reason I proposed this and not using the single player version - I can engage other players who join if I'm in argo with the bots rather than missing out. The other day, I afked and missed a chance to engage with krutoi_corleone. So yes, I felt if this is relatively easy to do, it would help.

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 12, 2022, 11:42:11 am
I believe Badandy and Brian both have positive intentions for this part of the community. I believe the people surrounding them unfortunately do not and are just ineffective and inactive benchwarmers who provide no value. Their opinions brought us to our current state and they will always refuse to acknowledge it. Instead, they will point the finger back at you and blame you for the problem.
Oh this I want to hear some elaboration on.

Please, post your facts or is this one of your attempts to be the center of attention and go crying off somewhere when it doesn't happen?  :hah:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 12, 2022, 02:59:12 pm
I believe Badandy and Brian both have positive intentions for this part of the community. I believe the people surrounding them unfortunately do not and are just ineffective and inactive benchwarmers who provide no value. Their opinions brought us to our current state and they will always refuse to acknowledge it. Instead, they will point the finger back at you and blame you for the problem.
Oh this I want to hear some elaboration on.

Please, post your facts or is this one of your attempts to be the center of attention and go crying off somewhere when it doesn't happen?  :hah:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 12, 2022, 03:05:38 pm
The Carson project was a failure, and not good enough. It does not provide you full accessibility over the entire centre of RP. You expect groups that are mafia based to be in FC, and somehow keep a town like that active? Argo being set over the entire map is what it always was, FC is just a place where role-play of motorcycle clubs, and lowly gangs can take place. If, somehow the Argo playerbase was back up, let's say a 100 players. How are you gonna fit that many people in FC, and let them do their projects if the base of the server is FC instead of LS?
"Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG."
You're wrong. You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community, of-course you need to focus on role-play but role-play was never the only primary reason for people to stay. It was fucking around with their friends, interacting with other groups, TDM, police pursuits etc. Argo was never a heavy-RP server that solely focuses on RP, and RP only and will have many players like a certain heavy RP server focusing on a county. FC isn't even a county, it's a small town. Argonath was never based off on that, I've been in this community since 2013, I never saw that happen.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Sawyer on May 12, 2022, 05:27:04 pm
You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community
While I'm not 100% with you with the rest of the content, Hammer, this quote in itself is spot on.

I've proposed this in the past but I am going spit it out once more. We had to either switch states every 5-6 months or simply find another alternatives of keeping the players interested. The "small town" project, as people call it, is indeed fun, but limits the player in terms of things to do other than "RPing".

We all know SAMP as a platform is a virtual world of people wanting to gain status, being able to consistently grow financially as well as you also nicely put it, Hammer, be able to fuck around when you have nothing to do of use in-game.

In short, I still do respect the idea of Fort Carson being the center of attention for the server to bring the entire playerbase together, but it was a matter of time until Fort Carson itself bores you to death, and eventually /q or even not join the server at all in order to repeat the same routine.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Chase on May 12, 2022, 06:39:27 pm
A community will only thrive when you have an active team of people including owners set on the same mission.
Do you really want the owners to come back? Do you remember what happened the few times they appeared? Just sayin', be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 12, 2022, 06:51:38 pm
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Brian on May 12, 2022, 07:09:02 pm
I’m calling for owners, not THE owners. This could be anyone - I honestly think that Wdoyle would be best fit. A ship without a captain or a rudder will only continue sinking.

I am genuinely curious on why/ how adding a new owner will improve the community.
Say we were to make Wdoyle the owner, what will change that'll benefit the community, how will the hierarchy change, how will it benefit leadership.

What will a change in title from "community leader" to "owner" do to change things. Wouldn't it be better to have a role where you can actually switch people out when the time comes rather than have people yet again fill a "dictator" style role where one person can make decisions even if the entire community is against it?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 12, 2022, 07:58:30 pm
In the past two weeks, I have been in contact with all three community leaders. I would say they aren't absent. I have never talked to the owners, maybe once a decade ago.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 12, 2022, 09:23:15 pm
A community will only thrive when you have an active team of people including owners set on the same mission.
Do you really want the owners to come back? Do you remember what happened the few times they appeared? Just sayin', be careful what you wish for.

I’m calling for owners, not THE owners. This could be anyone - I honestly think that Wdoyle would be best fit. A ship without a captain or a rudder will only continue sinking.
That would change nothing.

Community Leaders can already do almost anything that the community needs. Should something happen, such as forums going down in a way we can't fix, we have a pretty fast line of communication to owners to get things fixed.

As for claims that there's no leaders, I don't know if you stuck your head up your own ass so deep you can't see, but we're quite active. We just don't go around the forums shouting about every group chat we've got going on and how we get ignored while being talked to :hah:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 12, 2022, 10:36:26 pm
Or 1 account = multiple characters, that's also common. Login/acc name doesn't have to match character name.
Yeah, I don't see how "different skin = different character" makes sense either. Nobody's got the time to keep track of somebody else's skins.

They have not been involved in any matter whatsoever since RS5 from my standpoint.
And we know what how well things have been going without them.

If you want something done right, then you should do it yourself.
So you are suggesting a coup d'etat? :D

Not when I initially joined. Groups got along, people had fun. It wasn't as toxic and aggressive as it was the last few years of activity.
I think it may not be an Argonath problem, but a worldwide problem, because the pAnDeMiC, etc.

Do you remember what happened the few times they appeared? Just sayin', be careful what you wish for.
What happened? Couple of people who forgot whose place this is ended up having their ass handed to them? (This is an assumption of what could've happened, not an opinion of it. I'm genuinely asking.)

Do you really want the owners to come back?
Yes. Stop shaking, friend.

Why wouldn't you want to see the return of 2 leaders, who led this place when it came to life, and then successfully kept it alive, while they were around?

Who has the experience of successfully running a popular server? Given the turnover inside SA-MP HQ, there's nobody in it who was in HQ when the server was at its most successful, pre-RS5, and was as close as to possible to what made Argonath Argonath (and not some wannabe-RLRP knockoff that imploded).

What will a change in title from "community leader" to "owner" do to change things. Wouldn't it be better to have a role where you can actually switch people out when the time comes rather than have people yet again fill a "dictator" style role where one person can make decisions even if the entire community is against it?
I suppose if everything was delegated officially, (when this guy is absent, that guy takes over this and this guy takes over that) would improve some people's confidence in what's happening and also help make it look organized (even if it already is).

We just don't go around the forums shouting about every group chat we've got going on and how we get ignored while being talked to :hah:
The forums are still the most public façade of the community, and the fact that some leaders barely post make the place look even more abandoned from an outsider's perspective. Also, the state of the forums itself deserves epithets of the kind the digital paper we're using won't be able to handle. Can't modify my own posts, for example.

Also, let's take a look at the fact that there are four webmasters, three of them are community leaders, and yet it still requires "Sauron"'s intervention—which took a while—for websites to come back online. Delayed response. Access not delegated or not available. Somebody here's mentioned that you're (not you in particular) not using Argonath's host for game server(s), but rather your own. Another instance of access lost or not delegated; doesn't really matter which it is. So, what, trust issues? Is there an iota here of esprit de corps, shared by the owners and the CL/DLs? Unlikely, but it's not that I insist on it being a necessity or a requirement.

Chase has asked a somewhat interesting question. What happens if the owners do become as active as they once were, and there's a complete (or just significant, if not complete) difference in opinions? What happens if your MTA:SA server is finished, you're satisfied, and then you're requested to modify it beyond recognition? Do you have a carte blanche to develop what you want to develop (or is this a "while the cat is away, the mice will play" type of situation?), and if you lose it, will you fight for status quo if contested?



Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 12, 2022, 10:53:43 pm

Chase has asked a somewhat interesting question. What happens if the owners do become as active as they once were, and there's a complete (or just significant, if not complete) difference in opinions? What happens if your MTA:SA server is finished, you're satisfied, and then you're requested to modify it beyond recognition? Do you have a carte blanche to develop what you want to develop (or is this a "while the cat is away, the mice will play" type of situation?), and if you lose it, will you fight for status quo if contested?

If the owners would come back and do that. I will say no. The server will be created for players who enjoy San Andreas and I'll be the main developer who will try to do that. The MTA Server is also going to be hosted under the same host used for SAMP at the moment which is a host managed by Brian, Chase, and I. Owners can always give input but I will not be told exactly what to do and how high to jump.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 12, 2022, 11:36:08 pm
If the owners would come back and do that. I will say no. The server will be created for players who enjoy San Andreas and I'll be the main developer who will try to do that. The MTA Server is also going to be hosted under the same host used for SAMP at the moment which is a host managed by Brian, Chase, and I. Owners can always give input but I will not be told exactly what to do and how high to jump.
They'll give input, you'll say "no," they'll insist, and what do you then? Leave? Take the script and fly away?

"Hope for the best, plan for the worst." I was in a situation like that once, and I fought, but I also came to power as a result of a coup and had more than nothing in my pocket (unlike Baron Tesla von Helvetica of Apple, Inc. several posts above), and knew where and how to stand my ground. I can't make judgment on it in retrospect, because I barely have any memories of that conflict. It was more like two friends playing chess, and not a clash of ideologies — unlike what could be here.

Calculated risk, informed decisions, etc. We create the future we deserve. :gand:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 12, 2022, 11:59:54 pm
The forums are still the most public façade of the community, and the fact that some leaders barely post make the place look even more abandoned from an outsider's perspective. Also, the state of the forums itself deserves epithets of the kind the digital paper we're using won't be able to handle. Can't modify my own posts, for example.
We do participate in conversation when there's something worthwhile to say or someone needs to be corrected when they talk out of their ass. The forums have been god awful for a long time and we know that, it's one of the things we can't just go and change as community leaders. Owners want some things a certain way.
As for editing your own posts, you should be able to as far as I know. We'll take a look.

Also, let's take a look at the fact that there are four webmasters, three of them are community leaders, and yet it still requires "Sauron"'s intervention—which took a while—for websites to come back online. Delayed response. Access not delegated or not available. Somebody here's mentioned that you're (not you in particular) not using Argonath's host for game server(s), but rather your own. Another instance of access lost or not delegated; doesn't really matter which it is. So, what, trust issues? Is there an iota here of esprit de corps, shared by the owners and the CL/DLs? Unlikely, but it's not that I insist on it being a necessity or a requirement.
I'm only webmaster because they have rights that leaders do not despite leaders being higher rank.. don't ask me why :D

The forums going down was the VM going down, which we can not fix. That requires Sauron and it was a quick response from Sauron while being hospitalized.
Some servers are hosted outside of Argonath's hosting, yes. One reason is we have more control over the host, including it's performance capabilities, storage, operating system etc. With Argonath hosting we would need to go through Sauron for that, and it is unnecessary step. When owners returned they had no issue with servers being hosted outside of Argonath.

Chase has asked a somewhat interesting question. What happens if the owners do become as active as they once were, and there's a complete (or just significant, if not complete) difference in opinions? What happens if your MTA:SA server is finished, you're satisfied, and then you're requested to modify it beyond recognition? Do you have a carte blanche to develop what you want to develop (or is this a "while the cat is away, the mice will play" type of situation?), and if you lose it, will you fight for status quo if contested?
Personally, I've always been able to have a dialog with the owners and come to compromises if things are seen differently and I've also fully went against what they've said and ultimately proven myself to be right, case in point when they refused to take VC:MP back to Argonath's hosting in 2012 so we got our own hosting solution and it's been working wonderfully for 10 years for us.

As for requested to modifying a server that we're happy with, probably ain't gonna happen. I'm fairly sure people would rather resign than go against what they've created. There's no winners if it comes to a standoff, I prefer having an open and honest conversation about the realities of the situation.

Do remember that developers are not paid to do their job, they are free to quit whenever and for whatever reason they wish. The work they've done will remain with Argonath. Same goes for server and community leaders.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 13, 2022, 02:06:33 am
Ron and Gandalf made this community. They ran it for more than 10 years (Gandalf especially) before we began seeing less of them. We do not really know why they are inactive. I am of the firm view that we should not make pseudo derogatory statements regarding their inactivity. It's like judging someone who is not represented and could not make it to court.

Let's please focus our time on MTASA. I am looking forward to it. Any little time I have, I spend in-game role-playing by myself on SAMP in the hope that someone will join, eventually. Which brings me back to my idea from a couple of days ago - can we all meet up for just one hour at the start of each month? First Friday or Saturday night?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 13, 2022, 02:27:44 am
Another question- how much needs to be paid for having the samp server on the hosted tab?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kowalski. on May 13, 2022, 03:16:22 am
SA:MP isn't worth it anymore, to be quite frank. I can't imagine many people would want to join even for a planned hour.

In my opinion, the best chances Argo has are on MTA:SA, if you want to see people interested in joining.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 13, 2022, 03:32:10 am
SA:MP isn't worth it anymore, to be quite frank. I can't imagine many people would want to join even for a planned hour.

In my opinion, the best chances Argo has are on MTA:SA, if you want to see people interested in joining.

Would SAMP be worth it if people joined? From my quick Google search, hosted tab prices are between 30 and 35 euro. I can spend that for 6 months, till the Mta sa server comes up.

I just need help with choosing the right one. Is this a good idea?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 13, 2022, 04:39:58 am
SA:MP isn't worth it anymore, to be quite frank. I can't imagine many people would want to join even for a planned hour.

In my opinion, the best chances Argo has are on MTA:SA, if you want to see people interested in joining.

Would SAMP be worth it if people joined? From my quick Google search, hosted tab prices are between 30 and 35 euro. I can spend that for 6 months, till the Mta sa server comes up.

I just need help with choosing the right one. Is this a good idea?

There is no doubt that we are going to be moving to MTA SA. In the mean time, I'm personally not against players playing on SAMP and I'm not here to tell Cutt3r how to spend his money. I'm unsure what the process is to get on hosted but if you think that would help, I don't see why not. Though Brian may have to comment on that before proceeding.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: KenAdams on May 13, 2022, 05:14:02 am
You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community
While I'm not 100% with you with the rest of the content, Hammer, this quote in itself is spot on.

I've proposed this in the past but I am going spit it out once more. We had to either switch states every 5-6 months or simply find another alternatives of keeping the players interested. The "small town" project, as people call it, is indeed fun, but limits the player in terms of things to do other than "RPing".

We all know SAMP as a platform is a virtual world of people wanting to gain status, being able to consistently grow financially as well as you also nicely put it, Hammer, be able to fuck around when you have nothing to do of use in-game.

In short, I still do respect the idea of Fort Carson being the center of attention for the server to bring the entire playerbase together, but it was a matter of time until Fort Carson itself bores you to death, and eventually /q or even not join the server at all in order to repeat the same routine.

Personally, I enjoyed being in Fort Carson, specially during the elections.. Fun times.. Interviewing people, candidates, blowing up SanTV office, etc.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 13, 2022, 08:23:48 am
We do participate in conversation when there's something worthwhile to say or someone needs to be corrected when they talk out of their ass. The forums have been god awful for a long time and we know that, it's one of the things we can't just go and change as community leaders. Owners want some things a certain way.
As for editing your own posts, you should be able to as far as I know. We'll take a look.

I'm only webmaster because they have rights that leaders do not despite leaders being higher rank.. don't ask me why

The forums going down was the VM going down, which we can not fix. That requires Sauron and it was a quick response from Sauron while being hospitalized.
Some servers are hosted outside of Argonath's hosting, yes. One reason is we have more control over the host, including it's performance capabilities, storage, operating system etc. With Argonath hosting we would need to go through Sauron for that, and it is unnecessary step. When owners returned they had no issue with servers being hosted outside of Argonath.

Personally, I've always been able to have a dialog with the owners and come to compromises if things are seen differently and I've also fully went against what they've said and ultimately proven myself to be right, case in point when they refused to take VC:MP back to Argonath's hosting in 2012 so we got our own hosting solution and it's been working wonderfully for 10 years for us.

As for requested to modifying a server that we're happy with, probably ain't gonna happen. I'm fairly sure people would rather resign than go against what they've created. There's no winners if it comes to a standoff, I prefer having an open and honest conversation about the realities of the situation.
Well, if this is how things are (quite pragmatic, I think), then I do agree with you that declaring somebody an "owner" changes nothing. I guess it could help if there were more people with the experience of promoting a server, but they don't need to have an owner's rank for that.

The forums
IIRC, the forums that were on mtasa.argonathrpg.com were made by cloning these here on argonathrpg.eu, and then all the non-MTA:SA boards were deleted (so that we could keep our content that was here), and member accounts ofc deleted also, some settings were set to default, new permissions were made, and it came back to life and started working properly, search was working, etc.

There are accounts made in 2006 that haven't logged in since 2006. That's a lot of useless baggage accumulated over the years. You could make another clone, and see what could be done to fix it through trial & error.

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 13, 2022, 11:33:36 am
The Carson project was a failure, and not good enough. It does not provide you full accessibility over the entire centre of RP. You expect groups that are mafia based to be in FC, and somehow keep a town like that active? Argo being set over the entire map is what it always was, FC is just a place where role-play of motorcycle clubs, and lowly gangs can take place. If, somehow the Argo playerbase was back up, let's say a 100 players. How are you gonna fit that many people in FC, and let them do their projects if the base of the server is FC instead of LS?
"Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG."
You're wrong. You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community, of-course you need to focus on role-play but role-play was never the only primary reason for people to stay. It was fucking around with their friends, interacting with other groups, TDM, police pursuits etc. Argo was never a heavy-RP server that solely focuses on RP, and RP only and will have many players like a certain heavy RP server focusing on a county. FC isn't even a county, it's a small town. Argonath was never based off on that, I've been in this community since 2013, I never saw that happen.

You may not know this as you weren't around when we first moved there, but in 2015 there was no more than 2 or 3 people roleplaying there, Aksel Svensson RPing as a mayor in what now is Town Hall.
"Fucking around with friends, interacting with other groups, cophunting and TDM" were the reasons a handful of players were sick of hanging around LS and SF, so some of us relocated to Fort Carson. Mind you, back then we only had 3 or 4 active houses and 2/3 businesses in the entire area. Those of us who moved there were satisfied enough with what we had scriptwise - /l, /s, /me. After all, we were and most of us still are, here for the roleplay. Slowly but steadily we started adding more and more to the town, with the support of many players and staff.
Now a few years ago, activity started dropping. The "Fucking around with friends, interacting with other groups, cophunting and TDM" players mostly left for other servers or were banned from the community. People had no incentive to stick around LS or SF, but we still kept going in Carson. Shortly after a few events and scenarios, HQ decided to step in and take over this player lead initiative, making it into the official server hub. Needless to say, things went downhill from there  :lol:
Mafia groups worked perfectly, as back in 2010 Ancelotti had an HQ in Carson, Gvardia were involved during elections, even Trapani operated in the area for a while. Take a look at the Singleplayer campaign, let me know where the San Fierro and Los Santos mob are. If we're to talk about realism, Las Venturas is the only city/area which had a mafia presence in it's real life counterpart. 

Ever since we started it in 2015 we've had all sorts of groups and factions come by and interact in one way or another. We chased off DMers and people who did not have a RP attitude. We were not upset with Argonath or the owners, we had a problem with the mindset of certain groups of players, so we did the only logical thing - build an alternative.
Now all due respect, but before you deem something a failure, I'd expect you to atleast have tried it out. And for the love of God, I had to go through pages and pages of your forum posts, but I still have no fucking clue who you are and if, when and where did you show up. But instead of criticizing and throwing shit on the forums, just get IG and do what you want to do. Like I said before - if you want something done right, you should do it yourself. That's how Argo was built, but we prefer to stay part of the community instead of splitting off  :)


Would SAMP be worth it if people joined? From my quick Google search, hosted tab prices are between 30 and 35 euro. I can spend that for 6 months, till the Mta sa server comes up.

I just need help with choosing the right one. Is this a good idea?

As someone who did pay for the hosted tab for a while, I can assure you it is not worth it. Before the client died out, SA:MP had versions 0.3dl and 0.3.7. Most if not all the bigger servers moved on to 0.3dl, which I'm not able to find on https://www.sa-mp.com/. Now where the hosted tab comes in is that it only works for people who have version 0.3.7. Long-time SAMP veterans would not see us on the Hosted tab and lets be real - there are no new players in SAMP. It's a dead client. Kids nowadays move on to V, whether it's FiveM or Rage. Even if we magically had someone randomly join our server for the first time, never hearing about Argo before, I'm afraid there's nothing that's going to get them to stay. Personally last year I've met around 3 or 4 new players, showed them around, they joined the server for a few days in a row - only to disappear and never show up again. So long story short, I'd keep my money if I were you.

As for MTA, I am interested to see how it goes, but how long would it take realistically before we can play on an Argo server there? When is work going to start and are we going to get regular updates?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 13, 2022, 12:05:03 pm
You may not know this as you weren't around when we first moved there, but in 2015 there was no more than 2 or 3 people roleplaying there, Aksel Svensson RPing as a mayor in what now is Town Hall.
"Fucking around with friends, interacting with other groups, cophunting and TDM" were the reasons a handful of players were sick of hanging around LS and SF, so some of us relocated to Fort Carson. Mind you, back then we only had 3 or 4 active houses and 2/3 businesses in the entire area. Those of us who moved there were satisfied enough with what we had scriptwise - /l, /s, /me. After all, we were and most of us still are, here for the roleplay. Slowly but steadily we started adding more and more to the town, with the support of many players and staff.
Now a few years ago, activity started dropping. The "Fucking around with friends, interacting with other groups, cophunting and TDM" players mostly left for other servers or were banned from the community. People had no incentive to stick around LS or SF, but we still kept going in Carson. Shortly after a few events and scenarios, HQ decided to step in and take over this player lead initiative, making it into the official server hub. Needless to say, things went downhill from there  :lol:
Mafia groups worked perfectly, as back in 2010 Ancelotti had an HQ in Carson, Gvardia were involved during elections, even Trapani operated in the area for a while. Take a look at the Singleplayer campaign, let me know where the San Fierro and Los Santos mob are. If we're to talk about realism, Las Venturas is the only city/area which had a mafia presence in it's real life counterpart. 

Ever since we started it in 2015 we've had all sorts of groups and factions come by and interact in one way or another. We chased off DMers and people who did not have a RP attitude. We were not upset with Argonath or the owners, we had a problem with the mindset of certain groups of players, so we did the only logical thing - build an alternative.
Now all due respect, but before you deem something a failure, I'd expect you to atleast have tried it out. And for the love of God, I had to go through pages and pages of your forum posts, but I still have no fucking clue who you are and if, when and where did you show up. But instead of criticizing and throwing shit on the forums, just get IG and do what you want to do. Like I said before - if you want something done right, you should do it yourself. That's how Argo was built, but we prefer to stay part of the community instead of splitting off  :)

When I think about it, it sounds like something that could fit well into RedM, the "FiveM" for RDR2.

That setting would fit Argonath's style of RP (and DM disguised as RP :D).
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Brian on May 13, 2022, 11:22:10 pm
@Mario
Sorry for the permission edit issue, I recently changed something for a certain board but it decided to change the permission for the entire forums, you should be able to edit your post again.

As for the forums, I've been a webmaster here for almost 10 years now and I've barely gotten any access to actually manage or maintain the forums (until recently but even that access is limited in regards to actually ensuring we can provide web uptime)
If the VM or host goes down only the owners have the ability to turn it back on, there's been a couple people that have had access to do so over the years but the owners tend to want to keep access to themselves only. It's the same with the game VMs which is why some of us have decided to arrange our own hosting so that we can ensure uptime for our players (and actually restart, update and maintain the VMs)

As for the owners and their opinion on things, I'd highly recommend reading through the "a dialogue with the owners (https://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=33411.625)" topic of when they reappeared for a while a year and a half ago. CLs tried to take some of the conversations publicly so the community is more aware of things are ran and going in the back-end, as well as get the owners opinions, as well as ours. And just as a FYI, we've not seen or heard from them since then. (outside of us reaching out to them to resolve some VM issues)
They've also shared that they no longer have any personal interest in SAMP and that we are free to make the changes we feel would be good for the server.

And another interesting note, while you are correct in saying that the owners created this community, and did run a successful server for a while, that was almost 10 years ago. The forum topic I linked was the first time myself and many people saw Aragorn. And for many of the current players, it was also their first time seeing Gandalf. While I'll always have respect for them for providing us with this community, and providing us with hosting. For many people the owners are just people filling a role, they're not aware of what kind of people they are or what their vision is, and we're also to remember that vision was made in/ around 2006.
And while I've no plans or interest in a coup d'état, I do see parts of Argonath fall in line with a thought experiment called "ship of Theseus", almost everything you see or play on within modern Argonath was done by other people or was guided by people that aren't the owners.

@Cutt3r

I also have to agree with TheGreasyChopper in regards to the hosted tab, I personally have not had any good experiences with it, especially in more recent years it tends to cause a lot of people that have ill intentions to join the server and mess around. And of those that are just looking for a server to play on, a majority sticks around for under 30 minutes or do not have the ability (or lack of interest) to try and communicate/ play with other players.
The way the hosted tab system was made also makes it a scam (in my opinion) as its very limited on who can sell/ assign hosted tab slots and they upcharge significantly for what you actually get out of it.
If you do want to help out monetarily we've been discussing some future plans internally that I'd be more than happy to inform you about to see if any of that is of any interest to you.


Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 14, 2022, 01:36:37 am
The Carson project was a failure, and not good enough. It does not provide you full accessibility over the entire centre of RP. You expect groups that are mafia based to be in FC, and somehow keep a town like that active? Argo being set over the entire map is what it always was, FC is just a place where role-play of motorcycle clubs, and lowly gangs can take place. If, somehow the Argo playerbase was back up, let's say a 100 players. How are you gonna fit that many people in FC, and let them do their projects if the base of the server is FC instead of LS?
"Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG."
You're wrong. You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community, of-course you need to focus on role-play but role-play was never the only primary reason for people to stay. It was fucking around with their friends, interacting with other groups, TDM, police pursuits etc. Argo was never a heavy-RP server that solely focuses on RP, and RP only and will have many players like a certain heavy RP server focusing on a county. FC isn't even a county, it's a small town. Argonath was never based off on that, I've been in this community since 2013, I never saw that happen.

You may not know this as you weren't around when we first moved there, but in 2015 there was no more than 2 or 3 people roleplaying there, Aksel Svensson RPing as a mayor in what now is Town Hall.
"Fucking around with friends, interacting with other groups, cophunting and TDM" were the reasons a handful of players were sick of hanging around LS and SF, so some of us relocated to Fort Carson. Mind you, back then we only had 3 or 4 active houses and 2/3 businesses in the entire area. Those of us who moved there were satisfied enough with what we had scriptwise - /l, /s, /me. After all, we were and most of us still are, here for the roleplay. Slowly but steadily we started adding more and more to the town, with the support of many players and staff.
Now a few years ago, activity started dropping. The "Fucking around with friends, interacting with other groups, cophunting and TDM" players mostly left for other servers or were banned from the community. People had no incentive to stick around LS or SF, but we still kept going in Carson. Shortly after a few events and scenarios, HQ decided to step in and take over this player lead initiative, making it into the official server hub. Needless to say, things went downhill from there  :lol:
Mafia groups worked perfectly, as back in 2010 Ancelotti had an HQ in Carson, Gvardia were involved during elections, even Trapani operated in the area for a while. Take a look at the Singleplayer campaign, let me know where the San Fierro and Los Santos mob are. If we're to talk about realism, Las Venturas is the only city/area which had a mafia presence in it's real life counterpart. 

Ever since we started it in 2015 we've had all sorts of groups and factions come by and interact in one way or another. We chased off DMers and people who did not have a RP attitude. We were not upset with Argonath or the owners, we had a problem with the mindset of certain groups of players, so we did the only logical thing - build an alternative.
Now all due respect, but before you deem something a failure, I'd expect you to atleast have tried it out. And for the love of God, I had to go through pages and pages of your forum posts, but I still have no fucking clue who you are and if, when and where did you show up. But instead of criticizing and throwing shit on the forums, just get IG and do what you want to do. Like I said before - if you want something done right, you should do it yourself. That's how Argo was built, but we prefer to stay part of the community instead of splitting off  :)

I was never well known as I never interacted with others, however in my time there I was known as Marcus_Corleonesi, Palat, Ricky Trapani, Ricky Soprano, etc. I did try out the Carson project, problem here is, you're getting too defensive. Perhaps rightfully so, since it's your idea. I tried out the FC project, and that's how I gave my judgement. You mentioning FC was a way to get out of that cophunt, Trapani did activities around that area(I lead those), you're right. Thing is though, FC should've never been the permanent change. It opens up the door to a lot of opportunities, but having only operated under one small area closes the door to many other opportunities too. Perhaps, if the centre of focus was the whole of BC instead of just FC, that'd have still worked too. I quit Argo long ago, and I'm gonna be honest, it's a waste of time unless there are atleast a few people active. Being active all alone in-game, hoping for people to show up is dumb. So many people on these forums comment, if those were in game, that's another thing as well.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Khm on May 14, 2022, 02:04:46 am
The Carson project was a failure, and not good enough. It does not provide you full accessibility over the entire centre of RP. You expect groups that are mafia based to be in FC, and somehow keep a town like that active? Argo being set over the entire map is what it always was, FC is just a place where role-play of motorcycle clubs, and lowly gangs can take place. If, somehow the Argo playerbase was back up, let's say a 100 players. How are you gonna fit that many people in FC, and let them do their projects if the base of the server is FC instead of LS?
"Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG."
You're wrong. You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community, of-course you need to focus on role-play but role-play was never the only primary reason for people to stay. It was fucking around with their friends, interacting with other groups, TDM, police pursuits etc. Argo was never a heavy-RP server that solely focuses on RP, and RP only and will have many players like a certain heavy RP server focusing on a county. FC isn't even a county, it's a small town. Argonath was never based off on that, I've been in this community since 2013, I never saw that happen.
This is absolutely wrong.
Fort Carson is originally ran by biker and redneck groups (with Trapani mafia operating there for some time too). The nagging from the inactive "veterans" was ridiculous at that time as they were complaining about the activity that dropped drastically due to mass leaves few years prior to that so HQ decided at that time to jump in with the current active players and fully support their activity therr providing them with what was possible to give at that time, slowly activity started to increase, hell even the hybrid server reset had good results of increasing the player activity and raising the bar in terms of roleplay style.

Slowly we topped 50 players daily at that time and we expanded to nearby towns like blueberry, EQ etc but it was expected that this won't stay as new typical mafia groups that failed to integrate with the concept of living in the desert (realistically mafias don't exist in the desert) kept on appearing with the same old dmish style that solely focuses on kidnapping and killing people as well as growing and stealing weed, with some fights against cops here and there they kept on pushing to bring back the old style of purposely creating issues everyday to have a gun fight and ragequit after losing. To fight that off, civilian activities were heavily pushed, benefits to farming, fishing, player to player sales, restaurants, bars, news stations (SanTV). I even over sold items to businesses in cheap prices that had put me in a loss of money just to promote this style of rp. I intentionally made weapons overpriced in the ammunations there to make people think twice before buying weapons, i ended up earing over a million in a short time period  :) sadly it's not easy to change the mindset of players, especially those that were used to the old style of DM RP that we used to have in RS4.

Other factors like self entitled players calling themselves veterans had their share in intoxicating the environment, ban list is currently full of them namely Kikita, Waka, Lincoln, Zlatan Kazuki Pedro Bogomil Magzin and the list doesn't fucking end, most were well known players that just pop in to cause havoc and go and the moment they leave all players that stayed online when they leave share the same mutual displeasure with such activities but we still stood with a good playerbase that were more like a family, hackers and ban evaders were less of a hassle and even players themselves made hackers into new players with the way they approach them.. until the massive ddos attack that took the server offline for 2 months. Honestly at that time I personally gave up, i did not have the leasure of time to repeat the same thing we did again, and even if I'd repeat the same thing, I was not confident that we will reach the same results again so I stepped out of the picture publicly and stayed helping in the back with the technical stuff.

JDC then came alongside Badandy and Chase from the dark corner of backend, community leaders namely Kessu and Brian were in the picture, as well as the staff team which is to me is heavily credited, they helped with what they could although they had much less powers and influence but they were also the players and the players' friends. They succeeded in bringing the server back on its feet and the activity reached to 30 tops with a lot of fun activities that only came from roleplays that made me crawl out of my cave when I had some freetime.

To me they were successful, no matter how negative you want to be but the results speak for themselves, the challenges that the server had over the past years (after the 2015-2016 HQ fuck up that ended with Brian and Bengt retiring and leaving with bad tastes and the followed years of joke leaderships) other servers that faced easier and simpler issues completely shut down but we stayed online just for the sake of playing GTA SA and enjoying a good time with friends. You would be insulting and discrediting players like Greasy, Tom Evans and Adams, KJones, Terro, Mike Collin, JWick, Mircea, Arthur Kings, Mac, Serban, Megamidget, Stalker, Kostas, Aky, Hubert, Sierra, Gruia, Meeses, Leo Martinez, the whole staff team and the list goes on and thankfully is longer than the troublemakers list, you would be insulting these people's efforts and success if you call it a failure.

In ny opinion we should be proud and happy of the experiences that we had together no matter the differences we have towards eachother, we should remember these good times instead of trying to find other excuses for the drop of activity or even saying something as lame as RS4 was better, something most people forgot or don't know during the last days of RS4 the server was nearly empty, with activity of 40 players daily 80% of them being afk and the other 20% fighting eachother, so the decrease of activity dates back to 2013. People stopped playing because they are no longer interested and have other priorities there's no other reason or excuse, why they lost interest in the first place you say?  Well it's human nature to want change and to want to find the next fun thing to waste time on.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 14, 2022, 08:33:11 am
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Sawyer on May 14, 2022, 11:28:57 am
Just a proposal - how about a “Fort Carson”-like approach with the areas being switched out every couple of months or so. Go from Fort Carson to Montgomery/Bayside. Localize it to a single area and perhaps limit that other areas by intentionally closing borders or even turning off access to government properties.
This is a must imo.

Appoint the appropriate people that are willing to work on that specific project to take some weight off JDC's shoulders. Nothing can really go worse than the current state in my eyes.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 14, 2022, 01:56:18 pm
The Carson project was a failure, and not good enough. It does not provide you full accessibility over the entire centre of RP. You expect groups that are mafia based to be in FC, and somehow keep a town like that active? Argo being set over the entire map is what it always was, FC is just a place where role-play of motorcycle clubs, and lowly gangs can take place. If, somehow the Argo playerbase was back up, let's say a 100 players. How are you gonna fit that many people in FC, and let them do their projects if the base of the server is FC instead of LS?
"Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG."
You're wrong. You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community, of-course you need to focus on role-play but role-play was never the only primary reason for people to stay. It was fucking around with their friends, interacting with other groups, TDM, police pursuits etc. Argo was never a heavy-RP server that solely focuses on RP, and RP only and will have many players like a certain heavy RP server focusing on a county. FC isn't even a county, it's a small town. Argonath was never based off on that, I've been in this community since 2013, I never saw that happen.
This is absolutely wrong.
Fort Carson is originally ran by biker and redneck groups (with Trapani mafia operating there for some time too).


Trapani was active there, yes but only for a short period of time as it's unrealistic as you mentioned above for mafias to exist. I'm not calling anyone's efforts, ideas, etc. a failure. I'm in no place to do that, I've loved Argonath. This server, the nostalgia it brings, it's something else. Having it back active, it'd be something close to a dream coming true. I've never blamed any HQ member, staff-team, etc. even if it was a joke of a leadership. The one guy I've always had an agenda against was Andeey, he was bullshit. That's the only guy I've hated in my period of time in Argonath.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 14, 2022, 03:41:48 pm
 To elaborate on why small town(regardless of Carson or Angel Pine or Palomino) is the only logical setting for our current state - the amount of active people. We all know eachother one way or another, forums, discord, IG, common groups. While Argonath previously had hundreds of active players, currently I doubt we have even 50ish active members across the community(forums, discord, different servers). Focusing on a big city like LS, LV or SF gives us a large area. Some of us prefer hanging out in Rodeo, while the others would hang out at GS9, which gives no opportunities for interactions and common activities.

(Gonna go offtopic related to MTA:SA, it was mostly focused in San Fierro, which created an awesome atmosphere, and it worked out. That didn't stop some jobs and missions leading you to Angel Pine or Bayside, it was awesome. I would very much like to state that focusing on SF once again might be one of my conditions on hopping on the MTA:SA train whenever it arrives  :lol: )

 Closing down in a small town gives us all needed facilities(town hall, PD, FD, Hospital, Gas Station) close to eachother, and close to available businesses, furthermore increasing the chances of bumping into someone else while doing your own stuff. I cannot think of a feature, aside from maybe money laundry, that is not present in Carson or Bone County in one way or another. Now a few of you asked "Why not make it Bone County instead of just Carson?", well this just further shows your ignorance on the topic. We call it the Carson Project, simply because that's our hub - that's where things happen. In reality, we had Trapani up at Las Payasadas, we've had numerous groups take up at the Big Ear, AoD have mostly operated out of the Abandoned Airport. On the other hand, noone ever forced you to stay in Carson, no businesses were sold off or deactivated for not being in Carson. FLA had a period of awesome activity IG, most of it in Flint. We just highlight the hub by focusing on Carson. The same thing was also attempted in Angel Pine for a brief time, and people were pretty positive about it.

 Before you suggest any ideas that will be the savior of SAMP, consider that it should be an improvement of what we currently have, not something brand new. That never helps. Improve on what we already have, do not start anew. A good example, that sadly was only on the planning table, was the idea of Bayside becoming a resort(I believe Arthur was the face of that idea). We supported that idea as much as we could, that would've given us another hub to expand to and perhaps switch focus on weekends(to address that one idea of switching focuses around), as we had some increasing numbers of players. What we all expect here is for HQ to dictate what you should do. STOP THAT. If your idea requires approvals and support, re-think it. Suggest things that you can hop In Game and start doing. That is why I opposed any walls and barricades around Carson. But let things evolve naturally, join in and expand on the COMMUNITY.

 Now I would like to return to the main post in hopes of steering things back in the initial topic. Some of us hop in IG every now and then, go ahead and join us, start working on one of those listed groups/people that we need. We're a small town in Carson, we do not need a SWAT Team, Detective Division and FBI HQ. We currently need a Sheriff to call the shots for PD and 2-5 deputies to enforce the law. Think of roles that would benefit and work out in a small group of people. And for the love of God, read up on how the American LCN operates. "A mafia doesn't work well in a small town" is the biggest pile of shit I've recently heard. Read up on the history of Las Vegas, it was the Mafia that turned it from a town smaller than Carson to what it is today. You can do the same. We saw no issues while working on the brief Ancelotti revival, Gvardia had no issues coming out and RPing with us throughout the years. Perhaps the location isn't the reason why your "mafia" isn't working out :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 15, 2022, 05:20:40 am
Change starts with us. Individually.

We are at a stage where we are literally starting afresh. One change we need to make is to forgive old friends who had multiple concussions and had a vocal opinion which was seen as wrong.

Concussions heal. People change, over time. The other day, one of those mentioned by Khm above logged in, created no trouble. He just spoke, based on my questions. No toxicity. Maybe he matured over time. We engaged each other very respectfully.

We are a dysfunctional family. Even in RL we have people who we wish didn't exist. Yet, they are integral to the family, we forgive them and move on. Argo is the family online for some of us, that's why we are still here and some of us come back to say hello once in a while.

Can we find it in ourselves to review community bans when the time comes?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Huntsman on May 15, 2022, 01:01:18 pm
A lot of what is suggested is patchwork. Things that were tried to an extent before, and did not work. I can say on my own view: localising the server into one of the smaller towns would not make me come back. would rather put me off from joining instead.

I think that in general for Argonath to be revived there has to be a change in ownership. New, prominent, and progressive leaders need to rise up. Leaders, and their presence, was in part what kept the SAMP server active for all these years. New leaders who'd give a sense of direction, and hope for the players.

But the biggest factor is us - we just need to shut up and get back to playing. We can talk what needs to be done until we turn blue but the fact is that no-one is willing to do shit on their part. Just get into the server, just play. I think the issue here is that most people just don't want to play anymore. It's a decade old game almost. It has gotten boring. Most of us no-lifed the shit out of it in our teen years. It feel antiquated by now.

I still insist that Argonath moving on to GTA V and focusing all of its efforts and resources there is the way forward. It's new, it's flexible, it has an active playerbase. If we all would just stick to playing one, most recent server instead, we could then have some hope of revival. But this won't happen, because people are not willing to lose the positions they hold in the antiquated games :).

Sorry, but my outlook does remain grim.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 15, 2022, 02:07:38 pm
you should be able to edit your post again.
Thanks, it works again.

If the VM or host goes down only the owners have the ability to turn it back on, there's been a couple people that have had access to do so over the years but the owners tend to want to keep access to themselves only.
Yeah, there was a thing like that, AFAIK, but it stopped working after a while.

They've also shared that they no longer have any personal interest in SAMP
Yeah, that one is kind of easy to see.

and that we are free to make the changes we feel would be good for the server.
Understandable, given the above.

And another interesting note, while you are correct in saying that the owners created this community, and did run a successful server for a while, that was almost 10 years ago. The forum topic I linked was the first time myself and many people saw Aragorn. And for many of the current players, it was also their first time seeing Gandalf. While I'll always have respect for them for providing us with this community, and providing us with hosting. For many people the owners are just people filling a role,
The more players there are, the more conflicts there are. When the server was popular, and not the complete opposite, you could rely on the owners to be fair arbitrators, and even though you wouldn't always get what you want, most conflicts were resolved amicably. Of course, this is not a particularly desired commodity right now, since everything "shrunk."

The understanding of when and where to support RP-makers directly or indirectly and how – still not developed here to the extent of that time. If a pseudorealistic economy ("wE dOn'T sPaWn aNy MoNeY"), with its pseudorealism unfitting the rest of the server, gets in the way of RP, that's a gameover. Yet many "experts" claimed the financial system of RS4 was broken, completely ignoring that it allowed to RP things which were never RP'ed after RS4.

they're not aware of what kind of people they are or what their vision is, and we're also to remember that vision was made in/ around 2006.
After a couple of highly enlightened Argonath patriots started running around with that 2006 topic (highly outdated and completely irrelevant) as if it were the holy gospel, it became an inside joke. That's all it is and all it should be in 2022.

And while I've no plans or interest in a coup d'état,
...or the ability – would declaring oneself the owner give legal possession of anything or provide access to it?

I do see parts of Argonath fall in line with a thought experiment called "ship of Theseus", almost everything you see or play on within modern Argonath was done by other people or was guided by people that aren't the owners.
I assume that you do not include HQ in its entirety as part of the ship. If you do include it, then some parts are missing and were not replaced. If you do not include the crew, so to speak, it seems an incomplete comparison.

Slowly we topped 50 players daily
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

In ny opinion we should be proud and happy of the experiences that we had together no matter the differences we have towards eachother, we should remember these good times
I agree, the ship—whether it was a ship of Theseus or not—has sailed, and it is time to move forward.

or even saying something as lame as RS4 was better,
You can compare things to RS4, but you need to remember it's an unfair comparison when you're comparing present-day scripts to some old creation that hasn't been worked on for a decade or so.

Focusing on a big city like LS, LV or SF gives us a large area. Some of us prefer hanging out in Rodeo, while the others would hang out at GS9, which gives no opportunities for interactions and common activities.
It doesn't have to be a small town, but it doesn't have to be a complete city either. You could focus on any specific area of LS, LV or SF, who's stopping you?

(Gonna go offtopic related to MTA:SA, it was mostly focused in San Fierro, which created an awesome atmosphere, and it worked out. That didn't stop some jobs and missions leading you to Angel Pine or Bayside, it was awesome. I would very much like to state that focusing on SF once again might be one of my conditions on hopping on the MTA:SA train whenever it arrives  :lol: )
SF has problematic terrain, all the hills, the angled buildings, etc. Barely any areas suitable for gangs, the less wealthy, the homeless, etc., None of the issues you have in most of LS. As for LV, half of it is the airport, the other half is half-empty. And the non-empty half of the non-airport half is filled with a lot of filler, copypasted content.

3 different teams of R* artists were in charge of LS, SF, and LV. The team that made LS was the most competent one, and the one that made LV the least competent one.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 15, 2022, 03:46:11 pm
I still insist that Argonath moving on to GTA V and focusing all of its efforts and resources there is the way forward. It's new, it's flexible, it has an active playerbase. If we all would just stick to playing one, most recent server instead, we could then have some hope of revival. But this won't happen, because people are not willing to lose the positions they hold in the antiquated games :).

Sorry, but my outlook does remain grim.
What I've been saying ^ for the past few days, focusing on GTA V, and heavily advertising that server + completely focusing on it, with a good leadership would be a step ahead. Whenever the topic is about V:MP, I'm letting SA:MP take a hike because that's the future, and if I was asked to choose between MTA:SA/SA:MP, and V:MP, I'd choose V:MP simply because that's where we're supposed to make new memories.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 15, 2022, 06:27:06 pm
I'm letting SA:MP take a hike because that's the future, and if I was asked to choose between MTA:SA/SA:MP, and V:MP, I'd choose V:MP

Why make a topic on how to bring back SA:MP server then?  :uhm:


A lot of what is suggested is patchwork. Things that were tried to an extent before, and did not work. I can say on my own view: localising the server into one of the smaller towns would not make me come back. would rather put me off from joining instead.

I think that in general for Argonath to be revived there has to be a change in ownership. New, prominent, and progressive leaders need to rise up. Leaders, and their presence, was in part what kept the SAMP server active for all these years. New leaders who'd give a sense of direction, and hope for the players.

But the biggest factor is us - we just need to shut up and get back to playing. We can talk what needs to be done until we turn blue but the fact is that no-one is willing to do shit on their part. Just get into the server, just play. I think the issue here is that most people just don't want to play anymore. It's a decade old game almost. It has gotten boring. Most of us no-lifed the shit out of it in our teen years. It feel antiquated by now.

I still insist that Argonath moving on to GTA V and focusing all of its efforts and resources there is the way forward. It's new, it's flexible, it has an active playerbase. If we all would just stick to playing one, most recent server instead, we could then have some hope of revival. But this won't happen, because people are not willing to lose the positions they hold in the antiquated games :).

Sorry, but my outlook does remain grim.
having abandoned SAMP at around 2017
I know this hurts to hear, as we all have respective sentiments attached to SAMP, or VCMP. But these are done for. I don't think that it's possible to revive a server for games that old.

(https://y.yarn.co/1b9d46b3-fba9-4881-b27d-913c6d641334_text.gif)

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 15, 2022, 08:05:30 pm
I'm letting SA:MP take a hike because that's the future, and if I was asked to choose between MTA:SA/SA:MP, and V:MP, I'd choose V:MP

Why make a topic on how to bring back SA:MP server then?  :uhm:

Dear Mr. Greasy, the only reason why I made a topic on how to bring SA:MP back was because I love the Argo SA:MP community, and I'd like to see it back. However, I'm not gonna let nostalgia cloud my judgement hence why I said, if Argonath was to focus on either V:MP, or SA:MP as it's primary project, I'd want them to focus completely, and fully on V:MP as that's the future, even if it's over SA:MP. SA:MP, or MTA:SA can't be our primary project, hell no. I mean, if you wanna bring this community down and don't wanna establish a good-base in a client that's growing day by day(FiveM), then by all means, go through it and let MTA, or SA:MP be primary.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 15, 2022, 08:08:55 pm
The FiveM server is probably the primary focus of the community and has a team working on it. Personally, my primary focus as a developer is the MTA SA server just because I like it.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 15, 2022, 08:13:23 pm
Dear Mr. Greasy, the only reason why I made a topic on how to bring SA:MP back was because I love the Argo SA:MP community, and I'd like to see it back. However, I'm not gonna let nostalgia cloud my judgement hence why I said, if Argonath was to focus on either V:MP, or SA:MP as it's primary project, I'd want them to focus completely, and fully on V:MP as that's the future, even if it's over SA:MP. SA:MP, or MTA:SA can't be our primary project, hell no. I mean, if you wanna bring this community down and don't wanna establish a good-base in a client that's growing day by day(FiveM), then by all means, go through it and let MTA, or SA:MP be primary.
You say that older games are stale, and FiveM is the future, and yet some of us have already clocked in hundreds, if not thousands of hours in V throughout '13-'22; the game's a decade old next year. Future of what? It's not even close to new and fresh; in fact, some of us are so tired of it already that older games are starting to look more interesting again.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Brian on May 15, 2022, 09:37:48 pm
Change starts with us. Individually.

We are at a stage where we are literally starting afresh. One change we need to make is to forgive old friends who had multiple concussions and had a vocal opinion which was seen as wrong.

Concussions heal. People change, over time. The other day, one of those mentioned by Khm above logged in, created no trouble. He just spoke, based on my questions. No toxicity. Maybe he matured over time. We engaged each other very respectfully.

We are a dysfunctional family. Even in RL we have people who we wish didn't exist. Yet, they are integral to the family, we forgive them and move on. Argo is the family online for some of us, that's why we are still here and some of us come back to say hello once in a while.

Can we find it in ourselves to review community bans when the time comes?


We regularly review community bans when the people that are banned reach out to us (Or one of their friends if they don't have any means to reach out themselves). We've also lifted several community bans over the years. And as you know community bans are reserved for only the most severe offenders as it blocks access to the entire community.

Just because someone doesn't act out in front of you doesn't mean they don't present bad behavior on the server. I personally got along with a lot of ban evaders and we often had long and in-depth conversations and some were even my friends outside of the server.
But in the end they've broken the servers rules and its up to them to prove to us that they've changed and won't continue with the same behavior that got them removed in the first place. (and if they're community banned they likely performed some sort of malicious attack to the server or community)

There's currently also zero community bans for having a concussion or vocal opinion(I checked) and under current leadership no one would be banned for speaking out so long they are respectful and constructive. And even if they would not meet those criteria, people that break the rules would be warned and punished in less severe ways before a ban would be applied and we would also never apply a community ban unless someones behavior would affect the wider community.



@Huntsman / Hammer

Just like you, our administrative staff and developers have free choice and they'll decide themselves which servers on the community they want to work or play on, we'll never force them to work on another project just because we like that project better ourselves. FiveM has several developers already and if anyone else is interested in working on the server they can reach out to the servers management.

I personally am also very excited for the Argonath Five:M server and you would be wise to remember the fact that this is a community and not just one server and that we're also not competing with ourselves, MTA:SA can exist along side of Five:M, just like SAMP existed along VC, MTA:SA, Stunt and IV at one point, as well as a wide variety of other game servers.

I'd also like to remind you both to have a look at the title of this topic, no one is forcing you to play on SA or respond to these topics with the same response over and over again. I also have a lot less fun on SA:MP than I used to but that doesn't change the fact I am deeply excited for MTA:SA or that there's still people that'd happily continue playing on SAMP once some of the issues we're currently struggling with are resolved.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Stefos on May 15, 2022, 11:26:08 pm
I'm letting SA:MP take a hike because that's the future, and if I was asked to choose between MTA:SA/SA:MP, and V:MP, I'd choose V:MP

Why make a topic on how to bring back SA:MP server then?  :uhm:

Dear Mr. Greasy, the only reason why I made a topic on how to bring SA:MP back was because I love the Argo SA:MP community, and I'd like to see it back. However, I'm not gonna let nostalgia cloud my judgement hence why I said, if Argonath was to focus on either V:MP, or SA:MP as it's primary project, I'd want them to focus completely, and fully on V:MP as that's the future, even if it's over SA:MP. SA:MP, or MTA:SA can't be our primary project, hell no. I mean, if you wanna bring this community down and don't wanna establish a good-base in a client that's growing day by day(FiveM), then by all means, go through it and let MTA, or SA:MP be primary.

Why did you make this topic if all you're going to do is keep saying that SA:MP is dead and try to go against anyone that is willing to give SA a shot?

SA:MP is not a "dead" mod, neither is MTA:SA. There's people here that are still excited for such games. I'm sure that the server will be back in track even if it doesn't last long enough, as soon as they join and get hit with the nostalgia.
 
V:MP can and will be the future yes, since it's a relatively newer game and it has more options script-wise.

For everyone that continues to argue that the community is dying due to lack of owners, do you really want the owners to come back?
We have active Community Leaders, they can easily get in contact with the owners in emergencies, isn't that enough?
Brian and Kessu are always available if anyone needs them.
Owners keep saying that they'll do a comeback, we're used to it, nothing's happening. Why don't we get over it.

People keep blaming it on others cause they can't take the blame themselves.
Maybe if all these people stopped moaning about random stuff and actually played, we'd be an active community.


Also, I don't understand why everyone keeps blaming the Carson project. The Fort Carson Project was not in any way forcing anyone to stay in Carson. You were free to do whatever you wanted, you were encouraged to stay in Carson due to the fact that Carson was relatively smaller than any other city/county, and the interaction with other players was more common. It was a way to bring people together to RP.


There were plenty of SAMPers around during JDC's elections, including those who are supposedly "gone". The reason that was, is that the server itself had a purpose that everyone was able to either follow or simply go against it(in-game wise). We had two experienced candidates (Greasy and myself) that actually provided a lot of opportunity and I loved how everyone in-game played their own part in having a busy server.

Regarding this, Saywer, I wanted to ask you. You said that even if Greasy won the elections, you and the rest of your election party would return as Dentico.
Greasy won, no sign of you.. What happened?

That made me come to the conclusion that people only stick to the server as long as they got what they want. And this has been proven a lot of times over the years tbh.
So what is everyone actually interested in seeing? We're a community afterall, we fight, we become friends again, we're a virtual family.
Let's help each other out. What is your opinion on Argonath? How would you react to an attempt at revival again? If it fails, fuck it, we tried, we move on.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 16, 2022, 01:16:06 am
Dear Mr. Greasy, the only reason why I made a topic on how to bring SA:MP back was because I love the Argo SA:MP community, and I'd like to see it back. However, I'm not gonna let nostalgia cloud my judgement hence why I said, if Argonath was to focus on either V:MP, or SA:MP as it's primary project, I'd want them to focus completely, and fully on V:MP as that's the future, even if it's over SA:MP. SA:MP, or MTA:SA can't be our primary project, hell no. I mean, if you wanna bring this community down and don't wanna establish a good-base in a client that's growing day by day(FiveM), then by all means, go through it and let MTA, or SA:MP be primary.
You say that older games are stale, and FiveM is the future, and yet some of us have already clocked in hundreds, if not thousands of hours in V throughout '13-'22; the game's a decade old next year. Future of what? It's not even close to new and fresh; in fact, some of us are so tired of it already that older games are starting to look more interesting again.
Quote


@Huntsman / Hammer

Just like you, our administrative staff and developers have free choice and they'll decide themselves which servers on the community they want to work or play on, we'll never force them to work on another project just because we like that project better ourselves. FiveM has several developers already and if anyone else is interested in working on the server they can reach out to the servers management.

I personally am also very excited for the Argonath Five:M server and you would be wise to remember the fact that this is a community and not just one server and that we're also not competing with ourselves, MTA:SA can exist along side of Five:M, just like SAMP existed along VC, MTA:SA, Stunt and IV at one point, as well as a wide variety of other game servers.

I'd also like to remind you both to have a look at the title of this topic, no one is forcing you to play on SA or respond to these topics with the same response over and over again. I also have a lot less fun on SA:MP than I used to but that doesn't change the fact I am deeply excited for MTA:SA or that there's still people that'd happily continue playing on SAMP once some of the issues we're currently struggling with are resolved.

There is in no way any competition, nor am I asking anyone to compete. I can’t program, hence I can do nothing to contribute but I always wanted to. I want the SA:MP playerbase to come back, I want to try the new MTA:SA server, it’s all Argonath in general. A community we love, and cherish. I want SA:MP to be brought back, but what I meant was that I wouldn’t want all the focus to be on SA:MP when we have an opportunity to grow more and more in FiveM, and restore our precious community back. This was the first RP server I ever played, I learnt a lot, I swear. I have memories, people don’t remember me since I wasn’t one of the popular ones, one could call me a noob who’d disappear behind the shadows. Someone nobody knew. MTA SA, SA:MP, FiveM, these servers can co-exist, and I’d be really happy if somehow the SA:MP server was restored. It’s one of my wishes to bring back Argo SA:MP, however what I meant was(saying it again), not at the cost of future of Argo. That’s all. @Brian
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 16, 2022, 01:20:29 am
Dear Mr. Greasy, the only reason why I made a topic on how to bring SA:MP back was because I love the Argo SA:MP community, and I'd like to see it back. However, I'm not gonna let nostalgia cloud my judgement hence why I said, if Argonath was to focus on either V:MP, or SA:MP as it's primary project, I'd want them to focus completely, and fully on V:MP as that's the future, even if it's over SA:MP. SA:MP, or MTA:SA can't be our primary project, hell no. I mean, if you wanna bring this community down and don't wanna establish a good-base in a client that's growing day by day(FiveM), then by all means, go through it and let MTA, or SA:MP be primary.
You say that older games are stale, and FiveM is the future, and yet some of us have already clocked in hundreds, if not thousands of hours in V throughout '13-'22; the game's a decade old next year. Future of what? It's not even close to new and fresh; in fact, some of us are so tired of it already that older games are starting to look more interesting again.
Older games aren’t stale, but if you look at the playerbase that’s growinf rapidly on a daily basis in V:MP, and if you look at how SA:MP is slowly dying(it’s not a dead mod, no). I personally prefer SA:MP over everything, it’s genuinely the perfect game mod. I love V:MP, I love SA:MP as well which is why I’d like to see it back active with a stable playerbase. I’d like to try the MTA server too when it releases. Also, V may not be new but you can’t deny the fact that the player count keeps rising in V:MP, despite it being a decade old.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 16, 2022, 02:32:19 am
.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2022, 02:39:33 am

There is in no way any competition, nor am I asking anyone to compete. I can’t program, hence I can do nothing to contribute but I always wanted to. I want the SA:MP playerbase to come back, I want to try the new MTA:SA server, it’s all Argonath in general. A community we love, and cherish. I want SA:MP to be brought back, but what I meant was that I wouldn’t want all the focus to be on SA:MP when we have an opportunity to grow more and more in FiveM, and restore our precious community back. This was the first RP server I ever played, I learnt a lot, I swear. I have memories, people don’t remember me since I wasn’t one of the popular ones, one could call me a noob who’d disappear behind the shadows. Someone nobody knew. MTA SA, SA:MP, FiveM, these servers can co-exist, and I’d be really happy if somehow the SA:MP server was restored. It’s one of my wishes to bring back Argo SA:MP, however what I meant was(saying it again), not at the cost of future of Argo. That’s all. @Brian

But not all the focus is on SAMP, you created this topic yourself with it being aimed solely at the SAMP server yet you then say that SAMP shouldn't be our primary project, even though no one claimed it was. FiveM has people working on it, just like there's people working on VC, GTA III, Minecraft. People will work on what they enjoy and on what they think they'd be good at and fit in well.
And just a FYI, as a community leader I assist all parts of the community and Badandy will also still be helping out with the FiveM server, he just wants his main focus to be MTA:SA.

You are the one that caused this divide between SA and GTA V by thinking there's a "primary" server in the topic you created to focus on SA and you assumed things that are not correct. Neither one server is better than the other, people play what they'll enjoy and just as you might enjoy one server better, someone else will have their own preferences.
If you really want to improve this place stop thinking one thing or one person is better than another, just pick what you enjoy and try to improve on that.

Quote
and if you look at how SA:MP is slowly dying(it’s not a dead mod, no)
Part of that is because the owner has given up on the project and taken down the forums, which included the wiki. It's one of the reasons we want to try and move away from it and make use of MTA:SA.

Old games have their place but we should also be realistic about the potential reach. Overall SA:MP player count seems to point slightly downwards, I assume the same is true for MTA:SA. I think the effort to MTA:SA is worth it still but if I had a choice, I would put all efforts on V:MP instead and launch it sooner rather than later.

Again, our developers and staff are free to choice which projects they want to work on. And if specialized dev work is ever needed servers can always reach out to the other devs who are most of the time happy to help out.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 16, 2022, 03:41:54 am
@Brian - out of curiosity and a desire to understand alone, how would the community leaders expect someone who had a toxic/bad attitude or way of communicating to show that they changed? I felt time would help (since i believed that people mature over time) but I see where you are coming from when you say that an instance of good behavior doesn't mean they have changed (i have paraphrased, please pardon if misunderstood).

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 16, 2022, 07:29:29 am

There is in no way any competition, nor am I asking anyone to compete. I can’t program, hence I can do nothing to contribute but I always wanted to. I want the SA:MP playerbase to come back, I want to try the new MTA:SA server, it’s all Argonath in general. A community we love, and cherish. I want SA:MP to be brought back, but what I meant was that I wouldn’t want all the focus to be on SA:MP when we have an opportunity to grow more and more in FiveM, and restore our precious community back. This was the first RP server I ever played, I learnt a lot, I swear. I have memories, people don’t remember me since I wasn’t one of the popular ones, one could call me a noob who’d disappear behind the shadows. Someone nobody knew. MTA SA, SA:MP, FiveM, these servers can co-exist, and I’d be really happy if somehow the SA:MP server was restored. It’s one of my wishes to bring back Argo SA:MP, however what I meant was(saying it again), not at the cost of future of Argo. That’s all. @Brian

But not all the focus is on SAMP, you created this topic yourself with it being aimed solely at the SAMP server yet you then say that SAMP shouldn't be our primary project, even though no one claimed it was. FiveM has people working on it, just like there's people working on VC, GTA III, Minecraft. People will work on what they enjoy and on what they think they'd be good at and fit in well.
And just a FYI, as a community leader I assist all parts of the community and Badandy will also still be helping out with the FiveM server, he just wants his main focus to be MTA:SA.

You are the one that caused this divide between SA and GTA V by thinking there's a "primary" server in the topic you created to focus on SA and you assumed things that are not correct. Neither one server is better than the other, people play what they'll enjoy and just as you might enjoy one server better, someone else will have their own preferences.
If you really want to improve this place stop thinking one thing or one person is better than another, just pick what you enjoy and try to improve on that.

I assumed wrong thinking there were priorities but all servers are equal, however, I’d still like to see SA:MP back up. I’ll try being there myself in some time, and maybe we could all bring it back.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 16, 2022, 12:39:32 pm
@Brian - out of curiosity and a desire to understand alone, how would the community leaders expect someone who had a toxic/bad attitude or way of communicating to show that they changed? I felt time would help (since i believed that people mature over time) but I see where you are coming from when you say that an instance of good behavior doesn't mean they have changed (i have paraphrased, please pardon if misunderstood).
By not ban evading would be a really good start  :hah:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 16, 2022, 12:42:04 pm
I'd like to ask @Badandy if there will be any follow-up updates on SAMP before you fully move on to MTA?  :rolleyes: I recall some plans and discussions on QOL features around the time you came up as a dev, but the last update we had was in September last year.

@Brian - out of curiosity and a desire to understand alone, how would the community leaders expect someone who had a toxic/bad attitude or way of communicating to show that they changed? I felt time would help (since i believed that people mature over time) but I see where you are coming from when you say that an instance of good behavior doesn't mean they have changed (i have paraphrased, please pardon if misunderstood).
By not ban evading would be a really good start  :hah:

^+1

Don't wanna lick ass, but seriously thank you Kessu. If only people applied the rules as they are written in SAMP, we wouldn't have died off.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Sawyer on May 16, 2022, 12:45:03 pm
Regarding this, Saywer, I wanted to ask you. You said that even if Greasy won the elections, you and the rest of your election party would return as Dentico.
That was the original plan, since my whole involvement as a candidate started off as a troll-ish personal bet with Lawrence Dentico.

Greasy won, no sign of you.. What happened?

Since that didn't happen and my original crime political party did not wish to get involved (although I personally tried my best to motivate them to), I was right there in-game, after the elections, and went for FBI along with my trusted friend Leroy Kolta. We both had our exams, trainings and lessons for around 2 straight weeks and formed a great agent-duo for a while.. until the server died.

We're not campaigning right now buddy, so you are a few months late for bullshittery, but have a nice day.  :hah:

That made me come to the conclusion that people only stick to the server as long as they got what they want.
I was barely missing out at top 3 of in-game activity even after the elections because freaks like blitz, Terro and Mike Collin were constantly online 24/7. I genuinely feel your biased judgement has blinded you friend.




I felt time would help (since i believed that people mature over time)
I'm not sure about that.  :hah:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 16, 2022, 03:07:11 pm
I'd like to ask @Badandy if there will be any follow-up updates on SAMP before you fully move on to MTA?  :rolleyes: I recall some plans and discussions on QOL features around the time you came up as a dev, but the...

As I said before, once we move to MTA SA, the SAMP is most likely will be shutdown eventually unless the SAMP server has a consistent player base. The SAMP server or code won't be deleted though so if for some reason it needs to come back, it could. About updates to SAMP server before moving, I will be releasing an announcement about that along with information about MTA SA and other tidbits in the coming weeks. If you have any questions, DM me on Discord.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2022, 06:25:49 pm
@Brian - out of curiosity and a desire to understand alone, how would the community leaders expect someone who had a toxic/bad attitude or way of communicating to show that they changed? I felt time would help (since i believed that people mature over time) but I see where you are coming from when you say that an instance of good behavior doesn't mean they have changed (i have paraphrased, please pardon if misunderstood).

Reach out to us, show some sort of remorse, explain to us what made them get to the point where they'd perform attacks on the community or what caused their toxic behavior towards the community/ its members. They could also tell us why they'd like to return to the community or how they changed their behavior to become a better person. Some form of assurance that their behavior would not repeat itself. And in a perfect world an understand of how their behavior affected the community and how they got in to the spot they're in now. I wouldn't say its too much different than a normal unban request, the only difference is that there's no topic or section you can apply for one.

We tend to be quite forgiving and many of us in staff have been banned at some point in our past. But if someone continues to ban evade or continues to blame us for their own actions there's little we can do to help them out, the change has to come from within them and they'll have to step up for us to be able move forward together.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 17, 2022, 06:16:25 am
Thank you Brian. I will definitely refer him and anyone else I know is banned for this, here. It's good to have complete clarity.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Huntsman on May 18, 2022, 03:47:45 pm
A lot of what is suggested is patchwork. Things that were tried to an extent before, and did not work. I can say on my own view: localising the server into one of the smaller towns would not make me come back. would rather put me off from joining instead.

I think that in general for Argonath to be revived there has to be a change in ownership. New, prominent, and progressive leaders need to rise up. Leaders, and their presence, was in part what kept the SAMP server active for all these years. New leaders who'd give a sense of direction, and hope for the players.

But the biggest factor is us - we just need to shut up and get back to playing. We can talk what needs to be done until we turn blue but the fact is that no-one is willing to do shit on their part. Just get into the server, just play. I think the issue here is that most people just don't want to play anymore. It's a decade old game almost. It has gotten boring. Most of us no-lifed the shit out of it in our teen years. It feel antiquated by now.

I still insist that Argonath moving on to GTA V and focusing all of its efforts and resources there is the way forward. It's new, it's flexible, it has an active playerbase. If we all would just stick to playing one, most recent server instead, we could then have some hope of revival. But this won't happen, because people are not willing to lose the positions they hold in the antiquated games :).

Sorry, but my outlook does remain grim.
having abandoned SAMP at around 2017
I know this hurts to hear, as we all have respective sentiments attached to SAMP, or VCMP. But these are done for. I don't think that it's possible to revive a server for games that old.

(https://y.yarn.co/1b9d46b3-fba9-4881-b27d-913c6d641334_text.gif)

:D.
I think your attitude sums up what and why pretty much.

I played the server for over ten years. OVER TEN FUCKING YEARS, Carl. And yet my opinion is now moot because I dont play it anymore.
I don't play it for a reason. Are you not interested to know why people don't play anymore? Because with this attitude, what is even the point of these discussions then?

You keep contemplating on how to bring the veteran players back or gain new ones, but when somebody tells you what is the reason they left in the first place, you dismiss them, laugh them off, and make fun of them. Way to go, genius. Amazing.

Not to mention that for the absolute majority of my playtime in Argonath you were inactive. Re-appearing for one month in a year and then disappearing again, only a forum post here and there reminding us of your presence. And now you have the audacity to be judgemental about activity? Really :D.

Nobody wants to play SAMP anymore because the only people left there are the likes of you - who only hear what they want to hear and dismiss any opinion that does not suit their agenda.

Sorry to break it to you, but if we compare our playtimes in SAMP,  my opinion actually has far more weight. I atleast was there to see why was it that people enjoyed the game in the first place ;).

----
@Huntsman / Hammer

Just like you, our administrative staff and developers have free choice and they'll decide themselves which servers on the community they want to work or play on, we'll never force them to work on another project just because we like that project better ourselves. FiveM has several developers already and if anyone else is interested in working on the server they can reach out to the servers management.

I personally am also very excited for the Argonath Five:M server and you would be wise to remember the fact that this is a community and not just one server and that we're also not competing with ourselves, MTA:SA can exist along side of Five:M, just like SAMP existed along VC, MTA:SA, Stunt and IV at one point, as well as a wide variety of other game servers.

I'd also like to remind you both to have a look at the title of this topic, no one is forcing you to play on SA or respond to these topics with the same response over and over again. I also have a lot less fun on SA:MP than I used to but that doesn't change the fact I am deeply excited for MTA:SA or that there's still people that'd happily continue playing on SAMP once some of the issues we're currently struggling with are resolved.

Well, I understand your view, but I think it represents on of the main problems with Argonath - failure to understand that times changes, and that community needs to adapt.

I believe the reason it began to die out, outside of all the issues with the HQ/playerbase mentality, was that Argonath was stagnant. It introduced nothing new, failed to explore new ventures, but kept relying on SAMP to maintain its popularity. It was very late to jump on the IV:MP train, too late to acquire any substantial playerbase.

SAMP is old. While communities that still have a loyal playerbase might see success in keeping it playing, I do not think it is possible to "re-assemble" a player base for a game this old. People already have servers they play, where they have earned things, created some sort of standing. They probably don't want to invest into creating all of this anew for a game this old.

I normally would agree with you - it was great to have a community that had such different subcommunities: SAMP, VCMP and IVMP all were different in their own ways and it was fun to explore those differences. But times and circumstances have changed, and if Argonath wants to see any chance of becoming a thing again, I truly believe one game, and one server has to become its focus. And it only makes sense that it should be the most recent one with the biggest playerbase.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 18, 2022, 06:02:49 pm
I played the server for over ten years. OVER TEN FUCKING YEARS

(https://i.imgur.com/jo3AwXk.png)



Not to mention that for the absolute majority of my playtime in Argonath you were inactive. Re-appearing for one month in a year and then disappearing again, only a forum post here and there reminding us of your presence. And now you have the audacity to be judgemental about activity? Really :D.

For someone who hasn't contributed to Argonath SAMP in any way whatsoever you seem to be quite invested in this.
I've been around for over a dozen years, yet I've only seen you on forums trashtalking SA:MP in almost every single discussion. You've said it yourself - you left back in 2017. You have no idea what the climate or the speed of the server were and are at the moment, yet you keep coming in like you know better than us. I'm fairly confident that my presence both In Game and on forums has been noticeable enough to leave a mark, considering my and my group's achievements. So don't you worry about my activity.

You're good at pointing out the obvious, but that doesn't get us anywhere. How about you show us how to do it, since you have the know how? Chip in with an idea every once in a while, show us how to fix it.  ;)
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Khm on May 18, 2022, 06:26:44 pm
This is exactly why the server won't regain its activity again, this is not the place where we compare how big our e-penises are, return back to the purpose of this thread it's okay to disagree but what's not okay is shitting on eachother because one thinks he's better than the other. Cut off the childish argument or else futher actions will be taken to keep this topic clean.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 18, 2022, 06:56:41 pm
Cut off the childish argument or else futher actions will be taken to keep this topic clean.

I've kept on topic and have contributed. Last I recall people who only stuck around to throw shit at the server/community were to be removed. I have not seen any constructive idea or criticism from Huntsman for the past 3 or 4 topics. This is a topic on how the SA:MP server can be brought back to an active state, yet someone who left the server keeps talking on the players' behalf and being a general nuisance. All he's been doing for the past few years is throwing shit at our efforts at any given opportunity, without any contribution or arguments. You don't deserve it, I do not deserve it, none of us SAMP players deserve it.

 That's toxic and cancerous behavior that I honestly think has no place in our community.

Just to remain on topic, I'll repeat myself regarding on ways to bring back SA:MP:
* Revision and cleanup of the group system. Throwing out the old trash only to fill in with the new was done enough times, to be proven inefficient.
 * Remove the multi-accounting rule - let us have multiple accounts for different characters. I'm not aware if anything made it worse, but back in the day spotting ban-evaders was easy.
 * HQ should forget about the "it can be abused. denied." attitude for ideas. Stop antagonizing the playerbase. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure people do not abuse scripts, but rejecting essential updates because someone can be a retard is just laziness. (Applies to all servers, not just SAMP).
 * Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. PLAYERBASE =/= ACTIVITY. Interact with eachother, don't grind the scripts. If you wish to drive a truck, fly a plane, grow weed and be left in peace - there's enough Singleplayer mods that allow you to do that. When joining SAMP(MP=MULTIplayer), you're there to play with others, not roam around on your own.
 * Transparency - HQ and players should be open about any discussion. I'm tired of the "we're working on more important things" from HQ/Server Leads. No you're not, you're busy, you're not interested, you can't be arsed, you don't think it's a good idea, you don't like the player who suggested it. Fine. It's all fine. But don't bullshit us, we've been around for too long. Sure, Nathan can be vocal about it and that's why he's everywhere, but what about the times when I reached out to HQ? Didn't even get a "thanks for your interest".
 * Stop expecting change to happen and requesting it, be the change. It can work out. If not, use it as a lesson.

 I've interacted with a few people throughout the last week and honestly had fun. The broken tax system is a perfect opportunity for some tax evasion and collection Roleplay. If you really are interested in reviving this - just head In Game, others will surely follow. I would appreciate if we had some active staff however, as people do tend to still break rules, regardless of the low playerbase.

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 18, 2022, 07:29:45 pm
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 18, 2022, 07:41:01 pm
* HQ should forget about the "it can be abused. denied." attitude for ideas. Stop antagonizing the playerbase. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure people do not abuse scripts, but rejecting essential updates because someone can be a retard is just laziness. (Applies to all servers, not just SAMP).
 * Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. PLAYERBASE =/= ACTIVITY. Interact with eachother, don't grind the scripts. If you wish to drive a truck, fly a plane, grow weed and be left in peace - there's enough Singleplayer mods that allow you to do that. When joining SAMP(MP=MULTIplayer), you're there to play with others, not roam around on your own.
 * Transparency - HQ and players should be open about any discussion. I'm tired of the "we're working on more important things" from HQ/Server Leads. No you're not, you're busy, you're not interested, you can't be arsed, you don't think it's a good idea, you don't like the player who suggested it. Fine. It's all fine. But don't bullshit us, we've been around for too long. Sure, Nathan can be vocal about it and that's why he's everywhere, but what about the times when I reached out to HQ? Didn't even get a "thanks for your interest".
 * Stop expecting change to happen and requesting it, be the change. It can work out. If not, use it as a lesson.

The first point you make has not been true since I became the developer for SAMP. You are 100% right and I'm still using this idea going into MTA SA. I will implement anything that doesn't violate game integrity or be impossible or doesn't fit the overall server. My scripted content will be made so players cannot abuse it. Interaction with the world and players are also my goal for MTA SA.

Your second point, I feel like we have been very open lately about plans for SAMP and MTA SA. We ran a survey which I plan to announce the results and plans we are going to do in a few weeks. SAMP will probably have no dedicated staff or developers after MTA SA releases and eventually will probably be taken down. There may be one last update to SAMP in the meantime but other than that, can't promise anything since the focus is on MTA SA. If you have any suggestions for a final update to SAMP, let us know but this won't be a revival update or anything massive. Bug fixes and fun additions will be considered.

Change is going to happen but the future isn't with SAMP. I will consider all previous and future SAMP ideas while working on MTA SA. Official announcement about SAMP and MTA SA in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 18, 2022, 11:47:40 pm
When I think about it, it sounds like something that could fit well into RedM, the "FiveM" for RDR2.

That setting would fit Argonath's style of RP (and DM disguised as RP :D).

If anyone knows how to work RedM, I'd be more than interested in something like this honestly
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 19, 2022, 10:45:28 am
If anyone knows how to work RedM, I'd be more than interested in something like this honestly
It's better than FiveM, IMO, because the setting forces a shift from the two usual "I am tony montana" and "I am also tony montana but policeman" gta archetypes. What is more enjoyable: fucking around in the WILD WEST, where you have no obligations whatsoever, or doing some stupid, monotonous "drive from a to b" jobs in GTA V, a game that, by the way, was supposed to be an action game, and not a tooth-grinding simulator of modern day peasantry down to the ugliest details.

The first point you make has not been true since I became the developer for SAMP. You are 100% right and I'm still using this idea going into MTA SA. I will implement anything that doesn't violate game integrity or be impossible or doesn't fit the overall server. My scripted content will be made so players cannot abuse it. Interaction with the world and players are also my goal for MTA SA.

Your second point, I feel like we have been very open lately about plans for SAMP and MTA SA. We ran a survey which I plan to announce the results and plans we are going to do in a few weeks. SAMP will probably have no dedicated staff or developers after MTA SA releases and eventually will probably be taken down. There may be one last update to SAMP in the meantime but other than that, can't promise anything since the focus is on MTA SA. If you have any suggestions for a final update to SAMP, let us know but this won't be a revival update or anything massive. Bug fixes and fun additions will be considered.

Change is going to happen but the future isn't with SAMP. I will consider all previous and future SAMP ideas while working on MTA SA. Official announcement about SAMP and MTA SA in a few weeks.

Too vague to make any conclusions; I just hope that you're making something different enough from everybody else's servers (not within Argonath, but within MTA and SA-MP). There have to be some unique features nobody else has; otherwise, why not download a ready-made server and tweak it? Will take a week, and not half a year.

Now, here's an ad of a Russian server in Russian (I trust that because of a different language used, this won't be removed) as an example:
https://youtu.be/PAqB89NzEuE
This is 0.3DL (I think), but that's not the point; look how different it is. You look at it for 2 minutes, and you already see it stands on it own, it's unique, etc. Now, obviously, nobody demands the same amount of work, nor anything even remotely close to that; just consider how it's boring when there's LSPD HQ and City Hall in Pershing Square, same exact place where they were in RS3, RS4, maybe even RS2 (can hardly remember what was in it, lol).

I feel that to justify making a new server in 2022, you have to actively fight those rails, the same old formula. If the server is predictable (same jobs, same places, same commands), has too many vanilla mechanics (similarities to SP), then it's boring the moment it is released. That's just my opinion, though, maybe I am wrong and everybody wants to continue their sophisticated, 10 years in the making, personal role-play epic about how they were a police gangster—whose parents died when they were 12—and then through great effort and character development they managed to become a gangster cop instead. :cop:
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 19, 2022, 12:53:29 pm
If it matters - SAMP had 3 new players join today thanks to a single reddit post. We now need people in-game to help them as I can't be in all the time. And naturally, they will leave if no one is there.

So please, pop in once in a while so that they would come in and get help. Even if you only have half an hour.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Bas on May 19, 2022, 01:16:38 pm
I think SA:MP is pretty much done for, for how many years have people tried to bring it back? And how successful has it been? I think they're currently on the right track to try something new with MTA, as MTA is still somewhat populated. Let's see how it pans out and let SA:MP be for what it is. If MTA doesn't work out in the end perhaps it's not so much the servers that are done for but the community as a whole. Looking at the current player base for most if not all argonath servers that could be the case as well. A couple of veterans preaching on the forums for people to come in-game to entertain three new players is probably not the way. It's an effort, just not the solution.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Cutt3r on May 19, 2022, 01:33:29 pm
Three is just a start. I strongly believe more will join.

And it's just a request, am trying to get more people here because even if I'm the only one, I do not believe that SAMP is dead. Many have tried before and tried well. But it's not dead. If it was, other servers wouldn't exist with the player base they have.

Not many are keen to be in game but if they could, things may actually work better and we would have a player base to move into MTA when the time comes.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Huntsman on May 19, 2022, 04:38:11 pm
<bunch of salty BS again>

I had an account since 2009, in RS4 I believe. I even remember the nick: Max_Pain. :). The account has changed since.

I have provided more than enough insight, reasons, and possible solutions. It is not my problem you insist on ignoring whatever you I say and keep bringing up shit about my activity. And the last login is probably going to remain in 2017. Because of people like you :>.

I have contributed more than enough in my time. I don't remember you contributing to the server in any way back 2010-2016 though. Oh yes, the biker gang that was consistently inactive, made to exist once a year.

Again, you can't wish for former players to be back and then give them shit at the same time. Make up your mind.

Yes, I am invested, because it was a place I once loved and no-lifed in. It was a big part of my childhood and I hate to see it go.

Bas seems to put my thoughts together well, only that I disagree on the MTA solution, and prefer people focus on GTA V.
I think SA:MP is pretty much done for, for how many years have people tried to bring it back? And how successful has it been? I think they're currently on the right track to try something new with MTA, as MTA is still somewhat populated. Let's see how it pans out and let SA:MP be for what it is. If MTA doesn't work out in the end perhaps it's not so much the servers that are done for but the community as a whole. Looking at the current player base for most if not all argonath servers that could be the case as well. A couple of veterans preaching on the forums for people to come in-game to entertain three new players is probably not the way. It's an effort, just not the solution.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 20, 2022, 11:17:17 am
People who say we should only focus on GTA V, it's not going to happen.

We won't have 3 CLs, don't even remember outright how many DLs we have right now and all scripters be aimed towards one server. It wouldn't help V server at all, not to mention stepping over everyone who have been involved with the V server development.

Warren has GTA V development under his control, Brian is mostly focused on SA and helps out with GTA III and I hop around based on where I'm needed. That's mostly in VC  :D

We have the resources to focus on multiple servers to have them be developed and what not, so we'll continue to do that.



As for you guys airing your dirty laundry, stop it. We don't care about how you feel about each others. Keep the focus of the topic on the server and not your personal opinions about the people talking about it.

Keep on suggesting things, we're still listening and the doors are wide open for ideas regarding MTASA, SAMP and everything else within the community.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 20, 2022, 01:37:52 pm
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kowalski. on May 20, 2022, 02:16:29 pm
Mark my words, this will be the reason why Argonath dies.

Remove the focus from six things (III:MP, SA:MP, MTA:SA, VC:MP, Minecraft, IV:MP + over 13 Discord servers) and focus all energy on only one really great product (my vote is on V:MP). Down the line, explore the option of enhancing the other ones WHEN we have the player count and the resources.

I'll outline my response in point form to cover my bases.

1 - FiveM:

Argonath FiveM has a team behind it, spearheaded by Warren. However, even if Argonath FiveM were to release tomorrow, it would exist in a very vast sea of roleplay servers that wouldn't just happen to bring in a whole bunch of players right off the bat. Why Argonath over the 500 other servers out there? Before you say "Argonath is a bigger name" or something along those lines, I imagine some would consider it to be a complete joke at this point. I can't see that working out too well, not standalone. Plus, it would limit the community to players who only have access to GTA V and PCs capable of running it. I know it sounds ridiculous in 2022, but there are people in less well-off circumstances out there.

Realistically, what is the point in "everyone focusing on FiveM" when the community we currently have pretty much knows of FiveM's existence and would likely come to play anyway? We are not a huge community at this point, plenty of people are well aware of FiveM across the community. Having the other servers open is not a loss. Plus, people like different roleplay styles too. Why should we restrict the community to one style of roleplay that some may like, and others may dislike? That's not gonna bring in more players, if anything, could very well be the contrary.

2 - III:MP:

Argonath III:MP is an initiative that would appeal to a new client and aim to bring in players who enjoy retro gaming to the community. By proxy, I'm sure some of the III:MP playerbase that we do end up with would explore the rest of the community, and maybe also start playing on FiveM. However, GTA V standalone isn't a single path forward, and to try to depend on it entirely is literally repeating history with how Argonath prioritised SA:MP, where did that get us?

Newsflash, not everyone likes GTA V.




Argonath lost activity for many reasons, however, focusing merely on FiveM is useless. Not everyone appeals to GTA V alone, and not everyone can even run it. Revitalizing the community is important, and doing it through fresh initiatives are what matters.

FiveM is one of them. MTA:SA is another. CitizenIV is a fresh start for IV, which never really realized its true potential. III:MP is one more to add to the server portfolio - bringing to life a project that never came to fruition on LU:MP.

So, to sum it up, focusing only on FiveM is absurd, not everyone likes GTA V nor can everyone run it. To assume otherwise is at best silly, and at worst delusional. We have nothing to lose by having teams dedicated to new projects that will only serve as value-add to the Argonath community.

There is no focus, no mission. Just a team of community leaders and division leaders with everyone pulling the blanket in their direction and nobody is willing to change nor listen to the suggestions provided. Instead, things will be done as they always have been done. The players have listed great suggestions but instead, none of them will be taken into action. But guys, guess what? "The doors are wide open" so you should feel good about having the ability to say something. In the past, you would have been community banned! You are so, so lucky to be here. (sarcasm)

I don't know what's swayed your opinion in this direction or the backstory of what happened with you and MTA:SA, but I can tell you from first-hand experience that you're incorrect. I approached the community leadership to start Argonath III:MP, and they were very approachable. They gave us the green light and autonomy over our project, myself and Gruia running the show as we see fit, with them available for advice and assistance, which they have provided plenty of. The doors are wide open - I've had the freedom to speak out against people, and I haven't been punished for it or suppressed from holding my views. Civility doesn't cost anything but is a major value-add. I'm sure you know what I'm speaking of, but one of Argonath's main competitors has such a terrible atmosphere that one of the owners quit. What does that tell you?

If the Community Leaders were "pulling the blanket in their direction", would we be given full autonomy over how we decide to run III:MP? I imagine not. Would the transition to MTA:SA be a thing? I imagine not.

If this community was as you describe it to be, then I can't imagine III:MP would even be here. Myself and Luca (Gruia) aren't community hotshots or BFFs with the CLs. If anything, I've had plenty of disagreements and even arguments with them in the past. However, we all just want a better community, and we all know civility is a major part of achieving it. None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes. However, it doesn't help to point the finger and suggest unrealistic prospects that would likely do more harm than good in the current circumstances.

Just play Argonath, just take part in whatever you enjoy, V:MP, III:MP, whatever. If you really want to do something, come up with a plan, pitch it and stick to it. Take part in anything you like, but stay true to what you believe in and stay true to what you enjoy in the community. It's really not that hard. Matter of fact, I'll simplify it even more.

Just do whatever you enjoy doing on Argonath RPG.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: TheGreasyChopper on May 20, 2022, 02:16:54 pm
It wouldn't help V server at all, not to mention stepping over everyone who have been involved with the V server development.

Warren has GTA V development under his control,

We have the resources to focus on multiple servers to have them be developed and what not, so we'll continue to do that.

I'm sorry, but where are these developers? I understand that there are less than a 100 people still active throughout the entire community, but per the information I was able to find in the V:MP section of forums, it shows that we have 3 developers there. The last update I saw regarding that would be:

Let's get straight to it. It was a bit optimistic to get to an alpha stable build from the ground up in 1 year and at this stage we are unlikely to release to the wider community for at least 6 months.

Which was exactly 6 months ago. Now, the point here is not FiveM, MTA, VC:MP, it is about SA:MP. But this pretty much backs up my initial point - lack of transparency and frequent updates. And empty promises and plans. Now, as a community is built by the players, I believe it is in our hands to get things going. But this lack of any input from Community HQs is offputting.

Big plans, big ideas, "this next one's gonna be the real one forreal, promise". Now while I do believe Andy's intentions are 100% pure and for the good of our future, but can we start seeing some progress? Do you really need WEEKS to review and assess the survey data for MTA:SA? Did hundreds magically show up to chip in with their answers?  :uhm:

You need to pick your shit up. It is obvious you keep eyes on these kinds of topics, you moderate them and step in when something goes south. But for the love of Sauron, SHOW us the results of these topics. I've already managed to meet a few of the players involved in these topics IG and played with them for a few hours throughout the last week.

Why is Cutt3r, a veteran player, the only one going around advertising the community? Why is the Argonath Facebook page dead? Why haven't we looked for a few twitch streamers to boost interest? What was done in the past three months from Development of each of these servers? There have been 0 changelogs posted for ANY of our servers in 2022. I understand JDC's missing due to RL priorities, but he's been AWOL for ages now.

I'm not nobody's boss to demand things like this, but I'm tired, guys. I love this place, I've not been involved in any other community throughout these years that I stuck around to. Do you even want to keep this going, or are you just waiting for player interest to die out completely so you can do your own thing? If that's so than just say it - resign. You have the killswitch - pull it. But please don't throw sand in our eyes in an attempt to maintain whatever order there is. We're on life support, so either tell us what surgeries you can do, how you've been treating the patient, or simply pull the plug and let the proverbial patient die peacefully.

Edit:

Not everyone appeals to GTA V alone, and not everyone can even run it. Revitalizing the community is important, and doing it through fresh initiatives are what matters.
So, to sum it up, focusing only on FiveM is absurd, not everyone likes GTA V nor can everyone run it. To assume otherwise is at best silly, and at worst delusional. We have nothing to lose by having teams dedicated to new projects that will only serve as value-add to the Argonath community.

100% agree. I recently got a new PC and I'm glad I can get GTA:V running properly again, but I have no interest in FiveM as a client, I prefer RageMP. FiveM is currently only popular due to the amount of voice-based roleplay servers on Twitch and Facebook gaming, which I have a strong dislike for. I prefer the text based roleplay that RageMP offers.

Unlike SA:MP/MTA:SA and VC:MP/MTA:VC the compatibility between RageMP and FiveM is not ideal, meaning you can't really be active on both clients. Players play on other servers as well, the majority of the SA:MP roleplay community(All servers, including ours and others) has moved to GTA World, which nets over 500 players on a daily basis. Can you really compare this to the most popular FiveM Roleplay server No Pixel with it's 200 playercap? While there are plans for new RageMP RP servers, there are quite a few of them, compared to the endless amount of FiveM RP servers. It is much easier to shine bright and stand out within a few servers than in a sea of mediocrity.

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 20, 2022, 04:54:30 pm
Big plans, big ideas, "this next one's gonna be the real one forreal, promise". Now while I do believe Andy's intentions are 100% pure and for the good of our future, but can we start seeing some progress? Do you really need WEEKS to review and assess the survey data for MTA:SA? Did hundreds magically show up to chip in with their answers?  :uhm:

You need to pick your shit up. It is obvious you keep eyes on these kinds of topics, you moderate them and step in when something goes south. But for the love of Sauron, SHOW us the results of these topics. I've already managed to meet a few of the players involved in these topics IG and played with them for a few hours throughout the last week.

It takes weeks to make plans based on data, yes. There are internal discussions that you aren't part of and I won't tell you every time I shit either. My nephew was also just born unexpectedly soon so I had to help with that. Two weeks is nothing to make a plan for a new server along with discussions with people and also balancing my full time job. If you want this done any faster, it won't happen and if you want action to be done, you need to be patient. If you want shit now, you aren't getting it from me. Also this isn't a fucking business. Do something else while plans and announcements are handled. Two weeks isn't alot of time. Development is going to take alot longer than that so buckle up but I'll keep you updated along the way.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: JayL on May 20, 2022, 05:16:11 pm
Mark my words, this will be the reason why Argonath dies.

[thesis]

Remove the focus from six things (III:MP, SA:MP, MTA:SA, VC:MP, Minecraft, IV:MP + over 13 Discord servers) and focus all energy on only one really great product (my vote is on V:MP). Down the line, explore the option of enhancing the other ones WHEN we have the player count and the resources.

It is rather in FiveM and co. that one should tread carefully. Have you missed the launching of gta+ subscriptions? Do you seriously think that Take-Two will just sit and pick on its nose when, a few quarterly reports down the road, someone starts questioning why the hell they let third-party software offer competition to their paid online gameplay?

I find it woefully inadequate to look for parallels with Argonath in big business. NGOs, community initiatives, scientific paper proposals—even anarchist experiments would be better, IMO. When has Argonath even been managed like a business?

I invite you to think twice before going around selling GTA V as THE solution to the problem in Argonath just because it's the latest stuff around.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 20, 2022, 05:32:11 pm
Mark my words, this will be the reason why Argonath dies.

There is no focus, no mission. Just a team of community leaders and division leaders with everyone pulling the blanket in their direction and nobody is willing to change nor listen to the suggestions provided. Instead, things will be done as they always have been done. The players have listed great suggestions but instead, none of them will be taken into action. But guys, guess what? "The doors are wide open" so you should feel good about having the ability to say something. In the past, you would have been community banned! You are so, so lucky to be here. (sarcasm)

Our focus is pretty clear, it just doesn't align with yours. We don't intend to make this community a place where you can buy yourself to be ahead of others or buy yourself a rank. That's something that past HQs clearly attempted and failed, case in point you were in charge.

We listen to suggestions and based on those suggestions we're going for MTA:SA while taking in the feedback from people who know the platform better, for example JayL and Mario_Rinna. We also took in the feedback from the survey, badandy is working on the topic to make the data easy to read and to (from what I've understood) also provide some plans regarding what kind of server it will be. We also added Thom as a SA:MP moderator recently based on his abilities and possible future prospects that he will work on with the rest of the administration. This is far different approach from "what has been done before".

You'd know that we listen to feedback a lot if you didn't ragequit every chat each time someone even remotely says anything against your ideas, including the likes of paying money to get ingame benefits  :hah:

Don't believe me? I'll bring up a historical example: Apple made the mistake of firing Steve Jobs in 1985, who was an asshole to the people he worked with but had a vision and knew how to lead. They replaced him with John Scully (dude from Pepsi), and later on with two other CEOs, each without a proper direction. Want to know what happens when you bring a replacement with no single vision? A bunch of bloat with many product lines that didn't fit the overall picture. Everyone was building what they wanted. This resulted in further marketshare loss and a complete decline to the point where in 1996, Apple was weeks away from bankruptcy.

The story goes that Apple decided to purchase NeXTSTEP to get Steve Jobs to come back. Immediately after, Steve fired board member(s) and canceled 70% of the product lines. In first year, Apple made a profit of $309 million and is the behemoth it is today.

Gaming community is not a business even remotely similar to Apple. We do not operate to gain profit. We operate in order to have a place where you can come in, relax and take some time off from the shitshow that is real life.

History doesn't repeat but it certainly does rhyme, no matter the scale. I don't like being a doomsayer but if no changes will be made, we're on a free fall of death as a community.
We're not a dead community, it's just dead based on imaginary standard you try to hold the community to. Yes, we do not have 100+ player server anymore. That means we're dead? No it does not. The community is not one server, it is the people. That's what you clearly don't understand and why you're out here complaining about shit you have no clue of and talk out of your ass just out of despite.

Remove the focus from six things (III:MP, SA:MP, MTA:SA, VC:MP, Minecraft, IV:MP + over 13 Discord servers) and focus all energy on only one really great product (my vote is on V:MP). Down the line, explore the option of enhancing the other ones WHEN we have the player count and the resources.
I'll remove focus from reading your bullshit to be honest.

III:MP people have no interest nor care to work on GTA V server.
VC:MP people have no interest nor care to work on GTA V server.

You get it? Of course you don't because "dEaD cOmMuNiTy".

You have severe case of tunnel vision and it's clearly showing. Take a step back, open your fucking eyes and start thinking logically and within the realms of reality.

Your help in the group chat with badandy and Brian was greatly appreciated until you decided to throw a tantrum like a 3 year old who didn't get candy on a wednesday. Guess what, we still didn't throw the ideas you already gave away. Instead we just focus on working with a team who isn't acting like a goddamn child and complains for a living.



It wouldn't help V server at all, not to mention stepping over everyone who have been involved with the V server development.

Warren has GTA V development under his control,

We have the resources to focus on multiple servers to have them be developed and what not, so we'll continue to do that.

I'm sorry, but where are these developers? I understand that there are less than a 100 people still active throughout the entire community, but per the information I was able to find in the V:MP section of forums, it shows that we have 3 developers there.

VC:MP has 2 active developers, one a little less active and one who doesn't actively script at all but is working as a system administrator for us. VC:MP also has 2 leaders working on it with the entire administrative team being involved in the development.

SA:MP has 1 developer with a support group of a few people to bounce ideas off of and with ability to do some slight adjustments. Staff is involved in the development of MTA:SA quite a bit to mold the general idea of the server, because we do not intend it to be copypasted SA:MP server.

GTA V has 3 developers, one of them being community leader and a division leader with a good, active HQ and staff to work with them.

III:MP has 1 developer working on it and 2 "newbie" HQ members who ask the CL team for advice when they need it.

Only Chase out of all of them are involved with more than 1 server, and his main focus is GTA V. Rest are focused specifically on their own respective servers and adding them to another project they have not been involved with in any way will not benefit anyone or anything.




Big plans, big ideas, "this next one's gonna be the real one forreal, promise". Now while I do believe Andy's intentions are 100% pure and for the good of our future, but can we start seeing some progress? Do you really need WEEKS to review and assess the survey data for MTA:SA? Did hundreds magically show up to chip in with their answers?  :uhm:

Most of the progress will happen behind the curtains. Badandy is already working hard enough to give you guys a server from his free time. We don't expect him to throw his entire life in to developing a server, it's a hobby at best to work on a server, not a job. And before you even think about paying the developers, we all saw how that worked out with Teddy in the past  :hah: Ain't happening again.



You need to pick your shit up. It is obvious you keep eyes on these kinds of topics, you moderate them and step in when something goes south. But for the love of Sauron, SHOW us the results of these topics. I've already managed to meet a few of the players involved in these topics IG and played with them for a few hours throughout the last week.

We barely moderate these topics at all. In fact, no one has made any moderation acts in this topic for example. We just force you guys to keep it civil instead of going on the side of toxic arguments, because that does not belong in this community. It might've been allowed in the past during certain HQs, but we will not tolerate it.

Why is Cutt3r, a veteran player, the only one going around advertising the community? Why is the Argonath Facebook page dead? Why haven't we looked for a few twitch streamers to boost interest? What was done in the past three months from Development of each of these servers? There have been 0 changelogs posted for ANY of our servers in 2022. I understand JDC's missing due to RL priorities, but he's been AWOL for ages now.

Cutt3r advertises the community because he was willing to do something instead of just continuing to chat around the forums. I personally never have advertised the community outside of the videos I've made from VC:MP and I will never do more than that. Best kind of advertising is the community itself showing off what they've done in the server, and when no one plays there's nothing to advertise. Simple as that.

I don't know nor care about facebook page, not part of any social medias myself.

Twitch streamers do not advertise a damn thing without being paid for it. And asking anything else would be greedy and quite honestly fucking rude. Entitlement to the max.

VC:MP server is making a new script from scratch that is being tested, there will not be any news about it nor any changelogs that you can see. The entire server and it's systems will be tested within administrative team and released once fully ready to the public.

JDC will be removed from his position should we fail to reach him within reasonable time.



I'm not nobody's boss to demand things like this, but I'm tired, guys. I love this place, I've not been involved in any other community throughout these years that I stuck around to. Do you even want to keep this going, or are you just waiting for player interest to die out completely so you can do your own thing? If that's so than just say it - resign. You have the killswitch - pull it. But please don't throw sand in our eyes in an attempt to maintain whatever order there is. We're on life support, so either tell us what surgeries you can do, how you've been treating the patient, or simply pull the plug and let the proverbial patient die peacefully.

The fact you even say this shows how little attention you've given to anything we've done and said in the past couple weeks alone. We're working our asses off to provide you guys updates, quite honestly almost fully transparent communication and all we're getting for it is complaints about how we're not doing anything ??????



Fact of the matter is we're doing the best we can with the time we have, but we ain't going to put our lives on hold nor do we expect anyone else to do so just to make a server.

Development takes time and the community was left in the fucking shit after several previous HQs ran it to the ground despite our warnings that it will happen. We're here to pick up the pieces and see what we can do with it. It's not going to be a particularly fast or smooth recovery. But we will work on recovering without the cost of toxic shitshows left and right which is one of the reasons the community is where it is today.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Jeremy. on May 20, 2022, 06:53:40 pm
Make Argonath great again.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Khm on May 20, 2022, 07:27:59 pm
Last time we hurried on development and releasing scripts, RS5 happened. Development projects go thourgh several phases, the first phase which is phase 0 (the one we're in now with Badandy and CLs collecting info and brainstorming for those that don't know) should be long enough so the development and testing phases take a shorter time. If this critical phase is rushed, terrible consequences will fall upon the project.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 20, 2022, 07:34:27 pm
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Khm on May 20, 2022, 07:38:49 pm
Yeah, that's not true. There was no hard timeline to release RS5 nor was there an issue with player count. RS5 caused majority of the issues with people being forced to start over. Then, further resets hurt everyone's want to continue being active.
You clearly weren't there, the script was incomplete and full of bugs.
About player count, it was dropping rapidly in between october and december 2013 during RS4 itself, again you probably weren't there to witness it.

For the final time, go back to discussing solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server. If you got other suggestions for other divisions take them to their respective threads.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 20, 2022, 07:46:46 pm
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Brian on May 20, 2022, 08:02:20 pm
Big plans, big ideas, "this next one's gonna be the real one forreal, promise". Now while I do believe Andy's intentions are 100% pure and for the good of our future, but can we start seeing some progress? Do you really need WEEKS to review and assess the survey data for MTA:SA? Did hundreds magically show up to chip in with their answers?  :uhm:
Do you expect things to just appear out of thin air? Andy made the survey so that we could get feedback from the players, see their interest and what they'd like.
Now Andy, together with myself and the staff team, but mainly Andy  is working on a draft feature list and vision for the community, so that we can continue involving you and collect more feedback, isn't that exactly what you and Nathan want?

If you want more people to work on the community or projects within the community, maybe its time to start treating others a bit better and actually give them an environment that's enjoyable to be part of. Do you know how demotivating it is as a developer or HQ member when people keep repeating the same nonsense over and over but when you reply to them they just ignore you and repeat the same complaints (That often add nothing to actually improving things).



You need to pick your shit up. It is obvious you keep eyes on these kinds of topics, you moderate them and step in when something goes south. But for the love of Sauron, SHOW us the results of these topics. I've already managed to meet a few of the players involved in these topics IG and played with them for a few hours throughout the last week.
If people actually kept on topic and read what was being said by others and actually responded and discussed things constructively with eachother you wouldn't need us to "show you the results" because we are actively part of the discussion.
But unfortunately in a topic that's aimed solely at the future of the SA server, people feel the need to say how we should close the server, and focus on another server. Or feel the need to keep saying how the server/ community/ platform is dead. Or have fights between one another because people don't agree with each other. And that's even after being asked several times to keep on topic, stop fighting or being explained that the devs and staff choose their own paths and that we or the community does not decide what they should do or say.



Why is Cutt3r, a veteran player, the only one going around advertising the community? Why is the Argonath Facebook page dead? Why haven't we looked for a few twitch streamers to boost interest? What was done in the past three months from Development of each of these servers? There have been 0 changelogs posted for ANY of our servers in 2022. I understand JDC's missing due to RL priorities, but he's been AWOL for ages now.
Because he wants to? He feels he can help improve the server with it and he has the spare time to do so. There's been other people in the past, regular players but also staff that have worked on advertisement for the servers because they enjoy it and don't mind maintaining it.

The Argonath facebook page is also not dead, people have regularly approached me to ask for the ability to moderate the page and post advertisements, it was mainly used by GTA V and GTA IV. Facebook reach isn't that great and a lot of people have stopped using Facebook (regularly), myself included. It tends to have periods of higher activity when certain servers show interest in advertising more.

Advertising using Twitch on SAMP is fairly hard to do, text based RP tends to not bring a lot of traffic (because it requires constant attention to know whats going on.) and Argonath SAMP is also not that viable for it because of its player base. A lot of players, yourself included have unfortunately started using unwelcome terms in the server that could get people that would advertise our servers on Twitch banned. We also set up several Twitch streams for numerous servers over the years but there was not that much interest (both in viewership as well as people streaming the content). We've also had people that just enjoyed streaming and decided to stream their Argonath experience, it's free to stream on Twitch and anyone that wants to can do it.



I'm not nobody's boss to demand things like this, but I'm tired, guys. I love this place, I've not been involved in any other community throughout these years that I stuck around to. Do you even want to keep this going, or are you just waiting for player interest to die out completely so you can do your own thing? If that's so than just say it - resign. You have the killswitch - pull it. But please don't throw sand in our eyes in an attempt to maintain whatever order there is. We're on life support, so either tell us what surgeries you can do, how you've been treating the patient, or simply pull the plug and let the proverbial patient die peacefully.
Did you not read anything we have said? And for the love of god, this is a topic on the future of SA we are literally giving you plans on what we'd like to do in the future, how on earth can you take that as we want to pull the kill switch? You just said you love the community but you want it killed in the same sentence. You're just assuming things even though you have the answers right in front of you, you just don't want to see them.



100% agree. I recently got a new PC and I'm glad I can get GTA:V running properly again, but I have no interest in FiveM as a client, I prefer RageMP. FiveM is currently only popular due to the amount of voice-based roleplay servers on Twitch and Facebook gaming, which I have a strong dislike for. I prefer the text based roleplay that RageMP offers.

Unlike SA:MP/MTA:SA and VC:MP/MTA:VC the compatibility between RageMP and FiveM is not ideal, meaning you can't really be active on both clients. Players play on other servers as well, the majority of the SA:MP roleplay community(All servers, including ours and others) has moved to GTA World, which nets over 500 players on a daily basis. Can you really compare this to the most popular FiveM Roleplay server No Pixel with it's 200 playercap? While there are plans for new RageMP RP servers, there are quite a few of them, compared to the endless amount of FiveM RP servers. It is much easier to shine bright and stand out within a few servers than in a sea of mediocrity.
That's just wrong, FiveM is preferred as a client by many because of its AI implementation, as well as the fact its based off of single player. Voice comms is a great addition for many (especially to medium-serious RP servers that already used voice for things like government communication) and really enhances the RP experience for those that enjoy it. I've also personally had a much more fun experience on NoPixel than that I did on GTA World as the RP just felt a lot more vibrant, but am still a big fan of text based RP and both platforms bring their own appeal. Most of the people that I know that do play on FiveM servers don't actually watch any RP livestreams.

I've also used both RageMP and FiveM at the same time and rarely have had any issues (most came from my own single player modding). NoPixel is also currently focused mainly as a content/ streamer server so can't really be compared to GTA World. Not to forget mentioning that they have several additional servers (Whitelist, public and numerous recently added non-English servers). They're also working on a RedM server.  But now I am just going off topic myself.




And after all of this I'm still not even sure what you and Nathan want. Nathan approached us wanting to improve SAMP, now he wants to close it.
You say you love the community,  but say we should pull the kill-switch.

You both claim we're not transparent, yet we're here answering the questions you have and filling in the community where we can (yes we don't always have the answers ourselves that's why things take time sometimes so we can get you the answers or information you deserve)
You complain about us taking our time so that we can get something presentable, but then you'll also complain when we give you something half assed. Do you want us to be like Nathan where we decide we want to save the server, and then close it down within a 2 week timeframe?
We give you both the chance to help the server or roleplay the things you want to roleplay and then you don't, yet you still point fingers and shout at others.
At some point you'll have to start taking a step back and actually look at what's going on, the answers you've been given and if what you are saying actually makes sense. Yes, we're not perfect and we don't claim to be, we also do not claim the omnipotent. Yet we're still here trying our best, involving the community,  opening dialogue and giving people chances. As well as making sure people still have a place to call Argonath where they can come and play video games with their friends, even if that place might be imperfect.
You don't have to agree with everything we do or say but in the end we're in this together and we'll do much better putting our shared knowledge together than constantly arguing over trivial things that will likely not get things anywhere as in the end most people that reply on this topic will actually want SAMP and Argonath to be a successful and a place we can all enjoy together.


Administrator Comment And as a final note, I am getting tired of the people just in here to say we should shut down all servers and focus on one. For the final time, devs and staff choose which server they want to work on just like you choose with one you want to play on. Shutting down parts of the community will only lower the player and staff counts further and will add nothing positive to the community whatsoever. This topic is aimed at San Andreas (SA:MP/ MTA:SA) and how we can improve the experience for players that want to play on these platforms. Anyone that still feels the need to focus on topics outside of this will have their posts removed from this topic.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Nathan on May 20, 2022, 08:13:25 pm
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Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Badandy on May 20, 2022, 08:25:01 pm
If we're moving to MTA:SA, not really a point to having this thread. Perhaps start a new thread on why the move to MTA:SA makes sense and how it'll benefit the community.

That plan and announcements are in the works. After that is released, discussion can be had under it for asking questions or suggestions. If someone wants to create a topic ahead of time to gather ideas, go ahead and ideas and suggestions under that will be considered.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mac Taylor on May 20, 2022, 08:32:07 pm
Sorry if this may be a little off-topic, I will not go far but just to reply on few points.



I'm sorry, but where are these developers? I understand that there are less than a 100 people still active throughout the entire community, but per the information I was able to find in the V:MP section of forums, it shows that we have 3 developers there. The last update I saw regarding that would be:

Let's get straight to it. It was a bit optimistic to get to an alpha stable build from the ground up in 1 year and at this stage we are unlikely to release to the wider community for at least 6 months.

Which was exactly 6 months ago. Now, the point here is not FiveM, MTA, VC:MP, it is about SA:MP. But this pretty much backs up my initial point - lack of transparency and frequent updates. And empty promises and plans. Now, as a community is built by the players, I believe it is in our hands to get things going. But this lack of any input from Community HQs is offputting.


We can not deny that we have gone inactive sometimes, but we can not agree with this 100%. Last update was sent in Discord two months ago (a leak for an entire future V:MP panel (for IC and OOC purposes)). Yeah, we were not using the forum too much, as we preferred to keep forums for bigger updates/announcements. If you were really interested in V:MP, you would've been in our discord server and would've seen that by yourself.

We have 3 developers, each one of them work on a specific part of the server, that's why it takes too much time. As far as I know we haven't received any request from anyone who meets the requirements of a V:MP developer, though if anyone feels like helping and have the enough experience and knowledge with V:MP languages can reach up to Warren Doyle in his discord PM.

They have their RL responsibilities, one of them passed with a very hard time in RL, and he returned and continued work.
Yes, recently we haven't announced about any leaks or news about the server but currently some of the team are handling their RL stuff, but we haven't abandoned work on the server yet.

If we talk about a vision? We already set a very clear vision for the server and announced before.

If we talk about developers? We have already said if anyone wishes to help, feel free to contact Warren Doyle. But don't expect a very quick decision, it's a matter of trust.

If we talk about transparency with the HQ, as far as I am aware of, we have elaborated and answered all questions asked to us. I strongly advise you to join our discord and feel free to ask about anything. And for more transparency, I have thought of making a topic with a set date for example every Friday where HQ posts weekly any kind of update we achieved. But hey, don't expect it to bring updates every week.

I just can't understand what kind of transparency you guys are talking about, I hope you guys elaborate based on facts of the present not based on past quotes of past leaders.

You guys must understand development is not an easy task to do, I will post screens of the huge plan we have written for V:MP and I bet anyone may have the time to even read the document. We have spent a lot of time in that, and we have already worked on a lot of portions (see the leaks channel to know more).





Why is Cutt3r, a veteran player, the only one going around advertising the community? Why is the Argonath Facebook page dead? Why haven't we looked for a few twitch streamers to boost interest? What was done in the past three months from Development of each of these servers? There have been 0 changelogs posted for ANY of our servers in 2022. I understand JDC's missing due to RL priorities, but he's been AWOL for ages now.


There's a team behind the advertisement of Argonath, Joey, Kawashty, Agent, and of course managers+ of all servers. All of them have access to most of Argonath RPG Social media/advertisement platforms, they did advertise when there were things to attract, go re-check Facebook page, it's not yet dead.

But good why not, I will bring this to the rest of the HQ members and maybe we can officially bring back the AD team and open applications and improve advertisement methods, but you - the players - do your part of job and simply play what you enjoy.



At the end, sorry if it went too much off-topic, but had to reply to clarify about V:MP. I strongly advise you guys to rethink of your posts above and actually write on actual and practical solutions for the server you are interested in playing in. (Prefer to be on topic tho)
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 20, 2022, 10:54:04 pm
We listen to suggestions and based on those suggestions we're going for MTA:SA while taking in the feedback from people who know the platform better, for example JayL and Mario_Rinna. We also took in the feedback from the survey, badandy is working on the topic to make the data easy to read and to (from what I've understood) also provide some plans regarding what kind of server it will be. We also added Thom as a SA:MP moderator recently based on his abilities and possible future prospects that he will work on with the rest of the administration. This is far different approach from "what has been done before".

I'm sorry but Mario has been inactive and I can't even remember the last time I saw JayL online. Why not ask current players who will actually be using the product?

So because Mario has been inactive, he's not allowed to give feedback of the platform that is MTA:SA as a whole? How do you know he won't be using the product? You a seer now? Maybe you should start accepting people's feedback instead of dismissing it. And I never said those two were the only feedback we listen to. We read all your posts, all your ideas, we consider them, we talk about what's good and what's not. Then we let you guys know about it.

Overall, every time you (or a member of HQ) responds, it still paints the same old picture of doing things in a blackbox, operating WITHOUT transparency, and taking weeks to even say that some sort of action plan is in place. All we see from the outside is, "discussions are being held, data is being sifted through", etc, etc.

We're calling for radical transparency, instead, we're getting closed door meetings with a select few. Why are a select few deciding the greater good for all of us?

We told you the day it was decided to go for MTA:SA that it's going to happen. We didn't tell you of the initial testing because badandy was simply testing if it's even possible to do what was first thought of. And now you people know as much as we do. How is that not transparency? What is it that we're hiding from you?

Do you even know what transparent communication is?

Gaming community is not a business even remotely similar to Apple. We do not operate to gain profit. We operate in order to have a place where you can come in, relax and take some time off from the shitshow that is real life.

A lot of the concepts overlap. You have a product with users. You're making significant changes. If your users are unhappy, they will leave. Building a product that nobody wants means you're operating with your head in the sand.

The point of the Apple story is that without adequate leadership, things will fall apart, no matter if it's a community or a large business.

We do have a product, multiple ones. You want to close all of them. Even the ones who people are happy with. We're making changes because changes are necessary because past HQs fucked it up and we're trying to fix what was broken. What you people forget is that we weren't the HQ when this server went to shit. We had no power of any sort. I even remember some specific people, one who even showed up here and edited his comment about me talking how we shouldn't do anything related to SA:MP. Well we tried, we weren't allowed by owners (yes, in our attempt to stop the toxicity before SA:MP lost all it's players we tried to bypass it's leadership and contacted owners with entire rest of leadership of this community) and the result is we're still here trying to do what's right for the community. Where are the people who fucked it?

We're not a dead community, it's just dead based on imaginary standard you try to hold the community to. Yes, we do not have 100+ player server anymore. That means we're dead? No it does not. The community is not one server, it is the people. That's what you clearly don't understand and why you're out here complaining about shit you have no clue of and talk out of your ass just out of despite.

I like the efforts that Cutt3r is doing but it shouldn't be just him. Ever single member of the HQ and every single DL should be participating in the efforts.

Wrong. Who are you to tell people what they should be doing? This community is not what we get paid for. We do what we can with the time we invest in to the community. No more, no less.
You expect everyone else to put in their life in to the "product" as you like to call it, while all you do is run away from any responsibility of your own. We don't owe anyone jackshit. Our effort to fix what other people fucked is more than enough.

Kessu, we need to stop living in the past glory days and admit that the leadership fucked up completely and brought us to the current state. Revival will only happen when you have an exciting product with an active user base. Revival will only happen when we have active leadership who is accountable for their actions, a leadership that moves fast and makes changes quickly in days, not weeks/months. Right now, we have neither, just promises that "we're working on it".

Don't push away those who want to help. At some point, if you keep pushing them, they will just walkaway and never come back.

We are not living in the past glory. Have you been reading anything? We have not taken "months" to make decisions, we make them pretty quickly but y'all need to fucking stop with the unrealistic expectations. We can't conjure up a server from scratch with fully working script that's not a copypaste of some lame release on a forum god knows where. Do you want another RS5 fiasco, or do you want shit done properly? Take your pick. Actually don't, it doesn't matter. We're not going to release half assed shit that RS5 was.



Last time we hurried on development and releasing scripts, RS5 happened. Development projects go thourgh several phases, the first phase which is phase 0 (the one we're in now with Badandy and CLs collecting info and brainstorming for those that don't know) should be long enough so the development and testing phases take a shorter time. If this critical phase is rushed, terrible consequences will fall upon the project.

Yeah, that's not true. There was no hard timeline to release RS5 nor was there an issue with player count. RS5 caused majority of the issues with people being forced to start over. Then, further resets hurt everyone's want to continue being active.

No, there was no timeline to release RS5. Until owners decided it's time. Then they moved hosts, claimed loss of data of few months and forced the HQ at the time to release unfinished and buggy mess. Yes, even I know it was fucked up on release, I played a bit.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 20, 2022, 11:17:55 pm
I'm sorry but Mario has been inactive and I can't even remember the last time I saw JayL online. Why not ask current players who will actually be using the product?
"mArIo HaS bEeN iNaCtIvE"

As I have no official rank in Argonath, I have no obligation to post or log into forum. I was mentioned earlier — I showed up.

Outside of MTA:SA, I'm not "Mario_Rinna" and JayL isn't "JayL" — we have different nicknames in servers we're not admins in. My activity hasn't dropped since 2007; there isn't much left for me to do here on forum, is there? We have our own MTA:SA server we're working on in private, we didn't go on any breaks since MTA:SA shutdown (the whole "I have real-life problems and am AFK because of this" thing is a trait of people who don't have their shit together, which I don't believe applies to me, or JayL, or Patton), and out of respect for Argonath, this is the last time I mention it within Argonath (in this sentence).

There is no focus, no mission.
[citation needed]

Don't believe me? I'll bring up a historical example: Apple
Yes, let's compare a for-profit corporation to volunteer-driven Argonath. This makes sense completely. Totally. There's nothing wrong with this logic. Also, [citation needed].

History doesn't repeat but it certainly does rhyme, no matter the scale.
It's been, what, 10 years, and you're still the same you've always been. Consumerism. Brands. Shiny things. Quoting books rated for teens aged 12+ (https://www.commonsensemedia.org/book-reviews/the-hitchhikers-guide-to-the-galaxy-book-1). Still getting banned in 2021, haha! It's fascinating. History doesn't repeat? It does, look at you.

You want to set one leader in charge of everything, why? Everybody in HQ who voiced their opinion is against it; I suppose others share the same opinion. How will this "leader" lead?

This satisfaction you seek is not going to happen. I understand that reality does not match your ideals, and that is frustrating, but your ideals are unattainable. Happiness comes from within, not from refusing to accept reality in front of you. Even if a perfect server were here, with 500 people in it, you would find some other problem to become unsatisfied about.

Everything the devs wrote above is completely reasonable, and also very very patient, which is really admirable, TBH.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Stefos on May 20, 2022, 11:56:17 pm
Moderator Comment If people continue to get on each other's throats and get out of context, their post will be removed to avoid any further conflicts and non-sense. If it proceeds to get out of hand, the topic will be locked.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Brian on May 21, 2022, 12:08:08 am


I'm sorry but Mario has been inactive and I can't even remember the last time I saw JayL online. Why not ask current players who will actually be using the product?
Many of us have been inactive, that doesn't give us any less of a voice. We don't know who will be playing on the server in X amount of time, or who might come back, or how many people might play because we're not seers.
Mario and JayL gave us feedback we didn't think of before, it caused us to reach out and look in to the MTA:SA platform more which gave us valuable feedback from people outside of Argonath. It also helped us establish a relationship with some of the MTA:SA staff members, which could benefit us in the future. What Mario and JayL provided to us has literally been what we've been asking for, useful feedback without trying to stir up the pot or attacks towards other community members.

Overall, every time you (or a member of HQ) responds, it still paints the same old picture of doing things in a blackbox, operating WITHOUT transparency, and taking weeks to even say that some sort of action plan is in place. All we see from the outside is, "discussions are being held, data is being sifted through", etc, etc.

We're calling for radical transparency, instead, we're getting closed door meetings with a select few. Why are a select few deciding the greater good for all of us?

I am genuinely curious about what we are not being transparent about, what information would you like to be aware of that you do not have right now, what do you think we are hiding from you or the community?

A lot of the concepts overlap. You have a product with users. You're making significant changes. If your users are unhappy, they will leave. Building a product that nobody wants means you're operating with your head in the sand.

Comparing us to Apple, or any business for that matter makes no sense to me at all because we are not a business, we do not have employees, we do not have a "product". We don't exchange anything of value between each other other than our free time. We owe you nothing, you owe us nothing.
We are a non-profit gaming community open for anyone that wishes to abide by our rules.


I like the efforts that Cutt3r is doing but it shouldn't be just him. Ever single member of the HQ and every single DL should be participating in the efforts.
But we do? Advertising isn't my specialty, I don't enjoy it, I'm not good at it, so I don't do it. I'd rather spend my time somewhere where I'd actually have a use case. It's the reason we created an advertisement team in the first place back in the day.


Kessu, we need to stop living in the past glory days and admit that the leadership fucked up completely and brought us to the current state. Revival will only happen when you have an exciting product with an active user base. Revival will only happen when we have active leadership who is accountable for their actions, a leadership that moves fast and makes changes quickly in days, not weeks/months. Right now, we have neither, just promises that "we're working on it".

Don't push away those who want to help. At some point, if you keep pushing them, they will just walkaway and never come back.
Please elaborate for me on how the current members of HQ got us to where we are now, please use details and factual information as I am very curious.
How many hours do you think of when you use the term "active" and please explain what actions HQ should be accountable for.
What kind of changes do you expect to be done in days, do you want dev work done in days, change from SA:MP to MTA:SA in days? Write up a future vision for the SA server in days?

I am also curious about when did we push away those that want to help, please remind yourself that you are the one that decided you didn't want to help out anymore. Is having a discussion with someone pushing them away? Is having a disagreement with someone that? Difference of opinion? Sharing ideas or plans? Because I have never told anyone they were not allowed to help or be part of something.

You keep accusing "leadership" or "HQ" of things, yet I've not seen you elaborate on or provide evidence on what we actually did to screw things up so badly as you seem to claim. Like Mac said, we've had periods of inactivity and we are far from perfect but most of the current HQ members are the ones that have put in a lot of work trying to get things to work and to keep things running, even with limited resources and all the issues around that and ensuring the players have somewhere to play at would they wish to do so.
Quote
When you try to insult me personally, you automatically lost the debate.
You say this yourself yet you keep attacking  the current HQ and leadership, you keep trying to paint them in to a bad picture with no evidence whatsoever just because we don't agree with every point you make or every idea you have. You think that our discussions are personal attacks and you let your personal feelings affect your decision making. You create a false narrative in your head because you think you are in the right because you refuse to see what is in front of you, you ignore what people tell you and the actions of people happening around of you so that you can keep painting yourself as a victim which in turn makes you lash out at others.

Last time we hurried on development and releasing scripts, RS5 happened. Development projects go thourgh several phases, the first phase which is phase 0 (the one we're in now with Badandy and CLs collecting info and brainstorming for those that don't know) should be long enough so the development and testing phases take a shorter time. If this critical phase is rushed, terrible consequences will fall upon the project.

Yeah, that's not true. There was no hard timeline to release RS5 nor was there an issue with player count. RS5 caused majority of the issues with people being forced to start over. Then, further resets hurt everyone's want to continue being active.

Yes it is true, RS5 did have a hard release date set by the owners that's why on my first day on the server I found and reported 30+ bugs and a lot of core features were missing.
Server resets are also healthy for RP game servers, it changes up the dynamic, gives others the chance to actually get on top of things and rewards those that are currently active on the server/ in the community rather than those that hoarded things in the past (Which seems to be something you appear to be supporting from our previous discussions and chats.)
We're not an triple A game, our economy will eventually reach a point of no return, our scripts will change, we will want to offer new features and options which are often hard to do without an economy reset (because if you add something new the rich will instantly be able to buy it, even if its supposed to be an end game item, which in turn bores people because there's nothing to work towards)

I'd also like to inform you of the Survey results on this which shows to me the people who voted for this disagree with you.
(https://i.imgur.com/RJXo8UL.jpeg)

I literally was there and really active in Argonath between fall 2012 to summer 2014. I remember it clearly because it was right before I moved out and started to work full-time in real life. Secondly, HQ said that it was impossible to convert data from flat files to DB but in reality, if the effort was put in, it could have happened. I remember the days before RS4 as well when player's client would crash every 15 minutes or so. Anyway, rehashing that whole bundle isn't worth the effort, but it does single to the same point - inadequate leadership decisions being made.

This was a decision made by the owners, ten years ago, when none of us were leaders...
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Huntsman on May 21, 2022, 07:32:11 pm
I mean.. I prefer MTA:SA over SA:MP, but I feel it would just be more of the same.
I don't think it's going to change anything at all.

I agree with Nathan one hunded percent. We can no longer afford to keep the community fragmented through several, inactive servers. Times have changed, Argo has changed, we have to chose one thing and stick with it.

Argonath could afford to keep several servers back in the day because we had the playerbase to cover them. Now? What we have now is IV:MP, SA:MP, VC:MP, RageMP. Four currently operational servers, and not including the smaller projects like minecraft. And guess what: all are inactive.

Are you guys really that naive that you think opening yet another server for the MTA:SA, which is a different client for the same, antiquated game, going to resolve anything? How exactly do you see it happening? Has the previous experiment with MTA:SA not shown that not that many people are really interested in MTA, and that MTA:SA community does not seem to bring any new players to the server?

Granted, I did disagree with a lot of things on how JayL saw MTA:SA, and probably some of them were the reason why the server did not gain traction, but there was little to no interest from an already small MTA:SA community in yet another server. So the server.. died.

I already told the III:MP folks what I think: while I simply LOVE the idea of roleplaying in GTA III's Liberty City, as it's my favourite rendition of the map, as well as love the LC's atmosphere, and as much as I'd love to see it take off - it's destined to flop. We can't populate the newer, more popular games, and to expect that people are going to actually flock to play GTA III is even more ridiculous. Sorry, my feelings about GTA III are exceptionally warm, but I prefer to remain realistic.

The Argonath as we know it, as we have learned to know it, the one that we all played in 2007-2015 is ALREADY gone. One of the unique aspects of the old Argonath was that it had servers in all GTA games, all with unique playerbases, and their own flavours. SAMP was always geared towards a more serious RP, VC:MP was always more relaxed, and more about banter and competition, IV:MP was somewhere in between. But now? How exactly do you see this happening? The two active players on each server playing them? Do you not think it would be better if everyone from all games just went to one single server and played there?

I mean, as long as Argo insists on staying the "multi-game" community it once could afford to be, any talk about reviving the community is just pointless. Face the facts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


@Kessu, as much as I respect you for what you do, VC:MP has been inactive for the past three months and no-one from the VCMP management has done anything about it. Your stance has been "We are not going to force people to play". Not to mention there has not been much initiative or encouragement from your side either. Even you yourself cannot be arsed to get yourself in the old game whose top manager you are. Don't you think your statements seem ironic in that light?
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mario_Rinna on May 21, 2022, 09:19:57 pm
probably some of them were the reason why the server did not gain traction, but there was little to no interest from an already small MTA:SA community in yet another server. So the server.. died.
The "server" didn't "die", the infrastructure powering it did.

When Argonath-owned MTA:SA host went down to the point that we could not restart it, we decided not to host it on our own server like everybody else; instead, we packed our things and left, continuing to use our skills and experience outside of Argonath. If the owners were around to press a couple buttons, and not absent for huge chucks of time as usual, that wouldn't have happened.

In retrospect, I am extremely grateful that everything happened the way it did.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Mac Taylor on May 22, 2022, 01:24:25 am
....


I understand why you guys ask for a single server focus, but let's think of this from another bigger view. What will happen after the community force a shutdown for all servers and focus on only one for example the V:MP as you guys say?

V:MP will have more developers? Well, why are you guys so sure that other developers have the required knowledge or interest for V:MP development? Or are we going to force them?

V:MP will have more players? Well, when the new server is up, everyone's free to play on the server they have interest in. We don't want to force anyone and we don't want players to play a specific server while they are forced to. People who have real interest and passion to play a server are only the ones who will succeed with it.


As I said before if anyone from the community has the knowledge and the interest to help in development can go ahead and speak up with Doyle. But forcing everyone to focus on a single player will not do anything. Instead, people who are not interested with this server will just prefer to leave the entire community and go search for something they have interests in. Did we gain anything?


This topic is made for those people who are still interested in SA:MP, let it be for them only, they can discuss on things they have a common in between.

If you think the entire community will only revive by X server, go ahead and help in reviving it with logical solutions and opinions. If that's your opinion then go for it. You guys don't see that San Andreas has any future anymore as it's an old game, sure that's your opinion, say it if you were asked (as in the survey for example) and let it be. Let SAMP HQ decide to shut the server down, move to MTA, or do whatever they see good for THEIR players (those who have interest in SAMP as a regular gameplay for them).


TLDR; Pick your favorite server and work to revive it with logical solutions. There's no need to force others to follow your opinion by shutting down their servers, just focus on your favorite one, the one you are ready to play on it by regular.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 22, 2022, 02:34:53 am
@Kessu, as much as I respect you for what you do, VC:MP has been inactive for the past three months and no-one from the VCMP management has done anything about it. Your stance has been "We are not going to force people to play". Not to mention there has not been much initiative or encouragement from your side either. Even you yourself cannot be arsed to get yourself in the old game whose top manager you are. Don't you think your statements seem ironic in that light?
Read what I've said in this topic and stop talking out of your ass.

We're literally working on a new script from scratch, but I guess that's doing nothing. Can't please you no matter what we do.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Huntsman on May 22, 2022, 12:26:45 pm
@Kessu, as much as I respect you for what you do, VC:MP has been inactive for the past three months and no-one from the VCMP management has done anything about it. Your stance has been "We are not going to force people to play". Not to mention there has not been much initiative or encouragement from your side either. Even you yourself cannot be arsed to get yourself in the old game whose top manager you are. Don't you think your statements seem ironic in that light?
Read what I've said in this topic and stop talking out of your ass.

We're literally working on a new script from scratch, but I guess that's doing nothing. Can't please you no matter what we do.

The new server has been worked on for ages now, hasn't it? I do not see how is it a valid argument to put up with general server inactivity to the point where key server related matters are just being neglected. The new script won't do much good if there will be no-one left to play it, no?

I already said I respect you for what you do, but it seems like some of the stuff you guys say here seems to completely conflict with what you do at times. Do not think I don't appreciate it because I do.

....

I understand why you guys ask for a single server focus, but let's think of this from another bigger view. What will happen after the community force a shutdown for all servers and focus on only one for example the V:MP as you guys say?

V:MP will have more developers? Well, why are you guys so sure that other developers have the required knowledge or interest for V:MP development? Or are we going to force them?

V:MP will have more players? Well, when the new server is up, everyone's free to play on the server they have interest in. We don't want to force anyone and we don't want players to play a specific server while they are forced to. People who have real interest and passion to play a server are only the ones who will succeed with it.


As I said before if anyone from the community has the knowledge and the interest to help in development can go ahead and speak up with Doyle. But forcing everyone to focus on a single player will not do anything. Instead, people who are not interested with this server will just prefer to leave the entire community and go search for something they have interests in. Did we gain anything?


This topic is made for those people who are still interested in SA:MP, let it be for them only, they can discuss on things they have a common in between.

If you think the entire community will only revive by X server, go ahead and help in reviving it with logical solutions and opinions. If that's your opinion then go for it. You guys don't see that San Andreas has any future anymore as it's an old game, sure that's your opinion, say it if you were asked (as in the survey for example) and let it be. Let SAMP HQ decide to shut the server down, move to MTA, or do whatever they see good for THEIR players (those who have interest in SAMP as a regular gameplay for them).


TLDR; Pick your favorite server and work to revive it with logical solutions. There's no need to force others to follow your opinion by shutting down their servers, just focus on your favorite one, the one you are ready to play on it by regular.

I never said the servers should be shut down. Obviously Argonath has the resources to keep the running - let them run. What I rather meant is:
1) Players should focus on one server. The 5-10 active players on each individual server getting together to play on one, single server = an active server.
2) Creating any new servers (MTA:SA) at this point is just destined to fail.


People from other servers won't bring in new developers. They will bring in new ideas, new groups. Groups in particular was what was really missing from the legacy server of V:MP. 

Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Kessu on May 22, 2022, 05:39:51 pm
@Kessu, as much as I respect you for what you do, VC:MP has been inactive for the past three months and no-one from the VCMP management has done anything about it. Your stance has been "We are not going to force people to play". Not to mention there has not been much initiative or encouragement from your side either. Even you yourself cannot be arsed to get yourself in the old game whose top manager you are. Don't you think your statements seem ironic in that light?
Read what I've said in this topic and stop talking out of your ass.

We're literally working on a new script from scratch, but I guess that's doing nothing. Can't please you no matter what we do.

The new server has been worked on for ages now, hasn't it? I do not see how is it a valid argument to put up with general server inactivity to the point where key server related matters are just being neglected. The new script won't do much good if there will be no-one left to play it, no?

I already said I respect you for what you do, but it seems like some of the stuff you guys say here seems to completely conflict with what you do at times. Do not think I don't appreciate it because I do.

Wrong. It's very recent that we changed developers.
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Klaus on May 22, 2022, 09:42:01 pm
The new server has been worked on for ages now, hasn't it?
It's been worked on for around 3 months. Hunts, please stop talking about matters you don't know about. The progress may be slow but we rely on volunteers who code for fun and in their own time. We are not, for (a well used) example, Apple Inc. :)
 
I never said the servers should be shut down. Obviously Argonath has the resources to keep the running - let them run. What I rather meant is:
1) Players should focus on one server. The 5-10 active players on each individual server getting together to play on one, single server = an active server.
No I won't play any other game. You can't force people to play where they don't want to. Try to keep this topic about SA:MP, because not all other servers & their players are interested. :uhm: Cheers buddy !
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Darxez on May 22, 2022, 10:25:34 pm
Regardless of the outcome; I will come and pay a visit to see how stuff goes, but also to come and see some people.

I respect the current projects that are ongoing, and do hope they will go well :).
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Sawyer on May 22, 2022, 10:26:11 pm
Regardless of the outcome; I will come and pay a visit to see how stuff goes, but also to come and see some people.

I respect the current projects that are ongoing, and do hope they will go well :).
Baguette! Hope to see you soon!
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: JoshThePenguin on May 23, 2022, 03:19:35 pm
Regardless of the outcome; I will come and pay a visit to see how stuff goes, but also to come and see some people.

I respect the current projects that are ongoing, and do hope they will go well :).

hi
Title: Re: Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server
Post by: Hammer_ on May 23, 2022, 09:13:01 pm
I wanna suggest something. First thing is first, remove all of those inactive group topics that are of no use, and move 'em to archive, specially the toxic ones that think they're all it. We can progress after that :P
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