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Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => World and local news => Topic started by: Reece on July 10, 2012, 01:20:49 am

Title: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Reece on July 10, 2012, 01:20:49 am
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Armed police were last night hunting a gunman who shot dead an off-duty policeman.
Ian Dibell, 41, was blasted in the head at close range when he raced to investigate an incident near his home. Witnesses said shots were being fired wildly by a man chasing two of his neighbours.
He hit one of them in the leg and hit Mr Dibell with another round as the officer ran across the road to help. He died at the scene.
Essex police have named the gunman as Peter Reeve and have told residents of Clacton-on-Sea to stay indoors.

Neighbours said the 64 year old loner and the pair he was pursuing had been locked in a long-running feud over noise and parking.

I saw the guy running out chasing two people out of the building into the street, said one resident. A girl and a guy in their 30s ranout and I could see this man firing potshots at them.
The woman was screaming and as she ran off he took aim at the guy. He fired about three shots  and one caught the man and he went down. He was shouting help, help to the off duty policeman.
Next thing I knew a shot was fired and the policeman was on the floor. I think he was shot in the head but it all happened so quickly.
He was off duty and in jeans at the time it was just a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Eric Long, 80, said he looked out of his living room window to see Reeve holding a firearm.
I heard a bang I had been asleep then heard it. I spent 30 years in the air force so I knew what it was, he added.

I saw him standing with some kind of revolver. He was chasing somebody, firing as he went. I then saw the black man running down the street. He looked like he might have fallen over and he had his phone glued to his ear.

Something just got too much. He had asked for help before this guy lived below him and they clashed.
The way I look at it there was just no way of stopping him it was a build-up of things. Some people get tense and then just eventually explode.
He was very pleasant to speak to but he had certain views on how the world should be he has certain standards.

Armed police raced to Fairlop Close at about 3.30pm yesterday after a flurry of 999 calls.
Mr Dibell, who lived close by in Redbridge Road, was treated in the street by paramedics but died before he could be put into an ambulance.
His girlfriend, Louise Lilley, 40, a police support officer in East Clacton, was being comforted by colleagues and a family liaison officer last night.
Neighbours said Reeve, who came from Cornwall, reappeared in the street two minutes after the shots were fired and sped off in his car.
One resident said he was a nice chap and a very smart man who was known for helping other elderly neighbours.

He said: Ive known him for a long time. He probably has the nicest decorated flat in the whole place.
Sandra Johnson, 45, said: I heard a lot of commotion around half three. I was in my kitchen with my window open so I could hear a lot of noise. But I just thought it was a row.

I just want it to be over. Im a bit scared as I have a 15yearold daughter. Its very quiet here usually and we arent used to this noise so it was a bit of a shock.
A police spokesman described Reeve as 5ft 10in with short greyish hair and wearing jeans and possibly glasses. They warned people not to approach him and to dial 999 if they saw him or any suspicious activity.

A police helicopter and dog teams joined the search as forensic experts combed Fairlop Close and Redbridge Road for clues and erected a gazebo over where Mr Dibell fell.
Speaking last night, Paul McKeever, chairman of the Police Federation, said it was a very sad day indeed.

He added: Our thoughts are with the family and friends of our colleague who has been killed in Essex. Every police officer in the country is thinking of our colleagues in Essex who are hunting the gunman. Mark Smith, chairman of the Essex Police Federation, said: This is a terrible tragedy and our thoughts and prayers are with Pc Ian Dibells family, friends and colleagues at this extremely sad time.
Constable Ian Dibell was a dedicated professional officer who, even though off duty, has paid the ultimate sacrifice for his bravery and selfless actions in trying to protect his local community. This appalling incident highlights the dangers that police officers face every day.

No words can help those closest to Pc Dibell at this terribly distressing time but I hope they will find some comfort in knowing that the loss of this brave man is mourned by the entire police family throughout the United Kingdom.

Ashley Jones, 41, owner of nearby tanning and beauty salon Ultra-Violet, said last night: Ive been here for 18 years and its not a bad place but its definitely got worse over the past two years.
The shooting took place a few miles from Frinton-on-Sea where police marksman Brian Bishop was killed by an armed robber in August 1984.
He died in hospital four months after he was shot while challenging a post office robber.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2171033/Clacton-shooting-Off-duty-PC-shot-dead-man-injured-Clacton-Essex.html#ixzz20AcJMTAY (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2171033/Clacton-shooting-Off-duty-PC-shot-dead-man-injured-Clacton-Essex.html#ixzz20AcJMTAY)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: McGarrett on July 10, 2012, 02:21:17 am
This is tragic. It's horrible to see a police officer off-duty getting killed. It's horrible.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 10, 2012, 02:39:28 am
Thats what happens when you don't give cops guns in a world where guns are so easy to access.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: McGarrett on July 10, 2012, 02:51:11 am
Thats what happens when you don't give cops guns in a world where guns are so easy to access.

USA made a huge mistake. Giving out guns so easily. Police officers in USA wear their gun always, which means criminals also will use guns.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 10, 2012, 03:02:11 am
USA made a huge mistake. Giving out guns so easily. Police officers in USA wear their gun always, which means criminals also will use guns.

It is not hard to get a gun no matter what country you are in. Guns save officers lives not the opposite, had this officer had a gun he could have defended himself.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: McGarrett on July 10, 2012, 03:11:04 am
It is not hard to get a gun no matter what country you are in. Guns save officers lives not the opposite, had this officer had a gun he could have defended himself.

Ok. Let's look at it.

In 2007 in USA, there were 12,129 homicide with firearm.
In 2007 in Norway, there were around 5-20 homicide with firearm.

Do you see the differences? In USA, officers daily wear handguns in a hostler. In Norway, the police officers are prohibited to do so unless it's a shootout. Of course the amount of citizens has a lot to say, but I doubt that the amount of homicide in Norway would be the same as it was in USA.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ness on July 10, 2012, 06:05:24 am
Ok. Let's look at it.

In 2007 in USA, there were 12,129 homicide with firearm.
In 2007 in Norway, there were around 5-20 homicide with firearm.
POPULATION OF NORWAY: APPROXIMATELY 5 MILLION
POPULATION OF USA: APPROXIMATELY 312 MILLION
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 10, 2012, 06:12:10 am
POPULATION OF NORWAY: APPROXIMATELY 5 MILLION
POPULATION OF USA: APPROXIMATELY 312 MILLION

I was about to post this  :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 10, 2012, 10:30:36 am
POPULATION OF NORWAY: APPROXIMATELY 5 MILLION
POPULATION OF USA: APPROXIMATELY 312 MILLION
312 / 5 = 62.4
62.4 * 20 = 1248
Nuff said.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 10, 2012, 10:34:24 am
This is tragic. It's horrible to see a police officer off-duty getting killed. It's horrible.
While tragic, it is evident he made a severe error in judgement.
Being off-duty he relied on the killer recognizing him and remembering he was a police officer, then respecting his profession enough not to shoot. That is a lot to ask from someone who is obviously in a fit of rage.
His first action should have been to call colleagues on the scene. Second to distract the person in a safe manner that did not endager his life.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 10, 2012, 10:38:15 am
had this officer had a gun he could have defended himself.
So you're saying he had time to unholster his gun, make it fire-ready, aim and shoot while the criminal quickly blasted him through the head?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Dolfagr on July 10, 2012, 12:36:55 pm
Getting a weapon is a piece of cake in most countries, and sometimes the price can be ridiculous. The question is what the hell is state doing, instead of stopping the flow of weapons coming from abroad that will minimize crimes, they wait for events like that to happen in order to take action.

This reminds me of two police officers that were killed in my neighbourhood last year, may he rest in peace.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Aksel on July 10, 2012, 12:50:50 pm
Ok. Let's look at it.

In 2007 in USA, there were 12,129 homicide with firearm.
In 2007 in Norway, there were around 5-20 homicide with firearm.


It's because of the financial situation, I guess. Most of the gunshots in the US are fired by poor people, as they have no job or nothing to live for.

In Norway you have no posibility to be poor, unless you really want to.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Sawyer on July 10, 2012, 12:51:44 pm
Well I guess the government should act this time. He is not the first nor the last cop getting killed like that.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Aksel on July 10, 2012, 12:52:48 pm
Well I guess the government should act this time. He is not the first nor the last cop getting killed like that in the USA.

This was in the UK, by the way.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Sawyer on July 10, 2012, 12:56:07 pm
This was in the UK, by the way.
Oh, my bad.  :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Reece on July 10, 2012, 12:57:06 pm
Getting a weapon is a piece of cake in most countries, and sometimes the price can be ridiculous. The question is what the hell is state doing, instead of stopping the flow of weapons coming from abroad that will minimize crimes, they wait for events like that to happen in order to take action.

This reminds me of two police officers that were killed in my neighbourhood last year, may he rest in peace.

Weapons can be attained with a license. We have extremely strict regulations to get a gun legally and the police regularly check the weapons are stored.

In 2010, in England and Wales 138,728 people were certificated to hold firearms and they owned 435,383 weapons (these are people who play shooting sports/member of a shooting club) There were 574,946 shotgun certificates which cover 1.4 million shotguns(these are farmers who use the guns to protect their livestock) and the population estimate for 2010 was 55.2 million, as you can see a relatively small number of people legally own weapons.

It's difficult to smuggle anything in to the country, but of course, as with any country, there will be contraband that does manage to get past the net.

And, unlike most(?) of the US it is not anybody's right to own a gun.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Thomas_A on July 10, 2012, 12:58:02 pm
Theese mad people have nothing else to do than just wave around with their guns and shoot at people, I bet they even dont have a job and find it to be exciting breaking laws.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Reece on July 10, 2012, 01:03:40 pm
Theese mad people have nothing else to do than just wave around with their guns and shoot at people, I bet they even dont have a job and find it to be exciting breaking laws.

The person who shot him is a 64 year old.

(http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2012/7/9/180029/default/v1/untitled-2-1-522x293.jpg)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Roske. on July 10, 2012, 01:13:00 pm
And this is why you should have a fire-arm near by.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Aksel on July 10, 2012, 01:16:34 pm
And this is why you should have a fire-arm near by.

This is exactly why you should NOT have a firearm nearby.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: McGarrett on July 10, 2012, 03:54:43 pm
Even Ronnel calculated it all for us. If Norway had exactly the same amount of citizens as USA got, Norway would have 1200 homicides with hand gun each year. In USA it was 12000. See the differences? It's about how the government want it to be.

In Norway, the police meet criminals with small resistance, you know why? Because police is not allowed to use guns. Those who decides to shoot an unarmed officer must be complete idiots or not think at all.

There are 11000 more people getting killed with a gun in USA than Norway, IF Norway had the same population as USA does. And those who're getting shot with a handgun is USA, is getting shot by a gang-member. In USA, there are even kids who shot their fellow students on their high school. See the point?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 10, 2012, 06:38:31 pm
Untill you own a gun, you have no idea how much safer you feel, even if its a false hope, its still better then nothing. And if some big mean mother hubbard tries tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind, i'm sure as hell not gonna sit there and let him shoot me, at least ill have the chance to take him down first, and if not, hes going down with me  :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 10, 2012, 06:45:16 pm
Untill you own a gun, you have no idea how much safer you feel, even if its a false hope, its still better then nothing. And if some big mean mother hubbard tries tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind, i'm sure as hell not gonna sit there and let him shoot me, at least ill have the chance to take him down first, and if not, hes going down with me  :lol:
And most probably he will take the gun from you, earning him a free gun and getting you killed.
Saving 90% of gun deaths sure does not outweigh the false hope...
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Dolfagr on July 10, 2012, 07:02:36 pm
Guns don't make you feel safe, but powerful..that's why people always screw up each other with them.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Void on July 10, 2012, 08:22:39 pm
Guns don't make you feel safe, but powerful
One of the most intelligent comment in this thread.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: McGarrett on July 10, 2012, 09:38:11 pm
One of the most intelligent comment in this thread.

Indeed
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 10, 2012, 10:37:36 pm
And most probably he will take the gun from you, earning him a free gun and getting you killed.
Saving 90% of gun deaths sure does not outweigh the false hope...

there is a reason you lock your gun in a holster with a clip. and if someone tries to take it from you well its out of the holster, your own fault for letting him get that close XD


But in all seriousness, its about the education. Canada has very strict gun laws, most ownership is used for sport hunting since we do that a lot. But even then, More shootings occur for Park and Game Rangers here then with normal Police Officers. I still feel learning how to use a gun, even if it was for being a cop, is one of the best things I could ever do, for my own protection and my friends/ family.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Aksel on July 10, 2012, 10:52:44 pm
Untill you own a gun, you have no idea how much safer you feel, even if its a false hope, its still better then nothing. And if some big mean mother hubbard tries tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind, i'm sure as hell not gonna sit there and let him shoot me, at least ill have the chance to take him down first, and if not, hes going down with me  :lol:

I feel quite safe right now thank you
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 10, 2012, 11:34:23 pm
I feel quite safe right now thank you

Good, keep living in the sheltered bubble you are currently in. Its best not to become paranoid of the numerous threats against you in your every day life. You would be very surprised to learn how often people become targets for violent crime and you don;t hear about it in the news. i know I was surprised. Work has just shown me the true nature of society so I understand the dangers ;)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 15, 2012, 07:31:16 am
USA made a huge mistake. Giving out guns so easily. Police officers in USA wear their gun always, which means criminals also will use guns.
Violent crimes are higher in the UK than in the USA, you know?

More guns = less crime because everyone knows everyone's packing heat. This is an actual proven fact.  ;)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 15, 2012, 10:36:11 am
Violent crimes are higher in the UK than in the USA, you know?

More guns = less crime because everyone knows everyone's packing heat. This is an actual proven fact.  ;)
Show the proof.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 15, 2012, 10:47:59 am
Show the proof.

I can't give you any written statistics, but from experience and discussion with cops who work the street, If a person is known to own a gun (Up here for hunting) and they live in a high crime area, they are victims of home related crimes much less frequently. Now, this does not mean the crime rate is any lower, since it just means criminals avoid homes where the owner is known to have a weapon. But it does prevent the individual with the gun from being the victim. This is known also from criminal testimonies. Now, the crime that is prevented is usually break and enters and burglary and owners of guns are not known to have any lower rate of violent crime / domestic calls although these are very un-common to begin with.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 15, 2012, 07:27:40 pm
Show the proof.
http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm (http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts)
Many many more guns are used for crime and not for illegal activities.

For those anti-gun, read this and perhaps it will show you they ain't to bad. :)

http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm (http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm)

For proof of the UK violent crime / gun crime.

"* Gun-free England not such a utopia after all. According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.18 And according to a United Nations study, British citizens are more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States. The 2000 report shows that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States.19"


(source: http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm (http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm))
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 15, 2012, 07:46:04 pm
None of that is proof, all are biased texts from gun-happy organisations.
You can not provide statistics, because if you would compare them they would be very against your statements. Just as Safetymoose showed the number of gun deaths in the US is 10x as high as in Norway, even corrected for population. And that in the year Breivik shot 69 people....
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 15, 2012, 08:49:14 pm
None of that is proof, all are biased texts from gun-happy organisations.
You can not provide statistics, because if you would compare them they would be very against your statements. Just as Safetymoose showed the number of gun deaths in the US is 10x as high as in Norway, even corrected for population. And that in the year Breivik shot 69 people....
Google Kennesaw, Georgia and you'll find that the town did in fact place a law saying every head of the household needs to own a gun and ammo. Crimes DID drop in that town and they crime rate is still low today.

Simply because we have idiot ''gangsters'' who think they're cool. Guns are used 80 times more for self defense then crime. (2004)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 15, 2012, 09:08:57 pm
Google Kennesaw, Georgia and you'll find that the town did in fact place a law saying every head of the household needs to own a gun and ammo. Crimes DID drop in that town and they crime rate is still low today.

Simply because we have idiot ''gangsters'' who think they're cool. Guns are used 80 times more for self defense then crime. (2004)
I am askig you to show comparative statistics between the USA and Europe where there are strict gun laws, not some inbred town of 5 cows and a horse.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 15, 2012, 09:30:33 pm
not some inbred town of 5 cows and a horse.
Go to Kennesaw and tell them that.  :rofl:

I am askig you to show comparative statistics between the USA and Europe where there are strict gun laws, not some inbred town of 5 cows and a horse.
You may have seen comparisons of some European country's homicide figures vs those in the USA .

These comparisons are used by some to suggest we would be much safer were we to give up our second amendment right to firearm ownership, thus only governments would have guns, as in most countrys in Europe.


Murder Rate Europe vs. United States

There were 15,533 murders in the US in 1999.
At his rate, it would take The USA well over 1797 years to equal only the number of
government perpetrated murders in Western Europe in the 20th Century. Homicides by individuals in Europe not included.
If you throw in Eastern Europe, it would take well over 5829 of our murderous years to equal what
happened in 100 years of European "living".

There is an amazing corrolation between gun control and genocide. Interesting eh?

Genocides of less than one million victims are NOT included in these figures. Europe had many genocides of less than one million during the twentieth century. Soldiers killed in wars are NOT included in these figures. Europe has suffered much war during the twentieth century.

Some various twentieth century genocides of Europe, East and West.

The Armenian Genocide (1890 - 1923). The Assyrian Genocide (1910 - 1923). The Hellenes [Greeks] of Thrace, Asia Minor and Pontus Genocide (1915 - 1925). The Ukrainian Forced-Famine (Great Famine) (1932 - 1933). The Jewish Holocaust (1933 - 1945). The Roma or Gypsy Genocide (1933 - 1945). The Jehovah's Witnesses Genocide in Nazi Germany (1933 - 1945). Homosexual Genocide in Nazi Germany (1933 - 1945). Yugoslavs (Primarily of Serbs, but also Romany [Gypsies] and Jews, by Croatians) Nazi-Occupied Europe (1938 - 1945). Yugoslavs (Primarily of Serbs by Albanians in Southern Serbia and Kosovo)Nazi-Occupied Europe (1938 - 1945).Russians, Ukrainians, Jews and Other Residents of the USSR.Nazi-Occupied Europe (1938 - 1945). Poles (by German or Ukrainian Insurgents)Nazi-Occupied Europe (1938 - 1945). Victims of Genocide or Genocide-Like Activities in Soviet-Occupied Europe and in the USSR (1939 - 1991). Ukrainians.Soviet-Occupied Europe and in the USSR (1939 - 1991). Meskhetian Turks. Soviet-Occupied Europe and in the USSR (1939 - 1991). Crimean Tatars.Soviet-Occupied Europe and in the USSR (1939 - 1991). Baltic Peoples (Estonians, Latvians, and lithuanians).Soviet-Occupied Europe and in the USSR (1939 - 1991). Volga Germans.Soviet-Occupied Europe and in the USSR (1939 - 1991). Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh, Nakhichevan, and Azerbaijan by Azeris, and Azeris in Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia by Armenians [ca. 1900-2001 AD - These Ethnic Cleansings predated, were concurrent with, and postdated these people's and republics' membership in the USSR] Other peoples, including Kalmyks, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, and Karachai.Soviet-Occupied Europe and in the USSR (1939 - 1991). Victims of Other Genocides (Includes "Ethnic Cleansing"). Turks or Other Muslims from Newly Independent Countries Formerly Part of the Ottoman Empire.(PostWWI) Germans in Poland, East Prussia, and Czechoslovakia (Sudetenland).(PostWWII)Hungarians in Transcarpathia.(1890 - 2000) Karelians and Finns from Former Finnish Karelia.(1890 - 2000) Italians and Others by Titoists in Trieste, Istria, Dalmatia (1945-194?) Bosnian-Muslims, Serbs, and Croats in Bosnia (and adjacent areas of Croatia and Serbia) [Serbs against Bosnian-Muslims and Croats; Croats against Serbs and Bosnian-Muslims; and Bosnian-Muslims against Serbs and Croats]. (1890 - 2000) Albanians in Kosovo by Serbs.(1890 - 2000) Serbs and Roma in Kosovo by Albanians(1890 - 2000) Chechens in the Chechen Republic of the Russian Federation.(Now) Georgians in the Abkhazian Republic of Georgia(1890 - 2000) Abhazians in Georgia.(1890 - 2000)


http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#Total (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#Total)

http://www.unaids.org/highband/document/epidemio/june98/index.html (http://www.unaids.org/highband/document/epidemio/june98/index.html)

http://www.lib.vt.edu/subjects/slav/genocide.html (http://www.lib.vt.edu/subjects/slav/genocide.html)

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/dbg.chap2. (http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/dbg.chap2.)

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/20th.htm (http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/20th.htm)

http://www.jpfo.org/genocide.htm (http://www.jpfo.org/genocide.htm)

http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Crime/lethal.htm#fn159 (http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Crime/lethal.htm#fn159)

Not sure if that's what you're asking for or not.


Side note, most crimes are committed with illegal weapons, so tougher gun laws will have very little effect and will only raise crime. It is up to law abiding citizens who have legal guns to do their part and stop crime like that.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/10/john-lott-america-gun-ban-murders-multiple-victim-public-shootings-europe/ (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/10/john-lott-america-gun-ban-murders-multiple-victim-public-shootings-europe/)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 15, 2012, 10:44:20 pm
I am askig you to show comparative statistics between the USA and Europe where there are strict gun laws, not some inbred town of 5 cows and a horse.

wow man, no need for the insults. I'm sure if I had said something similar I would have been forum warned again, lead by example man. Just because some of us own guns does not suddenly make us inbred rednecks.....   :neutral:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 16, 2012, 02:40:13 am
Thats what happens when you don't give cops guns in a world where guns are so easy to access.
Guns are near impossible to get in the UK (and parts of Ireland) without being part of an organised gang, thats one of the reasons police over here don't carry guns, another thing, a couple of years ago police were actually asked if they wanted guns, %80 of them said no because they wanted to maintain their classic British police appeal (Bobby appeal), when armed police are needed, fully trained ones turn up, not just every trigger happy moron like some of those you see in the US. :redface:

Like someones already said, every moron in America can get a gun by simply clicking their fingers..
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 03:28:16 am
Guns are near impossible to get in the UK (and parts of Ireland) without being part of an organised gang, thats one of the reasons police over here don't carry guns, another thing, a couple of years ago police were actually asked if they wanted guns, %80 of them said no because they wanted to maintain their classic British police appeal (Bobby appeal), when armed police are needed, fully trained ones turn up, not just every trigger happy moron like some of those you see in the US. :redface:

Like someones already said, every moron in America can get a gun by simply clicking their fingers..

Its a lot easier to get guns in the UK then you say it is. You don't need to be in a gang to get a gun. trust me, Here in Canada we have just as strict gun laws as you do and we know how easy it is for a person to get an illegal weapon.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 10:23:27 am
wow man, no need for the insults. I'm sure if I had said something similar I would have been forum warned again, lead by example man. Just because some of us own guns does not suddenly make us inbred rednecks.....   :neutral:
I was referring to the town, not to the person. You want to state that that town in Georgia is anything more?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 10:26:22 am
I was referring to the town, not to the person. You want to state that that town in Georgia is anything more?

So its now OK to insult people based on where they live? Cool, thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 10:26:58 am

You may have seen comparisons of some European country's homicide figures vs those in the USA .


So its clear that you have to resort to very strange methods to defend. Perhaps we will count every death the US army has caused in your camp? That would certainly change the numbers.....

Guns were useful when the law was written. But times change and now they have become a burden.
Europe in general (yes including Eastern) has understood this and changed the laws accordingly.
USA is still stuck in laws that were outdated 60 years ago, because people seem to think their gun is as important as that other part that shoots something, and consider it equal.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 10:27:41 am
So its now OK to insult people based on where they live? Cool, thanks for the heads up.
I gave a proper description of the town, been there.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 10:29:12 am
I gave a proper description of the town, been there.

Sure you have.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 10:34:56 am
Sure you have.
Indeed. Visited the Super Show in Atlanta, and as the taxi driver lost his way, came through it.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 10:36:43 am
Indeed. Visited the Super Show in Atlanta, and as the taxi driver lost his way, came through it.

ill have to remember this excuse the next time I get forum banned for making a negative comment about a certain place.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 10:46:14 am
ill have to remember this excuse the next time I get forum banned for making a negative comment about a certain place.
I am telling the truth, you would lie. That is the difference.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 10:48:18 am
I am telling the truth, you would lie. That is the difference.
Implying you could prove if I have or have not visited a certain place. Just as its incredibly convenient of you to say you have visited a place without the ability for anyone to disprove it.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 10:51:48 am
Implying you could prove if I have or have not visited a certain place. Just as its incredibly convenient of you to say you have visited a place without the ability for anyone to disprove it.
If the place would have been in Texas I would not have been able to comment on it.
Truth is hard to accept for you, just as that a gun is bad for people.
Now return to topic.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 11:02:46 am
Guns are just like cops. People only focus on the bad stories and then judge everything based on the very few bad cases over the many, many good cases where they save lives.

Guns slow down the property crime rate (especially burglaries). The chart shows the handgun supply in America to the property crime rate.

(http://reflow.scribd.com/5ziagi968013jdju/images/image-4.jpg)


60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.
Source: Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986



Less than 1% of firearms will ever be used in the commission of a crime.
Source: FBI Uniform Crime Statistics
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 11:06:04 am
Guns are just like cops. People only focus on the bad stories and then judge everything based on the very few bad cases over the many, many good cases where they save lives.

Guns slow down the property crime rate (especially burglaries). The chart shows the handgun supply in America to the property crime rate.

(http://reflow.scribd.com/5ziagi968013jdju/images/image-4.jpg)


60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.
Source: Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986

With a similar chart you can prove that handgun supply effects Global warming.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 11:11:06 am
You could say that about any graph then, so if your trying to make the argument now that graphs should not be used for any stat comparison, you have bigger issues then gun control.


A survey of felons revealed the following:
74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
victim than they are about running into the police."

Source: The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 11:22:27 am
You could say that about any graph then, so if your trying to make the argument now that graphs should not be used for any stat comparison, you have bigger issues then gun control.


A survey of felons revealed the following:
74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
victim than they are about running into the police."

Source: The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice

Nothing strange, as criminals wish to live and not get caught.
Is there any research that shows these percentages have changed over time?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 11:26:45 am
Nothing strange, as criminals wish to live and not get caught.
Is there any research that shows these percentages have changed over time?

I would get you a graph but you would just pull another global warming comment on it im sure.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 11:31:02 am
I would get you a graph but you would just pull another global warming comment on it im sure.
Just consider this:
60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.
Source: Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter Rossi, Aldine, 1986
A survey of felons revealed the following:
74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
victim than they are about running into the police."
Source: The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice

What would happen in one year that could cause such an incredible change in statistical evidence?

Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 11:35:41 am
Just consider this:What would happen in one year that could cause such an incredible change in statistical evidence?

The first statistic is from a poll on convicted felons for any crime, the second is a poll that focuses on only criminals known to take part in break and enters and burglaries.

They are two completely different statistics that you are confusing yourself with.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 11:38:41 am
The first statistic is from a poll on convicted felons for any crime, the second is a poll that focuses on only criminals known to take part in break and enters and burglaries.

They are two completely different statistics that you are confusing yourself with.
I am not confused, I just show you that you are misusing statistics to make a point you can not hold.
As for the change in these statistincs over time, I am waiting for your data...
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 11:45:26 am
I am not confused, I just show you that you are misusing statistics to make a point you can not hold.
As for the change in these statistincs over time, I am waiting for your data...

How is it a miss use? They are tow completely different statistics. One is focused on thieves, the other is all criminals. The point the second stats makes is that burglaries are prevented by guns. The first is a similar question directed to the mass of criminals instead of one particular type. Stop trying to make it look like im the one whos confused when you clearly can;t tell the difference between two fucking statistics.

Im not going to keep throwing solid, hard facts at you only for you to try and turn the argument in a direction that makes me look wrong simply because you have no clean rebuttal and can't understand the facts provided.

Going to sleep, almost 6 AM, Ill pick this up when I wake up if you decide to actual understand the difference between two different polls on two different demographics.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 11:51:16 am
How is it a miss use? They are tow completely different statistics. One is focused on thieves, the other is all criminals. The point the second stats makes is that burglaries are prevented by guns. The first is a similar question directed to the mass of criminals instead of one particular type. Stop trying to make it look like im the one whos confused when you clearly can;t tell the difference between two f**king statistics.

Im not going to keep throwing solid, hard facts at you only for you to try and turn the argument in a direction that makes me look wrong simply because you have no clean rebuttal and can't understand the facts provided.

Going to sleep, almost 6 AM, Ill pick this up when I wake up if you decide to actual understand the difference between two different polls on two different demographics.
You simply have not facts to throw at me, which is why you pretend not to want to.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: McGarrett on July 16, 2012, 11:54:05 am
You guys still discussion it?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 01:27:58 pm
Guns slow down the property crime rate (especially burglaries). The chart shows the handgun supply in America to the property crime rate.
Your graph is of property crime, which includes a lot of different type.
Now lets see this graph in comparison.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg/350px-Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg.png)
Data is based on the same survey, but with burglary statistics shown individual.
Seems guns are better to stop larceny as burglary....
Here another nice statistic that shows something different...
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1853/populationfirearmsdeath.jpg)


Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 16, 2012, 03:30:01 pm
Its a lot easier to get guns in the UK then you say it is. You don't need to be in a gang to get a gun. trust me, Here in Canada we have just as strict gun laws as you do and we know how easy it is for a person to get an illegal weapon.
Come to the UK and try to get hold of a gun then, you'll either spend a long time trying or get arrested in the act.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 08:28:42 pm
Come to the UK and try to get hold of a gun then, you'll either spend a long time trying or get arrested in the act.

Keep living in your sheltered little world if you honestly think its that hard to get a gun.

You simply have not facts to throw at me, which is why you pretend not to want to.

Even when I explain the difference to you your still don't understand? Wow, your either playing some sort of game or your a complete idiot even when presented with two completely different stats, you play the retards game of saying they are the same haha, man I have met some stupid people in my life but that takes the cake. Here, if you have the mental ability to read a paper thats this long, give it a go, if not, at least this time don't give me the "Hur dur I dont understand so ill try and make it look like the other persons wrong to hide my stupidity" card.

http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-print.pdf (http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-print.pdf)

Everything in that is sourced.


Now, lets try this the childrens way? I'm sure you like games? lets do some "What If" situations shall we?

(http://chanarchive.org/content/2_v/107505700/1314004439157s.jpg)

*Boom* *Boom* *Boom*

A Man has just broken in to your families home at night with a gun. He has the intent to harm your wife, harm your children and he does not give a shit about you. What do you do?





Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 16, 2012, 08:32:39 pm
Kennesaw, GA. A town of 4 cows and horse. Yet it has 30,000 people. Almost the same size as my town near one of the biggest cities in the US. ohohohohohoho

Gun haters will be haters, they will be the first to die when someone breaks into their home with a gun while Safetymoose and I will chill with some beers in our nice, not broken into homes.  :cool:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 08:37:49 pm
Kennesaw, GA. A town of 4 cows and horse. Yet it has 30,000 people. Almost the same size as my town near one of the biggest cities in the US. ohohohohohoho

Gun haters will be haters, they will be the first to die when someone breaks into their home with a gun while Safetymoose and I will chill with some beers in our nice, not broken into homes.  :cool:

Gandalf just tries to be all knowing and look like some sort of leader but can;t even handle solid facts being presented to him so he gets all butt hurt and tries to make the other person look wrong in a desperate attempt to make himself look smart. I can't wait for him to answer my question above. What is he going to do? use his magic on a rapist in his home  :D
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 16, 2012, 08:45:40 pm
I gave a proper description of the town, been there.
I drove through Russia once, full of drunken idiots standing around a dancing bear. But of course, I can totally say this because I drove through this town once.


Lead by example.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Pandalink on July 16, 2012, 09:17:14 pm
A Man has just broken in to your families home at night with a gun. He has the intent to harm your wife, harm your children and he does not give a shit about you. What do you do?
That's a very unlikely situation, since I live in the UK and thus there's going to be fuck all people with a gun excluding organised criminals. More likely a guy with a bat or a knife.

If I lived in the US I would own, maintain correctly, and practice regularly with, a gun. In that situation I would use it.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Abraham on July 16, 2012, 09:34:00 pm
Safetymoose, who do you think sells the guns to the common criminal? I can tell you now it's not the russian mafia :)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 09:37:39 pm
Keep living in your sheltered little world if you honestly think its that hard to get a gun.

Even when I explain the difference to you your still don't understand? Wow, your either playing some sort of game or your a complete idiot even when presented with two completely different stats, you play the retards game of saying they are the same haha, man I have met some stupid people in my life but that takes the cake. Here, if you have the mental ability to read a paper thats this long, give it a go, if not, at least this time don't give me the "Hur dur I dont understand so ill try and make it look like the other persons wrong to hide my stupidity" card.

http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-print.pdf (http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-print.pdf)

Everything in that is sourced.


Now, lets try this the childrens way? I'm sure you like games? lets do some "What If" situations shall we?

(http://chanarchive.org/content/2_v/107505700/1314004439157s.jpg)

*Boom* *Boom* *Boom*

A Man has just broken in to your families home at night with a gun. He has the intent to harm your wife, harm your children and he does not give a shit about you. What do you do?
I showed to a very different staristic, you ignore it.
I asked you to show correct statistics, you only come with some hot air telling that I do not read what you write.
Then you link to a PDF of a website sponsored by the gun industry... sure they will tell they are not correct.....
Calling me stupid is only reflecting on yourself, especially when you can not provide what I asked.

As for that situation, I would tell you but you would not believe me anyway.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 09:39:05 pm
Kennesaw, GA. A town of 4 cows and horse. Yet it has 30,000 people. Almost the same size as my town near one of the biggest cities in the US. ohohohohohoho

Gun haters will be haters, they will be the first to die when someone breaks into their home with a gun while Safetymoose and I will chill with some beers in our nice, not broken into homes.  :cool:
That it is near the city does not mean its big itself. You are sitting near an intelligent person and what are you?
And when someone breaks in to your house you will be shot with your own gun and be happy about it.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 09:39:39 pm
Gandalf just tries to be all knowing and look like some sort of leader but can;t even handle solid facts being presented to him so he gets all butt hurt and tries to make the other person look wrong in a desperate attempt to make himself look smart. I can't wait for him to answer my question above. What is he going to do? use his magic on a rapist in his home  :D
What facts did you present that I asked you to? ZERO.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 16, 2012, 09:40:54 pm
I drove through Russia once, full of drunken idiots standing around a dancing bear. But of course, I can totally say this because I drove through this town once.


Lead by example.
Correct description.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 16, 2012, 09:46:53 pm


As for that situation, I would tell you but you would not believe me anyway.

Cheap Excuse, Answer the question


And as for the document being made by the gun industry. If you had any sense to read it you would see every statistic is properly referenced. So stop playing the fucking games and answer the question instead of trying to bullshit your way out of it.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Kizzu on July 16, 2012, 10:08:43 pm
Big fuss about guns and all, but if you ever killed someone you would probably be better dead...ask your country's Army(U.S.), where there is more deaths by suicide then by enemy fire...

http://theconversation.edu.au/the-other-enemy-suicide-now-the-biggest-killer-of-american-troops-7659 (http://theconversation.edu.au/the-other-enemy-suicide-now-the-biggest-killer-of-american-troops-7659)
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=9162 (http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=9162)

I have talked to a lot of American gun-lovers, and all of them think that they are some kind of Hollywood action movie characters and think that pushing the trigger against someone is like a walk in the park. It isn't, unless you're a Psychopath.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 16, 2012, 11:55:35 pm
That it is near the city does not mean its big itself. You are sitting near an intelligent person and what are you?
And when someone breaks in to your house you will be shot with your own gun and be happy about it.
Only if you're an idiot who knows nothing about guns.


Big fuss about guns and all, but if you ever killed someone you would probably be better dead...ask your country's Army(U.S.), where there is more deaths by suicide then by enemy fire...

http://theconversation.edu.au/the-other-enemy-suicide-now-the-biggest-killer-of-american-troops-7659 (http://theconversation.edu.au/the-other-enemy-suicide-now-the-biggest-killer-of-american-troops-7659)
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=9162 (http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=9162)

I have talked to a lot of American gun-lovers, and all of them think that they are some kind of Hollywood action movie characters and think that pushing the trigger against someone is like a walk in the park. It isn't, unless you're a Psychopath.
It's never fun to have to shoot someone, unless like you said, you're a psychopath, but you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself, your family, or your friends.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 12:16:57 am
It's never fun to have to shoot someone, unless like you said, you're a psychopath, but you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself, your family, or your friends.
When was the last time you killed someone in real life?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 17, 2012, 12:21:20 am
When was the last time you killed someone in real life?
He killed a fly....
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 17, 2012, 01:00:54 am
When was the last time you killed someone in real life?
Never? But you still haven't answered Safetymoose's question, have you?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 17, 2012, 01:56:41 am
Thats what happens when you don't give cops guns in a world where guns are so easy to access.
That's what happens when you try to restrict weapons and fail to. If everyone is packing, cops should too. There are actually less shootings when everyone has a gun because no one is going to risk shooting someone else when they know they are likely armed. This works even better when everyone is properly trained on using them too.

My heart goes out to the officer's family. May he rest in peace.

Another brother in blue fallen after crossing the Thin, Blue Line...
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 02:21:02 am
When was the last time you killed someone in real life?

Drawing a weapon on someone or even shooting them does not mean they die. You seem to have the mindset that all guns do are kill people. Yes, there intended purpose is as a weapon to cause harm, but you can't seem to see past the violence and understand the self defence aspect. What, if this was the 1700 would you be against people owning swords? I have never had to kill someone, simply drawing a weapon on them makes them stop which is why guns are needed to keep the peace and to defend ones family and property.

Now, Go ahead and answer my question, or you can keep avoiding it and continue proving my point that you know jack shit about this topic.

Post Merge: July 17, 2012, 02:22:10 am
That's what happens when you try to restrict weapons and fail to. If everyone is packing, cops should too. There are actually less shootings when everyone has a gun because no one is going to risk shooting someone else when they know they are likely armed. This works even better when everyone is properly trained on using them too.

My heart goes out to the officer's family. May he rest in peace.

Another brother in blue fallen after crossing the Thin, Blue Line...

This is the point every realistic person in this thread is trying to point out, but certain people here seem to be confused and think every gun owner is a trigger happy redneck. Morons.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Kizzu on July 17, 2012, 02:58:54 am
I am kind of in the middle when it comes to the right to own a gun...I defend the right to, but I think it should be strictly controlled. Guns should only be sold in specific places and so should bullets, not in Walmart or a 24/7. And it should require a license. If these requirements aren't met, you can end up with catastrophes such as the Columbine Massacre, where two kids could buy their own bullets in a 24/7 shop...
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Pandalink on July 17, 2012, 03:05:48 am
Drawing a weapon on someone or even shooting them does not mean they die.
To be fair if you shoot someone, you shoot to kill. If you don't kill them then whatever, but there's no "safe disabling shot" and in actual fact shooting someone in the leg or something might suggest to police/courts that you had a lot of time to consider your actions, so you're probably better off just aiming at the chest and shooting to kill.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 03:07:39 am
To be fair if you shoot someone, you shoot to kill. If you don't kill them then whatever, but there's no "safe disabling shot" and in actual fact shooting someone in the leg or something might suggest to police/courts that you had a lot of time to consider your actions, so you're probably better off just aiming at the chest and shooting to kill.

You obviously have no idea how cops are trained over here.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 17, 2012, 03:13:31 am
You obviously have no idea how cops are trained over here.
Actually he is right to a degree on the first part of his post. If you are forced to draw your weapon and fire, you're shooting to take the subject down. You're taught to not hesitate in these situations once firing as an officer. Just plainly drawing your weapon is a different story, however.

@Panda specifically: In the event of a non-lethal shot being taken, it would be argued that the officer should have instead used a lesser-lethal weapon, rather than a firearm, if they were specifically only attempting to disable the suspect without the intent to kill.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 03:15:59 am
Actually he is right to a degree on the first part of his post. If you are forced to draw your weapon and fire, you're shooting to take the subject down. You're taught to not hesitate in these situations once firing as an officer. Just plainly drawing your weapon is a different story, however.

@Panda specifically: In the event of a non-lethal shot being taken, it would be argued that the officer should have instead used a lesser-lethal weapon, rather than a firearm, if they were specifically only attempting to disable the suspect without the intent to kill.

Im talking about drawing your weapon. If Im actually going to pull the trigger then we do it with the full intention of taking a life.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 17, 2012, 03:20:07 am
Im talking about drawing your weapon. If Im actually going to pull the trigger then we do it with the full intention of taking a life.
Yes, that would be correct then.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Pandalink on July 17, 2012, 05:04:09 am
@Panda specifically: In the event of a non-lethal shot being taken, it would be argued that the officer should have instead used a lesser-lethal weapon, rather than a firearm, if they were specifically only attempting to disable the suspect without the intent to kill.
Yea, but in my case I was thinking about a civilian in the home, although now I realise that I didn't actually point that out. :redface:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Squeak on July 17, 2012, 07:29:45 am
All of the proponents for guns in this thread probably have never witnessed gun violence. I'm not saying a gun used for home defense is a bad idea, but when you realize how stupidly easy it is for anyone to obtain a firearm you realize that there is a huge risk and danger involved.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 09:02:15 am
Drawing a weapon on someone or even shooting them does not mean they die. You seem to have the mindset that all guns do are kill people. Yes, there intended purpose is as a weapon to cause harm, but you can't seem to see past the violence and understand the self defence aspect. What, if this was the 1700 would you be against people owning swords? I have never had to kill someone, simply drawing a weapon on them makes them stop which is why guns are needed to keep the peace and to defend ones family and property.

Now, Go ahead and answer my question, or you can keep avoiding it and continue proving my point that you know jack shit about this topic.

Post Merge: July 17, 2012, 02:22:10 am
This is the point every realistic person in this thread is trying to point out, but certain people here seem to be confused and think every gun owner is a trigger happy redneck. Morons.
Wel Mr Trigger Happy Redneck, I will answer the question as soon as you will provide me with what I asked. However as I said, you are not going to believe my answer anyway.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 09:03:24 am
Never? But you still haven't answered Safetymoose's question, have you?
So tell me how would you know that if there is a man with a gun standing in your room, you will even be able to get yours and use it?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 09:20:36 am
Wel Mr Trigger Happy Redneck, I will answer the question as soon as you will provide me with what I asked. However as I said, you are not going to believe my answer anyway.

>implying I just have every statistic you want sitting on my desktop.

Do i look like a f**king library? or am I now supposed to go out and find every statistic known to man simply because you ask for it? Now how about you stop avoiding my question with your little excuse of I wont believe you and start talking, maybe even explain why you have such a huge hate towards guns and gun owners? Stop going around in circles and answer the very simple question I provided you. or maybe you don;t know what you would do, maybe your wife and kids would get raped because you failed to act.. not my problem what happens to them in the end though.

Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 17, 2012, 09:23:05 am
So tell me how would you know that if there is a man with a gun standing in your room, you will even be able to get yours and use it?
You should be able to. More than likely, I wouldn't allow someone to get close to my room.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 09:34:51 am
So tell me how would you know that if there is a man with a gun standing in your room, you will even be able to get yours and use it?

What, you think im going to own a gun and not keep it with me?  :rofl:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 09:39:44 am
>implying I just have every statistic you want sitting on my desktop.

Do i look like a f**king library? or am I now supposed to go out and find every statistic known to man simply because you ask for it? Now how about you stop avoiding my question with your little excuse of I wont believe you and start talking, maybe even explain why you have such a huge hate towards guns and gun owners? Stop going around in circles and answer the very simple question I provided you. or maybe you don;t know what you would do, maybe your wife and kids would get raped because you failed to act.. not my problem what happens to them in the end though.
Ok so you admit that there are ZERO statistics that prove guns avoid crime. Thanks you.
As for your question, he would be disarmed and neutralized without the usage of a gun.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 09:40:53 am
You should be able to. More than likely, I wouldn't allow someone to get close to my room.
Muahahaha.... os at might you wake up and there is a guy standing in your room with a gun... and you tell him to wait a second while you get yours from the safe....
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 09:42:05 am
What, you think im going to own a gun and not keep it with me?  :rofl:
So you will let it lying where your kids can find it and pull the trigger on each other by accident. Great.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 09:52:27 am
Ok so you admit that there are ZERO statistics that prove guns avoid crime. Thanks you.

I provided a very nice booklet of referenced statistics relating to guns preventing crime. so why don;t you try again and this time tone down on being a prick?


As for your question, he would be disarmed and neutralized without the usage of a gun.

And how would you do that, throw your pillow at him?  :roll:


Nice to know the owner of this community can't even have a half decent argument without being a child and trying to twist peoples words out of context to make himself look smart.


Post Merge: July 17, 2012, 09:53:57 am
So you will let it lying where your kids can find it and pull the trigger on each other by accident. Great.

You trying to say kids are going to unclip a gun from a holster on my waist without me knowing? Wow your stupid.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mario_Rinna on July 17, 2012, 09:56:46 am
What, you think im going to own a gun and not keep it with me?  :rofl:
Honey, if I walk into your house with my favourite AK, you will be dead before you can shit your pants, even if you sleep with a bazooka.

It doesn't matter, if you have a gun or not, when you are already dead.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 09:58:37 am
Honey, if I walk into your house with my favourite AK, you will be dead before you can shit your pants, even if you sleep with a bazooka.

It doesn't matter, if you have a gun or not, when you are already dead.
Maybe the case, but there is always the chance I hear/ know your coming. if i'm going to die any ways in that one situation what does having or not having a gun really matter?

What a flawed attempt at an argument.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mario_Rinna on July 17, 2012, 10:01:13 am
Maybe the case, but there is always the chance I hear/ know your coming. if i'm going to die any ways in that one situation what does having or not having a gun really matter?

What a flawed attempt at an argument.
The point is that your pew-pew is pointless when you are against someone with skill. And when the wannabe-killer is a retard, you can take him out even without a gun.

And FYI, I have no interest in arguing with you.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 10:02:07 am
I provided a very nice booklet of referenced statistics relating to guns preventing crime. so why don;t you try again and this time tone down on being a prick?
I aksed you:
- proof that gun violence is lower in the USA as in Europe
- statistics on opinions of felons between 1973 and 2000 to match your research.
All you can provide is a booklet by the Gun Industry that does not provide this and the statement you are not a f8cking library.
Further I showed you a graphic that clearly indicated the increase in weapons equals the increase in population, and an increase in gun control showed a clear decrease in violence. You ignored this.

And how would you do that, throw your pillow at him?  :roll:
It would be a better action as to offer my wife while I get my gun from the safe as what would have to be your action.


Nice to know the owner of this community can't even have a half decent argument without being a child and trying to twist peoples words out of context to make himself look smart.
Act like an idiot, get answered as one.


Post Merge: July 17, 2012, 09:53:57 am
You trying to say kids are going to unclip a gun from a holster on my waist without me knowing? Wow your stupid.
You sleep with a holstered gun? your wife will love it.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [Rstar]Paul on July 17, 2012, 10:03:29 am
You sleep with a holstered gun? your wife will love it.

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 10:07:21 am
Act like an idiot, get answered as one.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc185/Strikeninja95/black_guys_laughing.gif)
The same can be said from my side as well

You sleep with a holstered gun? your wife will love it.

Girls who like guns are my kind of girls  :cool:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 10:10:10 am
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc185/Strikeninja95/black_guys_laughing.gif)
The same can be said from my side as well

Girls who like guns are my kind of girls  :cool:
I am not the one trying to hide lack of substance with getting angry and insults.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 17, 2012, 04:49:39 pm
It's usually the countries that have masses of guns and their own civilians that have guns that fail at using them, countries where guns arnt a regular sight means they actually have some control and the forces that do have guns, are more trained and skilled at using them, I don't know why every dick head and hillbilly in the US is allowed guns, they can say its because of a high crime rate or bears in Canadas case all they want but the fact is there wouldn't be as much crime if they could control their civilized and uncivilized citizens which they can't because they've let guns and drugs take over, as for bears leave them the fuck alone you trigger happy morons. ;)

The governments don't rule America, hillbillys and drug dealers do.

This was aimed at the certain person here thats so jammed up his own ass he can't see the truth even if it's right in his face.
 :ps: Go get some of those girls that like guns if they are your type instead of sitting infront of your computer. :D
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 17, 2012, 05:01:29 pm
Girls who like guns are my kind of girls  :cool:
You don't seriously sleep with a gun do you?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 17, 2012, 07:03:37 pm
Muahahaha.... os at might you wake up and there is a guy standing in your room with a gun... and you tell him to wait a second while you get yours from the safe....
A gun for home defense should never be kept in a safe, what's the use of a locked gun?


and i don't believe you've answered safetymoose's question?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 17, 2012, 08:21:12 pm
A gun for home defense should never be kept in a safe, what's the use of a locked gun?


and i don't believe you've answered safetymoose's question?
Don't know what the question was but if your country wasnt such a criminal pit and had a good police organization you wouldn't need guns in your house. :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 17, 2012, 08:31:06 pm
Don't know what the question was but if your country wasnt such a criminal pit and had a good police organization you wouldn't need guns in your house. :lol:

Thats funny coming from someone who lives in the Violent Crime capitol of Europe  :roll:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html)

Post Merge: July 17, 2012, 08:34:21 pm
You don't seriously sleep with a gun do you?

No im Canadian, We can only own hunting rifles and even then its strictly controlled. Im speaking as someone who worked with the police here in regards to my stance on gun ownership and it use for home protection. Even cops in my area of the country are not allowed to take their guns home, i'm merely playing devils advocate against those against gun control since I know a lot of people, including myself, who believe gun should be more freely accessible.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 17, 2012, 10:59:39 pm
Thats funny coming from someone who lives in the Violent Crime capitol of Europe  :roll:
I don't see any violence, there was the London riots but thats as much violence I've seen in a long time, plus you can say the UK is violent but still nobody has guns, and if they do it's illegal, saying that my neighbor 4 doors down has 3 rifles in his house, he used to own a farm but moved into this area, 2 community officers visit his house once every 2 weeks to make sure it's kept completely locked up in a cabinet, IMO DailyMail just over-rated it..
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 17, 2012, 11:21:28 pm
I don't see any violence, there was the London riots but thats as much violence I've seen in a long time, plus you can say the UK is violent but still nobody has guns, and if they do it's illegal, saying that my neighbor 4 doors down has 3 rifles in his house, he used to own a farm but moved into this area, 2 community officers visit his house once every 2 weeks to make sure it's kept completely locked up in a cabinet, IMO DailyMail just over-rated it..
just because you don't see it, don't mean it doesn't exist.
Don't know what the question was but if your country wasnt such a criminal pit and had a good police organization you wouldn't need guns in your house. :lol:
our police force is mighty strong, actually.


so gandalf, someone breaks into your house with full intention of harming your family. do you still believe guns are bad or would you use one?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 11:23:41 pm
A gun for home defense should never be kept in a safe, what's the use of a locked gun?


and i don't believe you've answered safetymoose's question?
If it is not locked you run the risk your kids find it and shoot you or themselves with it by accident.
As far as the question, I answered it, you must be too lazy to read.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 17, 2012, 11:25:50 pm
If it is not locked you run the risk your kids find it and shoot you or themselves with it by accident.
As far as the question, I answered it, you must be too lazy to read.
This is why you properly teach your kids about gun safety. if done correctly and your kids not  some sort of maniac, they'll never touch the guns.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 17, 2012, 11:36:04 pm
This is why you properly teach your kids about gun safety. if done correctly and your kids not  some sort of maniac, they'll never touch the guns.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 18, 2012, 12:10:17 am
This is why you properly teach your kids about gun safety. if done correctly and your kids not  some sort of maniac, they'll never touch the guns.
Bullcrap, you can never eliminate a kid's curiousity.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 18, 2012, 12:20:30 am
Bullcrap, you can never eliminate a kid's curiousity.
Yes you can.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

<-- living proof, right here.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Dolfagr on July 18, 2012, 12:43:52 am
I remember playing with my father's Browning Hi Power when I was about 10. Ofcourse the weapon was always unloaded however I knew how to use it and it's effects. It must be understood that a kid in the age 3-7 may not understand things about safety as they seem complicated, however using a gun nowadays is as much easy as flushing the toilet. The solution would be to yet have a gun, but unloaded, that way you can still intimidate the "potential robber" who tries to hurt your family, and make sure you don't get shot accidentaly by someone who does not know how to use it.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Pandalink on July 18, 2012, 02:21:00 am
that way you can still intimidate the "potential robber" who tries to hurt your family
Or scare him so that he uses his gun to shoot you. Having the gun unloaded is pointless, as you cannot open fire first if the intruder goes to do the same.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Dolfagr on July 18, 2012, 09:39:13 am
Or scare him so that he uses his gun to shoot you. Having the gun unloaded is pointless, as you cannot open fire first if the intruder goes to do the same.

It depends..ofcourse you're not going to run in front of him and aim it..you gotta think carefully, flank him etc. Though most of times you'd scare him, you could also end up having a gun in your head instead, which is uncool.

The point is that the burglar should not be at the first place there with a gun, unless you're some old rich pal who surely has protection (which is really hard to get in Europe, weapon license, firearm etc.), otherwise he'd rather rob a gas station with a gun..
 
That's the main difference between Europe and US, and that's why every burglar in US has a gun, because civilians can buy them easy as buying a computer..
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 18, 2012, 01:17:12 pm
Yes you can.
No, especially not in countries like America where criminal movies dominate.
The kids can try to act like they do with guns in movies = curiousity.
Also don't tell me you never did something your parents did't want you to do like smoking or stealing. Again curiousity.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 18, 2012, 06:46:46 pm
No, especially not in countries like America where criminal movies dominate.
The kids can try to act like they do with guns in movies = curiousity.
Also don't tell me you never did something your parents did't want you to do like smoking or stealing. Again curiousity.

America is not Serbia, I don't think you really have the grounds to say what America is like, and no, I have never done anything as bad as you say I should have and lied to my parents because I respect my parents and law. Saying that all kids watch movies and then want to smoke, steal and use guns is a bold statement I would love to see you back up with facts. Maybe its like that in Serbia but its not like that here.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 18, 2012, 06:57:02 pm
America is not Serbia, I don't think you really have the grounds to say what America is like, and no, I have never done anything as bad as you say I should have and lied to my parents because I respect my parents and law. Saying that all kids watch movies and then want to smoke, steal and use guns is a bold statement I would love to see you back up with facts. Maybe its like that in Serbia but its not like that here.
Another retarded comment from you.
Didn't expect a wise comment though.
If you think that American kids never took a gun or anything out of curiousity you're just downright retarded.
Do you know what happens in every single household in the US and what happens with its guns?
I don't think so.

Also I know that you're obsessed and love Serbia so much that you want to use it in every argument, but here it just proved how stupid you are.
I was talking about how movies influence a kid's curiousity. If you want to merge Serbia in that argument you prove you have nothing to back up your statements.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 18, 2012, 07:11:08 pm
America is not Serbia, I don't think you really have the grounds to say what America is like, and no, I have never done anything as bad as you say I should have and lied to my parents because I respect my parents and law. Saying that all kids watch movies and then want to smoke, steal and use guns is a bold statement I would love to see you back up with facts. Maybe its like that in Serbia but its not like that here.
That is why you are still alive and others not.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 18, 2012, 07:15:49 pm
Ok so you admit that there are ZERO statistics that prove guns avoid crime.
That depends on many factors, but some countries that have it legalized for all to conceal carry without a permit have lower crime rates linked to such, whereas others have high crime rates. There's more to it than just having the guns available too.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 18, 2012, 07:18:52 pm
That depends on many factors, but some countries that have it legalized for all to conceal carry without a permit have lower crime rates linked to such, whereas others have high crime rates. There's more to it than just having the guns available too.
Please show statistics instead of hollow statements.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 18, 2012, 08:09:34 pm
Another retarded comment from you.
Didn't expect a wise comment though.
If you think that American kids never took a gun or anything out of curiousity you're just downright retarded.
Do you know what happens in every single household in the US and what happens with its guns?
I don't think so.

Also I know that you're obsessed and love Serbia so much that you want to use it in every argument, but here it just proved how stupid you are.
I was talking about how movies influence a kid's curiousity. If you want to merge Serbia in that argument you prove you have nothing to back up your statements.

Half the crap you guys post links youth to violence or crime and how its "Normal" for them to do it and all that, any logical person is going to connect the dots when they notice your nationality and how frequent you post things that reference random violence being the norm and it being accepted. Don't shit on me if you can't make that link yourself.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 18, 2012, 08:12:04 pm
just because you don't see it, don't mean it doesn't exist. our police force is mighty strong, actually.
Of course certain people in the UK have guns, like I said my neighbor has 3 farm rifles and 2 community officers visit his house every 2 weeks to make sure they are kept under lock and key, which I bet isnt the kind of thing that happens in the US..
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 18, 2012, 08:17:51 pm
Of course certain people in the UK have guns, like I said my neighbor has 3 farm rifles and 2 community officers visit his house every 2 weeks to make sure they are kept under lock and key, which I bet isnt the kind of thing that happens in the US..
Ever seen "Hot Fuzz?"  :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 18, 2012, 08:35:55 pm
Half the crap you guys post links youth to violence or crime and how its "Normal" for them to do it and all that, any logical person is going to connect the dots when they notice your nationality and how frequent you post things that reference random violence being the norm and it being accepted. Don't shit on me if you can't make that link yourself.
Every country has crime.
If you're saying Canada or America doesn't have crime, wow.
Also do you think that Serbs fight to pass time?
The riots or fights you see are there for a reason.
For example the riots that where organized for Kosovo, this was not for fun. It was to defend holy land.
I strongly disagree with the fact that videos of random violence for fun are being uploaded.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 18, 2012, 08:43:07 pm

Every country has crime.
If you're saying Canada or America doesn't have crime, wow.

Please point out where I said we have no crime

Also do you think that Serbs fight to pass time?
The riots or fights you see are there for a reason.
For example the riots that where organized for Kosovo, this was not for fun. It was to defend holy land.

That is no excuse to cause violence

I strongly disagree with the fact that videos of random violence for fun are being uploaded.

I could disagree as I have seen some rather disturbing things online and even with my own eyes that Serbian people enjoy doing to innocent people that is violent, but I don;t want to get in to an argument about Serbia.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 18, 2012, 09:15:24 pm
Please point out where I said we have no crime

That is no excuse to cause violence

I could disagree as I have seen some rather disturbing things online and even with my own eyes that Serbian people enjoy doing to innocent people that is violent, but I don;t want to get in to an argument about Serbia.
You only speak of Serbian crime.

As for your second point; You don't know what it's like to have holy land attacked and churches burned down.
You are raised in a western country which has no culture.
You don't have to understand, but if you don't know how we feel and why we do it don't shit on us.

As for your third point; These crimes you have seen are also commited in Canada, which brings me back to every country has crime.

Also you say you don't want to argue about Serbia.
How f*cking hypocritical of you.
You were the one shitting on Serbia in the first place.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 18, 2012, 09:51:42 pm
Please show statistics instead of hollow statements.
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636 (http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636)

Ever seen "Hot Fuzz?"  :lol:
One of my most favorite movies ever! :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 18, 2012, 10:11:44 pm

You are raised in a western country which has no culture.

(http://pinkie.ponychan.net/chan/files/src/132505226769.jpg)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 18, 2012, 10:14:08 pm
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636 (http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636)
One of my most favorite movies ever! :lol:
It would be good if the underlying scientific studies could be named....
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 18, 2012, 10:22:33 pm
The trolling and stereotyping really isn't needed in this topic guys...

It would be good if the underlying scientific studies could be named....
For whatever reason, I couldn't find any statistics supporting either side of the argument. All I could come up with was references to that book, and pointless political news topics.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: EliteTerm on July 18, 2012, 10:51:31 pm
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp (http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp)

Good enough?

I also noticed that there are conflicting statistics in different areas saying that places that has gun control noticed a drop in violence, but opposite in other places where it went up instead.

The REAL problem here is that people are very unpredictable. How many times you've heard stories of someone doing violent crimes and have their friends & relatives saying that he/she gets along with everybody?

A firearm is just another tool, but in the wrong hands becomes deadly. If someone performs vehicular manslaughter, should we ban vehicles?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Abraham on July 18, 2012, 11:54:56 pm
If someone performs vehicular manslaughter, should we ban vehicles?
Should've been done a long time ago, especially in America.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 19, 2012, 12:58:55 am
Should've been done a long time ago, especially in America.
You don't own a car, do you? :P
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Abraham on July 19, 2012, 02:20:33 am
You don't own a car, do you? :P
I don't :(

But I was referring to this (http://veggiefitness.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/obesity.jpg) :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on July 19, 2012, 05:08:14 am
Saying America has no culture, is saying the world has no culture. We have probably pretty close to most cultures from all around the world in the US.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 19, 2012, 05:17:33 am
Saying America has no culture, is saying the world has no culture. We have probably pretty close to most cultures from all around the world in the US.
That's why we are referred to as a melting pot of ethnicities. ;)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 19, 2012, 08:57:14 am
Old people kicking ass

Raw Video: Fla. Man Shoots Would-be Robbers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBjzdvSloG8#ws)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 19, 2012, 09:46:08 am
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp (http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp)

Good enough?

I also noticed that there are conflicting statistics in different areas saying that places that has gun control noticed a drop in violence, but opposite in other places where it went up instead.

The REAL problem here is that people are very unpredictable. How many times you've heard stories of someone doing violent crimes and have their friends & relatives saying that he/she gets along with everybody?

A firearm is just another tool, but in the wrong hands becomes deadly. If someone performs vehicular manslaughter, should we ban vehicles?
The only foreign country taken in here is Britain, the rest of Europe is conveniently left out.
Even the statistics in the report are conflicting, showing increases that are equal in states with and without gun laws, and decreases already happened before they were removed.

The main origin of the "fight" lies in the culture in de US that some think is absent, but has clearly developed. While in Europe there has usally been a from of strong Government and police everywhere,
the US grew up as "free land" where a strong self-defense was crucial for survival.
This has been embedded in culture so strong that limiting gun possession is for many, as has been proved in this topic, like removing a crucial body part (pun intended).
The defense often amounts to irrational rambles and anger, rather than real statistics just as one would expect.

Reality is that with their culture, citizens in the US often need the feeling of safety that comes from possessing a gun, where as Europeans often feel that having a potential lethal device at home is a risk.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 19, 2012, 10:10:34 am
where as Europeans often feel that having a potential lethal device at home is a risk.

it will be interesting to see if this ever change seeing as there has been so much racial violence and tension.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 19, 2012, 10:33:02 am
it will be interesting to see if this ever change seeing as there has been so much racial violence and tension.
The amount of racial violence and tension is hugely exaggerated.
First of all there is the identity crisis of the third and fourth generations, who do not belong to the country of their ancestors, yet are not fully accepted where they live. This will pass, as it passed for people who migrated earlier. In Holland nowadays there is no violence regarding the people from Indonesia, Italy or Surinam, which was there 30 years ago.
Second there is the economic crisis, which also causes people to be less friendly to groups that migrated.
Ever asked an American how he feels about Mexicans, or a Russian regarding Azerbeidjani?
Nothing strange, and nothing that can be solved with an uprise in economy.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 19, 2012, 11:32:05 am
The only foreign country taken in here is Britain
Probibly because I've only mentioned Britain not having guns, I don't know about the rest of Europe so I didn't say.. :D

where as Europeans often feel that having a potential lethal device at home is a risk.
I'm not sure on the rest of Europe, once again.. But one main problem that stops people possessing guns for defence in the UK is that if you kill someone who breaks into your house and trys to hurt you, your still going down for murder. There was a story not long ago, a British farmer was being robbed by two dick heads in his house, he woke up and got his rifle, they ran off and he chased them out shooting at them as they ran across the field, he killed one and injured the other, he was sent down for years.

Fact is it's mainly some of the shit laws that stop people defending themselves across the UK, probibly the same for the rest of Europe since they don't really have guns either. :razz:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 19, 2012, 11:40:25 am
Probibly because I've only mentioned Britain not having guns, I don't know about the rest of Europe so I didn't say.. :D
I'm not sure on the rest of Europe, once again.. But one main problem that stops people possessing guns for defence in the UK is that if you kill someone who breaks into your house and trys to hurt you, your still going down for murder. There was a story not long ago, a British farmer was being robbed by two dick heads in his house, he woke up and got his rifle, they ran off and he chased them out shooting at them as they ran across the field, he killed one and injured the other, he was sent down for years.

Fact is it's mainly some of the shit laws that stop people defending themselves across the UK, probibly the same for the rest of Europe since they don't really have guns either. :razz:
And rightfully so. It might have been accepted that he defended his home, but chasing after them simply makes him a killer.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 19, 2012, 12:09:44 pm
And rightfully so. It might have been accepted that he defended his home, but chasing after them simply makes him a killer.
Wouldn't you shoot at two thugs that just robbed from your home and will probibly go on to do it to others? I certainly would.
Theres those that don't have jobs, and don't break the law, and theres those that don't have jobs, because they can't be bothered and decide to steal from people who work for a living instead, they are the people I'de shoot at. :roll:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 19, 2012, 02:05:45 pm
Wouldn't you shoot at two thugs that just robbed from your home and will probibly go on to do it to others? I certainly would.
Theres those that don't have jobs, and don't break the law, and theres those that don't have jobs, because they can't be bothered and decide to steal from people who work for a living instead, they are the people I'de shoot at. :roll:
That means you are potentially Mr Anders Breivik.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on July 19, 2012, 02:06:51 pm
(http://pinkie.ponychan.net/chan/files/src/132505226769.jpg)
That picture only proves you can't prove me wrong and are not capable of having a discussion.
I'm done with you here.

Saying America has no culture, is saying the world has no culture. We have probably pretty close to most cultures from all around the world in the US.
That's where you go wrong.
The only reason that there is any culture within the US is because immigrants wanted to keep their own culture and not adapt to American lifestyle.
Mexicans and Russians for example.
The Americans never had any real culture besides being capitalists.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 19, 2012, 03:03:35 pm
That means you are potentially Mr Anders Breivik.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :mad:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Jellyfish on July 19, 2012, 05:01:17 pm
Harboring those outcasts from another country. The influx of afghanis screwed Pakistan up beyond recognition, and the same fate has befallen America. Even though white people may pull the strings, but a majority of immigrants are the arsenal they require, since they're not ones to get their hands dirty.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 19, 2012, 06:26:58 pm
Harboring those outcasts from another country. The influx of afghanis screwed Pakistan up beyond recognition, and the same fate has befallen America. Even though white people may pull the strings, but a majority of immigrants are the arsenal they require, since they're not ones to get their hands dirty.
And the people from Pakistan who could have done the work are sitting in England....
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 19, 2012, 09:15:53 pm
That means you are potentially Mr Anders Breivik.

and?
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 19, 2012, 09:28:23 pm
and?
A guy who should not have a gun?  :D
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SafetyMoose on July 19, 2012, 09:52:37 pm
A guy who should not have a gun?  :D

Some people think otherwise, which scares me but an overwhelming number of people seem to support his cause.. maybe not his actions but his cause none the less.


Did World of Warcraft make him a gun crazy killer? :D

(http://blog.triplepointpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/breivik-wow.jpg)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 19, 2012, 10:43:43 pm
Some people think otherwise, which scares me but an overwhelming number of people seem to support his cause.. maybe not his actions but his cause none the less.


Did World of Warcraft make him a gun crazy killer? :D

(http://blog.triplepointpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/breivik-wow.jpg)
No idea if Mikal plays WOW....
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 19, 2012, 11:05:22 pm
No idea if Mikal plays WOW....
F**k no WoW is for emos and complete utter no lifes. ;)
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: SugarD on July 20, 2012, 12:28:43 am
Did World of Warcraft make him a gun crazy killer? :D
Lol reminds me of the people who have said GTA inspired them to carjack people and kill them for money... :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Pandalink on July 20, 2012, 06:18:19 am
F**k no WoW is for emos and complete utter no lifes. ;)
lolno
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Darxez on July 20, 2012, 11:27:23 am
Problem is, here, on the country side of France. That every farmer has a gun, so... And they do use it if you attempt to steal some fruit (or do any other bullshit, I played golf once on one of the farmers his field, never run and laughed so hard). Problem is, they're here quite trigger happy. That's why I can actually hunt down a animal without getting any shitty problems, because ''les flics'' (the police offcers) are never around when needed.  :lol:
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Gandalf on July 20, 2012, 11:31:01 am
Problem is, here, on the country side of France. That every farmer has a gun, so... And they do use it if you attempt to steal some fruit (or do any other bullshit, I played golf once on one of the farmers his field, never run and laughed so hard). Problem is, they're here quite trigger happy. That's why I can actually hunt down a animal without getting any shitty problems, because ''les flics'' (the police offcers) are never around when needed.  :lol:
It is a pretty good custom in Russia for farmers to have a gun as well. In most cases it is loaded with salt.
Won't kill you but aimed as the butt will make you remember for weeks whenever you try to sit...
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Darxez on July 20, 2012, 11:33:39 am
It is a pretty good custom in Russia for farmers to have a gun as well. In most cases it is loaded with salt.
Won't kill you but aimed as the butt will make you remember for weeks whenever you try to sit...

Criminal rate here = nothing. I left my bike 1 week unlocked once, it wasn't stolen, it was even put aside so it would be more safe. They shoot with sharp here, problem is, they only shoot if you did something real bad. If not, they'll just hit you.
Title: Re: Police officer shot dead in street
Post by: Mikal on July 20, 2012, 11:17:51 pm
It is a pretty good custom in Russia for farmers to have a gun as well. In most cases it is loaded with salt.
Won't kill you but aimed as the butt will make you remember for weeks whenever you try to sit...
Russias civilians don't need guns, they got some of the toughest jails in the world, TBH I wish British jails were like Russian ones, would certainly be less criminals.
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