Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Mashgash on August 06, 2011, 06:47:08 pm
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As the subject, is people who is not suspected allowed to enter a shootout if he/she has a family member who is suspected?
Aswell, if one family member gets suspected, escaping but still are with his/her family members, cops approching and he/she entering the shootout again. What's allowed, what's not allowed? Since, what I heard, if you not are suspected, you aren't allowed to enter a shootout to aid your friends, and if you escaped / died, you should get lost from the current crimescene.
What does the rules says about this, what do you think? I would also like to have an straight answer on this question. Thank you.
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If you're with that person in the shootout, you may aid.
If people travel across the map to aid a person in a shootout, it's not allowed.
If a gang is fighting off another, they may call backup to kill off the rival gang.
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Simple, if a non-suspect is in the suspects vehicle, he is with him, or if he is constantly following him, and they have the SAME tag, like Gvardia they can shoot.
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It's generally not considered okay to just roll up to a battle and enter it.
To avoid confusion, if you wish to back up your group, arrive at the scene suspected. Then there is no question and the cops can continue to shoot without confusion.
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The reason friends are not allowed to simply roll up to you and aid you in a shootout is the confusion it may create.
From the opposing groups point of view it'll look like a random guy just came to DM them.
However if a group member that wears the same tag as you rolls up and starts shooting at whoever you are shooting at, it is allowed.
You have the same tag, and therefore help eachother. The tag combined with common sense eliminates the confusion and the opposing group can clearly see who came to DM and who came as backup.
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Actually having same tag isn't enough.
Cops will pull up to a group of wanted/nonwanted mixed but all with same tag. Cops will suspect - criminals moan "we didn't shoot, abusers". Cops don't suspect - they get backraped.
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That's a risk they take to do their job, Grze. They tell the nonwanted group members to go away or get suspected, simple as that.
Or even better, don't pull up to a group of 4-5 lets say Corleone's only because one of them is wanted. Having backup from the same group has always been allowed. Thats a perk of being in a group, just like the ARPD is entitled to their own backup.
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@Comrade
Still won't stop moaning and still won't stop mass deathmatching, only induce it more.
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Or even better, don't pull up to a group of 4-5 lets say Corleone's only because one of them is wanted. Having backup from the same group has always been allowed. Thats a perk of being in a group, just like the ARPD is entitled to their own backup.
I know it's allowed at Corleone HQ.
It depends on the situation...
1. If it is the mafia HQ and all mafia members are there, cops are trying to arrest one of them, of cos, nonsense if other mafia members will stand and watch it...
In this case members of mafia group will start to shoot back, trying to help the friend... It is ok...
2. Police is chasing some guy and suddenly appears a car with non-wanted civilian who started shooting them... Simply, cops can decide it is a deathmatcher/cophunter... Attack without a reason is not allowed... And this rule plays here not the best role... As for the criminal helper, so for admins who got reports and for sure will freeze you to get the reason of shooting cops...
How to help?
In this case (if you want to shoot cops back) the main target is to get wanted level... Get him into your car and try to get rid of chase... Cops will suspect you for aiding, then aub, your dream became be a reality...
With wanted level you are allowed to help any sort of criminals with any sort of help...
Why is such rule actually?
Well, you see blue nick of cop, you know he can shoot you if you are criminal... So do cops when see a wanted level of your nick... Both sides are equal and do not confuse each other, less misunderstanding, less reports to admins...
The thing is - attack of mafia members at HQ is expectable and understandable...
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@Comrade
Still won't stop moaning and still won't stop mass deathmatching
But then again, nothing will.
As long as there are rules, there will always be some random dipshit there to break them.
And as long as we have random dipshits running around breaking rules, we will have people moaning about it.
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Actually having same tag isn't enough.
Cops will pull up to a group of wanted/nonwanted mixed but all with same tag. Cops will suspect - criminals moan "we didn't shoot, abusers". Cops don't suspect - they get backraped.
I agree to this. In my opinion, if you are on the crimescene, you want to get involved, I have started to suspect everyone who is present on the crimescene as civilans as long they aren't showing any way they trying to avoid the situation. This starting alot of moaning, but if we don't suspect, we might be backstabbed.
So, Corleone can protect their owns, Gvarida can protect their owns etc..? How about if they travel from SF to LS just to help their family member? I would like to clear this out, since it's happening everyday.
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How about if they travel from SF to LS just to help their family member? I would like to clear this out, since it's happening everyday.
That's called backup.
If a car with fully armed members of said group suddenly rolls up and starts drivebying you, I think it's pretty obvious they are helping the one you are attacking.
It's not deathmatching, as they do have a roleplay reason (which is protecting/rescuing their own.)
I'm not saying I am 100% correct though, as this is only what I see. I mean, common sense. Never seen anybody punished for being backup though, except for untagged associated/friends.
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That's called backup.
If a car with fully armed members of said group suddenly rolls up and starts drivebying you, I think it's pretty obvious they are helping the one you are attacking.
It's not deathmatching, as they do have a roleplay reason (which is protecting/rescuing their own.)
I'm not saying I am 100% correct though, as this is only what I see. I mean, common sense. Never seen anybody punished for being backup though, except for untagged associated/friends.
You are not correct.
You have to be wanted if you want to help your friends by shooting at cops, if you arrive late. If you were there the whole time you can shoot. If your friend is being chased and you drive-by the cop without being wantedthat is deathmatching.. Simple..
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@Comrey
You got it wrong. The whole deal with the "rp reason" is that the TARGET/PERSON ATTACKED knows why is he shot at.
And since the server is not a team deathmatch, just "being on the other team" is not a valid reason to attack "the other team".
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That's called backup.
If a car with fully armed members of said group suddenly rolls up and starts drivebying you, I think it's pretty obvious they are helping the one you are attacking.
It's not deathmatching, as they do have a roleplay reason (which is protecting/rescuing their own.)
I'm not saying I am 100% correct though, as this is only what I see. I mean, common sense. Never seen anybody punished for being backup though, except for untagged associated/friends.
If you want to see punishment do it when owners are on server and spectating...
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If you want to see punishment do it when owners are on server and spectating...
So you're actually saying that family members aren't allowed to defend their owns as non suspects?
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So you're actually saying that family members aren't allowed to defend their owns as non suspects?
Read the post of Aragorn.
In my words : if you are not part of the roleplay in which the suspection started, you are walking on thin ice. If a mafia member is suspected and a car full of non-suspected family members pull up to help in the shootout, expect them getting punushed.
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It all depends on the situation like Gandalf and Aragorn have said. The main aspect is that everybody has to understand who are and who aren't part of the role play.
For example, lets say there has been a shootout in LS and now some people are chasing one Gvardia member. When that Gvardia member reaches SF Gvardia HQ, and there are quite a few other Gvardia members there, use your common sense and don't assume you are going to be greeted with some milk and cookies.
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Engaging cops as a none suspect it's two things we can punish for, cophunting and deathmatching. IF they now are not apart of the roleplay they shouldn't come and backstab officers since they will be unaware
why they got attacked and will report the player for deathmatching.
If you now so badly want to kill cops, aid your friends, group members or what it is. Offer them a ride to get suspected and easily get your roleplay reason there to kill cops...
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Alright thanks everyone for their answers! I hope this clearfied things for others and not just me, making sense now.
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defend
I'd hardly call it defending, since such maneuver will get the whole gang wanted (and most likely killed), instead of only the originally wanted people. Not mentioning admin punishment.
So I don't even see how such "defending" is even profitable in any way, since you have to spend on guns, ammo, armour and health a lot more money than for just turning yourself in and spending only $200 on jail.
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I'd hardly call it defending, since such maneuver will get the whole gang wanted (and most likely killed), instead of only the originally wanted people. Not mentioning admin punishment.
So I don't even see how such "defending" is even profitable in any way, since you have to spend on guns, ammo, armour and health a lot more money than for just turning yourself in and spending only $200 on jail.
There is something called comradeship. I'm sure you've heard of it.
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There is something called comradeship. I'm sure you've heard of it.
It's more like recklessness in this case.
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I'd hardly call it defending, since such maneuver will get the whole gang wanted (and most likely killed), instead of only the originally wanted people. Not mentioning admin punishment.
So I don't even see how such "defending" is even profitable in any way, since you have to spend on guns, ammo, armour and health a lot more money than for just turning yourself in and spending only $200 on jail.
So you actually want to discuss which word I choosed for my sentence....? I bet you know what I mean, no need to take out one word of my sentence and begin to discuss it, you know what I mean, enough that way...
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Then what did you mean by "defend"?
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Then what did you mean by "defend"?
I wrote defend just because I thought it fit in that sentence.
Member 1 is suspected.
Member 2, 3 and 4 approching from the other side of the country just to help him.
Either you call it aiding, defending your partner or you just calling it cophunting / deathmatching as it seems to be that from all the answers that has been given here.
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@Mash
The word does not matter actually since it still means the same.
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@Mash
The word does not matter actually since it still means the same.
Then why did you pointed it out :conf: :lol:
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So by this logic; if cops that arrive to assist other cops who are in a gunfight were not present at the scene or involved in the roleplay, they cannot assist fellow officers in a fight? because its the same thing. If cops can call random cops to come and help them out in a gunfight from across the map then it seems very unfair that we can't do the same. I mean, If I'm being shot at and I run into a group of my associates they're not just going to stand there and let me get killed. They'd shoot the cop to save my life which is what cops do all the time.
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by this logic
Dangerously sensible words, Romeo.
Anyway, like I mentioned earlier, in order to avoid confusion with police make it clear that you are backing up a suspect, ideally by being in the same group (with the same tag) and arriving to the scene already suspected. That way, there can be no confusion and no cop moaning.
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I feel it awkward, that cops can call backup in a roleplay, which means other cops can join a roleplay they didn't engaged from the start, but a members of the same Crime Family, can't engaged as backup, cause they weren't on the start of roleplay.
And as a experience criminal, the 'getting suspect then helping', is losing valuable time (Even if it only takes 10 seconds), in which your help ain't worth it no more to your fellow comrades.
But you guys are the Bosses, yours is final.
Also, the 'Mafia HQ' rule, which is logical enough, what happens if the Mafia or a gang doesn't have a HQ? Gvardia doesn't have a HQ, but 3 equally important buildings at Queens? What about gangs, who only has their hoods , and not a specific 'HQ' ?
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@Cofi
If you want total equality in any combat situations, Team Deathmatch is more suitable for you :poke:
As an experienced criminal myself, I can tell you that it's easier (and cheaper) to tell the wanted members to surrender and not waste resources on futile fights with the cops. And of course try to not get wanted in the first place - then the cops can't chase you.
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@Cofi
If you want total equality in any combat situations, Team Deathmatch is more suitable for you :poke:
The reason that cop can call backup across the map even the cop is not engaged and the reason that disallow the group with same tag to protect their member even some are not involved in first place are contradictory.
I agree....Criminal and cop should not get fairness in a combat,someone have to lose in the end..So it's allowed for cop to return,while criminal can't<<is understanding and logical nothing to argue about it..
However...when it comes to Calling backup across the map induces DM.? If that's the case...what makes you think only criminal play a havoc ?try to count the number of cops and criminals or associate anytime..
If you are so afraid of DM party...limit it also to police force.
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@Cofi
If you want total equality in any combat situations, Team Deathmatch is more suitable for you :poke:
As an experienced criminal myself, I can tell you that it's easier (and cheaper) to tell the wanted members to surrender and not waste resources on futile fights with the cops. And of course try to not get wanted in the first place - then the cops can't chase you.
Yet another biased outlook.
So you're implying that cops MUST have several advantages for it to be fair? Alright, I'll agree with that to an extent. Let's take a look here.
Cops can return after death to criminals that have already been engaged by them and they've failed.
Cops can enter shootouts with other cops even though they're not involved in the roleplay/situation.
Cops have scripted weapons and commands which make it a hell of a lot easier to play as a cop.
They have money issued to them for doing the jobs that they are told to do.
Plenty of advantages, eh. The only advantages we have really is that we're allowed to operate within our own protocols as criminal group members, within the server rules of course. There is nothing else that separates us from being civilians to being criminals, and now we're being told we can't even protect our own group members unless cops decide to involve us first.
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@Chaska
Cops do not need to be limited. Do not get wanted in the first place and there won't be problem with z0mg they can backup and we can't.
@Romeo
Biased towards whom? Or is it another generic moan/flame because I do not follow same views?
Also stop referring to suspects as "criminals" and z0mg counting out cops' "advantages" because you sound like you have no idea what's being a criminal. Oh and I never implied anything has to be "fair".
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- cops can not engage criminals, they can engage suspects only
- crimnals do not get fined each time they shoot a cop or one of their fellow criminals
- crimnals do not get fired from their mafia if they commit invalid crimes
- criminals do not have to return to their HQ to relaod their weapons if they die
If you are suspected and you do not want to go to jail, you have the option of running..... if you choose not to use it do not blame your big balls for dying...
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Regardless of what you just said, disallowing criminals to help each other seems extremely unfair. If I see my underboss being killed by cops when I'm driving past, I'm just supposed to keep driving? because I won't get suspected so that I can help unless I shoot first which I can't do because it's apparently rulebreaking.
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Why would your underboss fight cops in the first place?
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Why would your underboss fight cops in the first place?
Could be any number of reasons.
Maybe he executed someone in Bone County and the cops drove to him, and cornered him somewhere.
Maybe another mafia went to carry out a hit on him and he killed the attacker, and again the cops cornered him.
Perhaps the cops raided him ordering heroin on the ship, and upon reaching the mainland after escaping on a boat, the boat is shot and set on fire and there are no cars nearby.
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If people travel across the map to aid a person in a shootout, it's not allowed.
explain me how it's not allowed if you roleplay it by calling the person who needs help first, and dont even feed me with that 'thats unrealistic!111' bullshit.
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Could be any number of reasons.
Maybe he executed someone in Bone County and the cops drove to him, and cornered him somewhere.
Maybe another mafia went to carry out a hit on him and he killed the attacker, and again the cops cornered him.
Perhaps the cops raided him ordering heroin on the ship, and upon reaching the mainland after escaping on a boat, the boat is shot and set on fire and there are no cars nearby.
A number of examples. The point in being suspected is not to automatically give up, otherwise when the /su command is cast upon someone it'd work the same as if they typed /gu.
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Regardless of what you just said, disallowing criminals to help each other seems extremely unfair. If I see my underboss being killed by cops when I'm driving past, I'm just supposed to keep driving? because I won't get suspected so that I can help unless I shoot first which I can't do because it's apparently rulebreaking.
If your underboss is stupid enough to get the cops on his behind, you should fire him for risking your whole family getting in to trouble.
Rememebr that if you want realistic, if you die then you are no longer the head of your mafia...
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If your underboss is stupid enough to get the cops on his behind, you should fire him for risking your whole family getting in to trouble.
Rememebr that if you want realistic, if you die then you are no longer the head of your mafia...
there's nothing realistic about allowing people to help there friends in a shootout. Argonath isn't based on realism, so I don't see how that has to do with anything.
All I'm saying is; I should have the option to defend my group members if I am required to, and deal with the stupidity of their actions afterwards instead of letting them get killed.
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If your underboss is stupid enough to get the cops on his behind, you should fire him for risking your whole family getting in to trouble.
Rememebr that if you want realistic, if you die then you are no longer the head of your mafia...
Let's kick out all the cops from SAPD for every death they get. You know, realism ftw!
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there's nothing realistic about allowing people to help there friends in a shootout. Argonath isn't based on realism, so I don't see how that has to do with anything.
All I'm saying is; I should have the option to defend my group members if I am required to, and deal with the stupidity of their actions afterwards instead of letting them get killed.
You do not have that option. Clear and simple. If you wish to circumvent it expect punishment.
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- crimnals do not get fired from their mafia if they commit invalid crimes
Those groups classified as having a significant presence, all have in some form - internal guidelines which act as rule breaking prevention plans. The exclusion/disciplinary of members who breach what I call 'rule breaking prevention plans' belonging to a group/gang/establishment are made carefully, tactically and in most circumstances based on prolonged interactions.
This is in stark contrast to the SAPD who universally opt for a 'one size fits all' and 'arms length' approach. This highlights how the underlying criminal engine room has evolved to counter what people may claim as lack of scripts and demonstrates how ingenuitive people really are here. For criminals, competition amongest each other have brought out the best in them stretching as far as drawing up contingency and succession plans - very impressing and surely positive indicators to be used in real life objectives :D
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Those groups classified as having a significant presence, all have in some form - internal guidelines which act as rule breaking prevention plans. The exclusion/disciplinary of members who breach what I call 'rule breaking prevention plans' belonging to a group/gang/establishment are made carefully, tactically and in most circumstances based on prolonged interactions.
This is in stark contrast to the SAPD who universally opt for a 'one size fits all' and 'arms length' approach. This highlights how the underlying criminal engine room has evolved to counter what people may claim as lack of scripts and demonstrates how ingenuitive people really are here. For criminals, competition amongest each other have brought out the best in them stretching as far as drawing up contingency and succession plans - very impressing and surely positive indicators to be used in real life objectives :D
Which does not seem to prevent even the founders of groups bearking simple rules like "no attack without reason".....
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Oops, sorry Gandalf - wrong post in the wrong topic :D
This like many other scenarios are open to intrepretation - those who observe for a limited time cannot understand a time-tested ailing relationship and make judgement on the spot fairly. However, should they have chosen to ask what the reason may have been - I'm sure they would have duly provided an appropriate one.
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Oops, sorry Gandalf - wrong post in the wrong topic :D
This like many other scenarios are open to intrepretation - those who observe for a limited time cannot understand a time-tested ailing relationship and make judgement on the spot fairly. However, should they have chosen to ask what the reason may have been - I'm sure they would have duly provided an appropriate one.
If a player is spectated and attacks without any talk or other possible provocation whatever reason the attacking player may have validated himself by is just a way to attempt playing innocent. Long time players are supposed to know basic rules, and trying to circumvent them by "smart" ideas is not going to work on managers or owners.
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If a player is spectated and attacks without any talk or other possible provocation whatever reason the attacking player may have validated himself by is just a way to attempt playing innocent. Long time players are supposed to know basic rules, and trying to circumvent them by "smart" ideas is not going to work on managers or owners.
Spectating a scenario from whichever point they consider the start, does not take in account past interactions, relationship between the two, whether it is a segment of a wider story or the only interaction between the two. Further, the approach does not take account of the motive behind the action of a experienced player - providing a basis for one sided argument and approach.
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Spectating a scenario from whichever point they consider the start, does not take in account past interactions, relationship between the two, whether it is a segment of a wider story or the only interaction between the two. Further, the approach does not take account of the motive behind the action of a experienced player - providing a basis for one sided argument and approach.
But when we first start to spectate Frank we get a clear picture of what happens. Usually I ask why the particular person attack the other person. He tells me his roleplay reason, later on I ask the other player.
He is not even aware of their reason and consider it as deathmatch and he is often the one who has reported.
So I can't really tell.
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Just reminding that not only the attacker needs to have a valid role-play reason (not just any reason, because even deathmatch can have some reason), but the victim also has to be fully aware for what reason is he about to die. Rembering this will solve probably half of the reports without needing admins to handle it.
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@Cofi
If you want total equality in any combat situations, Team Deathmatch is more suitable for you :poke:
And Sims or Power Puff Girls online , would be more suitable to you. But who's implying that...
As an experienced criminal myself
Stopped reading here.
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And Sims or Power Puff Girls online , would be more suitable to you. But who's implying that...Stopped reading here.
Yeah, look how awesome this is!
The Sims 3 Vice City Preview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DygM_aIa9yI#)
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And Sims or Power Puff Girls online , would be more suitable to you. But who's implying that...
Basing that choice on what? Or just another reversal reply because of no real counter-arguments?
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As for the topic, I have some things to say...
Recently I have witnessed incidents where a few members of a certain criminal group (and associates), counting below ten, hole themselves up in a bank and announce that the bank is being robbed. The said criminals then send messages to random regulars and new guys, to go to the bank and aid them to shoot against the cops, with the reason for admins that "We were recruiting them for a roleplay job", and so ended up almost 30 suspects inside the LS Bank.
The excuse used was total bullshit, since their scenario was a kidnapping-robbery. There was no hostage left, and there was no robbery RP happening either, just a bunch of 15-25 suspects holed up in the vault, armed to the teeth, waiting to kill the first cop who enters (some were even smart enough to shoot at bright red names, and they paid dearly for it)...
During the said incident (where around 20 cops gathered outside the bank), Jcstodds entered the bank and tempbanned for an hour, all those involved for the reason of inciting absolute Team Deathmatch under the guise of a bank robbery. In my view, his actions were correct and justified.
Being a stricter admin than Jcstodds, I would personally ban the next smartass I catch spreading "Come help us DM the cops!" calls to half the server, unless ordered otherwise by Argonath Management.
Sure, in advance I can anticipate the rulebreakers moaning with the reason "but it was RP!"... such smart-assing will not work with admins, because we are more than capable of finding out if it really was an RP or if simply another massive rulebreaking being disguised as RP. This especially goes for veteran mafiosi and "jungle call" gangsters who would dare to incite mass deathmatching against cops, since they have no reason to do so, due to the fact they already know all the rules compared to a simple newbie criminal / suspect.
Have a nice, rulebreaker-free Argonath day.
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Yeah, look how awesome this is!
The Sims 3 Vice City Preview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DygM_aIa9yI#)
2 words... #win-ning