Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Cofiliano on July 26, 2016, 06:46:43 pm
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Alright, lets talk about rules and roleplay policy, and lets discuss a plan on what kind of a server we all want to play at.
We were on a path to become a medium roleplay server, and I personally think we should continue in that direction.
This means we need the rules on roleplay interactions to be written down to the smallest detail, covering all sorts of interaction, and how to properly do it, so people wouldn't get banned because some admin or even a HQ member made up a rule in a second, and didn't inform the rest of the Community.
What's your suggestions, ideas, opinions?
Lets be constructive here, no arguments and shit, just post what rules should apply in roleplay interaction, and how do you imagine the level of roleplay?
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Stop nerfing shit because "it's too profitable", players need money for RP, let them have it.
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Start off by stopping every ongoing war on the server. At least untill community heals from it's current state
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Not another one of these topics please...
The rules are crystal clear as they are and so is our vision.
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Salmonella, most of the criminal factions on Argonath disagree with you(check previous topics such as Unite), if you didn't noticed people stopped playing because of this(again they all pointed this out), so a wide consensus over this has to be made, and if accepted by the HQ, fulfilled.
So its not "one of these topics", yet lets be constructive and see how can we improve the current situation.
Start off by stopping every ongoing war on the server. At least untill community heals from it's current state
You really think wars are the problems? There's an average of 10 players online.
Read my reply here about it: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=117361.msg1845721#msg1845721
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People here have 'disagreed' for the last 4 years or so. That doesn't make this 1337th topic any different from the last one. It'll be the same 'discussion' here as it was in ''Unite''.
People stopped playing for a lot of reasons. This new management will also mean more will leave but I've already seen multiple people come back because of it as well.
Just go with the flow, no need for more useless bickering and dick-measuring.
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If you think its useless, then don't participate in the topic Salmonella, no one's holding you here.
The tittle is clear, policy as in roleplay policy, what is allowed and what's not allowed to perform in a roleplay, and what can get you punished.
From small things such as, are we allowed to use /area without writting /me's and some hi tech tracking system, and so on.
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If the owner/HQ wants to have a RP server, we must have no metagaming rule. Before you try and tell me to jog on, understand that if my group for example chooses not to metagame, that doesn't stop the rest of the players from metagaming and that ruins the fun for both of us. Take Teddy as an example, he didn't mix his fbi director char and his criminal one, because if he did he would immediatly know who is a criminal and what they do.
And I mean we already have "no powergaming" in Argonath, it's a rule, but not the same terms/wording. But it is essentially the same thing. What wrong would "no metagame" bring?
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Common sense truly is lacking in many.
We'll see 10 pages further what happened. ;)
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Common sense truly is lacking in many.
We'll see 10 pages further what happened. ;)
Then;
If you think its useless, then don't participate in the topic Salmonella, no one's holding you here.
Please keep this a constructive topic, in the interests of all of us.
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Skills beat rules.
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And sometimes bans beat skills. :lol:
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''no metagaming''
"no powergaming"
:app:
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I agree with Stivi about metagaming and powergaming, but not sure how the rest of the people feels about it.
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As for the constructive rules of roleplay, if you really want to move the server towards a more structured style of roleplay, you need to recognize the fact that powergaming and metagaming exist. I think, implementing rules that prevent people from using these to their advantage is the only way to deal with this, ignoring it is not a solution.
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I agree with powergaming and metagaming.
Plus no bunnyhopping
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I'd love it if we shifted away from the whole light RP dynamic and started getting a little more serious about role-playing. There was a period of time, little less than a year ago where the levels of roleplay increased significantly because of the stern approach Teddy was taking to non-roleplayers.
Honestly, as much as i'm all for Argonath being a "world of it's own," it's that same term that drags us back. I always thought of it as meaning that not everything in Argonath has to mirror real life, as it would allow for people to get a bit more creative with less limitations. Rather, people use it as an excuse to continue with the same old linear roleplays, identifying people a nametag floating above their head, using blips to find others, using /area etc. I'm not asking for Argonath to become another LS:RP (srsly stop avoiding naming that server as if we're talking about Voldemort lol), but if powergaming/metagaming would be clearly enforced, some general guidelines about what does & doesn't constitute RP (doesn't have to be long, just a general outline) were created, and if these rules were applied consistently when punishing wrongdoers; I reckon a lot more people would be satisfied.
And yes, before anyone calls me a hypocrite even i've fallen short of my own standards of roleplay. Fact is, with the state the server has been in recently many people have become quite complacent when it comes to RP.
Roleplay aside, i'm somewhat in agreement with this also.
Stop nerfing shit because "it's too profitable", players need money for RP, let them have it.
I'd be lying if i said i ever needed money for RP, but it's nice to earn a buck when there's literally nothing else going on. If you're going to keep nerfing any profitable way to make some cash people aren't going to find certain jobs worthwhile. Sure there'll be complaints of money-farming, and yeah it was pretty prevalent in the past especially when trucking was around. Honestly though, i had 10x more fun during that time than i do now and i wasn't even trucking as often as some. It's a game after all, and whilst people play for fun it's expected that they'll want some incentives (i.e money/houses/cars).
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Public chat turned off with 15 players or more online.
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Guys powergaming is already part of the rules, and at some point I thought metagaming was too, I'll read through them again, 'cause right now I can't remember.
Powergaming falls under "don't force to RP". We need metagame too. Though this is only my opinion, I don't know if the rest want it. Because then we'd only have /area for cops ( to make it a bit more fair of them trynna use some "passed the tolls" "street cameras" ), /kill removed ( gotcha bogomil ;) ) and maybe other stuff.
Here's the topic: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=111810.0,
and read this reply: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=111810.msg1763718#msg1763718
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Perhaps it is my old style, but I am still a strong believer in a little rules as possible.
Roleplay has nothing to do with rules, as if you need rules they must be enforceable.
What punishment woud be given on metagaming? How can admins know a player did it? If all you want is to be able to whinge about another player not dong it 'properly' that means you wish to force them in tyo what you do instead of using improvisation.
Roleplay is about interacting and improvising. Being original, if possible funny or at least entertaining.
Not being stuck in the same mode of being an undestructible tough guy that must kill all his enemies (and fogtets dying himself numerous times) and be 'the man'. It can be fun for a short time, but it is more fun to randomly choose a set of clothes and follow its looks by building something out of it. Allow to be beaten up because you are not that tough looking. Find somehting that does not include weapons, violence, killing and shooting.
Rules are for those who have no originality, no improisation or creative mind. For peopl who neeed to be told what to do and how to do it. Rules are for NPC Characters tat are as interchangeable as hackers. Roleplay is done without rules, without fixed patterns or knowing what you will do. It has nothing to do with winning. It has nothing to do with masturbating your circle of friends while shutting out those who you do not know.
If you want ahigher level of roleplay, teach. Teach everyone you come across, show them how much fun it can be in such a way they wish to follow what you do. Not by threatening them and calling enforcement of admins who do not need to be there to wipe your ass.
Yes, people should roleplay. And no, pointless repetitive scenarios is not roleplay.
This is the tl:dr version of my earlier comment.
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Stop nerfing shit because "it's too profitable", players need money for RP, let them have it.
I am all in for making money more accessible than it currently is. However, I think nerfing should still happen if something would happen to be just a blatant money farm.
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Perhaps it is my old style, but I am still a strong believer in a little rules as possible.
Roleplay has nothing to do with rules, as if you need rules they must be enforceable.
What punishment woud be given on metagaming? How can admins know a player did it? If all you want is to be able to whinge about another player not dong it 'properly' that means you wish to force them in tyo what you do instead of using improvisation.
Roleplay is about interacting and improvising. Being original, if possible funny or at least entertaining.
Not being stuck in the same mode of being an undestructible tough guy that must kill all his enemies (and fogtets dying himself numerous times) and be 'the man'. It can be fun for a short time, but it is more fun to randomly choose a set of clothes and follow its looks by building something out of it. Allow to be beaten up because you are not that tough looking. Find somehting that does not include weapons, violence, killing and shooting.
Rules are for those who have no originality, no improisation or creative mind. For peopl who neeed to be told what to do and how to do it. Rules are for NPC Characters tat are as interchangeable as hackers. Roleplay is done without rules, without fixed patterns or knowing what you will do. It has nothing to do with winning. It has nothing to do with masturbating your circle of friends while shutting out those who you do not know.
If you want ahigher level of roleplay, teach. Teach everyone you come across, show them how much fun it can be in such a way they wish to follow what you do. Not by threatening them and calling enforcement of admins who do not need to be there to wipe your ass.
Yes, people should roleplay. And no, pointless repetitive scenarios is not roleplay.
I also am not a fan of too many rules, I don't really read them all that much, which might explain my colorful punishment history. Jk. On the first part. ^>^
There really shouldn't be any pushiment as others have suggested. Admins should instead GUIDE the player breaking this rule into roleplaying "properly" ( in a lack of a better word ). How do admins know a player deathmatched? And when the player keeps doing it, he either wants to take advantage of the "no-ban" system or lacks the brain capacity of understand what is what. In both cases, the player can be banned for unable to follow our rules and ignoring administration.
I don't want a higher level of roleplay, there are other servers who offer that and I don't play in them. Perhaps 3 times a year? I want to roleplay in Argonath.
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This is the tl:dr version of my earlier comment.
It goes both ways, if someone metagames or what not they are forcing me into thier shitty RP which I wish not to participate in. Why cant they improvise and not use the OOC information they recieved to RP. These are basic rules in every RP server.
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It goes both ways, if someone metagames or what not they are forcing me into thier shitty RP which I wish not to participate in. Why cant they improvise and not use the OOC information they recieved to RP. These are basic rules in every RP server.
And how do you enforce them?
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And how do you enforce them?
I'm a little moderated so you might have missed my previous reply, being the old guy you are :D
There really shouldn't be any pushiment as others have suggested. Admins should instead GUIDE the player breaking this rule into roleplaying "properly" ( in a lack of a better word ). How do admins know a player deathmatched? And when the player keeps doing it, he either wants to take advantage of the "no-ban" system or lacks the brain capacity of understand what is what. In both cases, the player can be banned for unable to follow our rules and ignoring administration.
We don't need strict rules, we need some guidelines to avoid getting banned. Acika got banned for RPing a tunnel, which I think is pretty creative, but the admins didn't.
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Not gonna shit on this topic but since this is an active one ill say, what the fuck?
This is like the millionth time ive seen these "Lets be honest" or "ONLY CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION" topics that end up with useless arguments and eventually being locked. There is no point in making these topics because they're simply no outcome. The only solution for you guys is to go in game and play, fix things in game. Now i know many of you will jump on the panel to get my activity and honestly i could care less. I haven't been active and that's because i have my reasons.But i have been here long enough to propose a solution without being about told my activity.
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And how do you enforce them?
Same way we enforce every other rule. Hopefully people will get used to it pretty soon as well, it ain't that hard.
Acika got banned for RPing a tunnel, which I think is pretty creative, but the admins didn't.
He got banned for quit abusing. Just becaude you rp using force to move vehicles doesn't mean you won't be banned for car rain hacks.
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He got banned for quit abusing. Just becaude you rp using force to move vehicles doesn't mean you won't be banned for car rain hacks.
Yes, he quit and spawned on the other side of the street, where the exit of the tunnel was. My point wasn't in making Acika the good guy. Let's not derail the topic though.
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I started reading the first few posts and got bored, so.. sorry, but I think this is correct.
Start off by stopping every ongoing war on the server.
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Same way we enforce every other rule. Hopefully people will get used to it pretty soon as well, it ain't that hard.
You know your admin tools. So you get a report of someone metagaming, how do you find out the report is true, and what actions and punisments do tyou perform with the tools you have?
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You know your admin tools. So you get a report of someone metagaming, how do you find out the report is true, and what actions and punisments do tyou perform with the tools you have?
How does he find out deathmatching is true if he didn't witness it?
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No for metagaming/powergaming and all that kind of stuff! :cop:. Keep Argonath simple, the way it is. If you add all these kind of rules it will be no different than any other typical rp server
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You know your admin tools. So you get a report of someone metagaming, how do you find out the report is true, and what actions and punisments do tyou perform with the tools you have?
That depends on situation. I would start off by talking with both parties and requesting chat logs from all parties involved. Later on if needed i could also request a script log check from manager. If one is found lying to administration, whilst given a chance to come clean, then we know what's the punishment for that. On the other hand, if player comes clean, i would probably issue a verbal warning unless player has already been punished for the same thing. But as i said already, a lot of stuff depends on situation.
Either way, i don't see how would it be any different from finding out if someone deathmatched or not.
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I agree with powergaming and metagaming.
Plus no bunnyhopping
I don't want that in Argonath, I mean seriously, BUNNYHOPPING rule? I suggest you go to L*RP if you want that here.
I can not believe that someone wants PG,MG and bunnyhopping rules in Argonath.
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No for metagaming/powergaming and all that kind of stuff! :cop:. Keep Argonath simple, the way it is. If you add all these kind of rules it will be no different than any other typical rp server
powergaming on many servers is what we call forcing roleplay on argonath. as for the meta gaming, we already have some rules against it. Yet it was not fully defined which is what i believe most of the community wants done.
3 years is not much compared to 10 year anniversary we're about to hit in 2 days, but in the time i spent here i got used to a lot of changes. i don't know how would this be much different.
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This is like the millionth time ive seen these "Lets be honest" or "ONLY CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION" topics that end up with useless arguments and eventually being locked.
Stop being melodramatic. No one's having arguments.
I concur with everything thus far. No powergaming and no metagaming. This helps draw lines as to where one's RP character starts and ends. It also helps against "unsportsmanlike" conduct in roleplay thus getting rid of the win-mentality. Bunnyhopping should be strongly discouraged during RP but not when somebody's trying to hop to a car alone in Flint County. That just makes the player want to quit.
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That depends on situation. I would start off by talking with both parties and requesting chat logs from all parties involved. Later on if needed i could also request a script log check from manager. If one is found lying to administration, whilst given a chance to come clean, then we know what's the punishment for that. On the other hand, if player comes clean, i would probably issue a verbal warning unless player has already been punished for the same thing. But as i said already, a lot of stuff depends on situation.
Either way, i don't see how would it be any different from finding out if someone deathmatched or not.
Do you believe metagaming is just as serious as deathmatching?
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Do you believe metagaming is just as serious as deathmatching?
Depends on the context really. If you metagame something big that causes a lot of damage to, let's say someones career or position in his/her roleplay group than the long term effect is way worse than when a players kills another player. Of course you loose your items and a bit of money but that's all short term damage.
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Do you believe metagaming is just as serious as deathmatching?
worse. Metagaming can ruin a whole RP, DM might be a part of it or just random ruining nothing.
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Do you believe metagaming is just as serious as deathmatching?
No. Metagame ruins the rp way more than DM and so far seems way harder to fight against. Metagaming is what leads to DM most of the time as well. If metagaming wasn't allowed people would actually have to roleplay so many scenarios, which with metagaming allowed oftenly turn to deathmatch.
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Granted, if you're RPing a serious scenario with Mafia, FBI, all that good stuff... then it's good to stay in character, but if you're RPing a clown on the streets of LS, if you call someone by name it's really not the end of the world :D
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Granted, if you're RPing a serious scenario with Mafia, FBI, all that good stuff... then it's good to stay in character, but if you're RPing a clown on the streets of LS, if you call someone by name it's really not the end of the world :D
And that is exactly why there should not be strict metagame rules. Everbody is free to do as they wish.
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Granted, if you're RPing a serious scenario with Mafia, FBI, all that good stuff... then it's good to stay in character, but if you're RPing a clown on the streets of LS, if you call someone by name it's really not the end of the world :D
im completly against too serious rules against metagaming. some basics would be perfect, but then again, we will need rules clarified and written down, in case there are any added. to avoid further confusion, which seems to happen oftenly lately. people can't seem to understand the rules you know..
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We need to set precedents, not create new rules.
If you RP well, you promote RP in other people. If you don't RP, others will avoid you.
We don't even force OOC/IC as a community anyway (as far as I'm aware Gandalf's stance in this never changed) so how would you even identify meta-gaming in the strict sense?
Those who don't RP with others in mind will soon run out of people to interact with - We don't need a rule for that.
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The rules are crystal clear
Only the ones that are actually listed on the rules topic. This does not include rules that are not on that topic yet are enforced anyway.
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We need to set precedents, not create new rules.
If you RP well, you promote RP in other people. If you don't RP, others will avoid you.
We don't even force OOC/IC as a community anyway (as far as I'm aware Gandalf's stance in this never changed) so how would you even identify meta-gaming in the strict sense?
The issue of metagaming and powergaming isn't exclusive to this community. It's not a new development to roleplaying in general and it affects old shit like DnD from the 70s. Metagaming would be disallowing certain members from entering a public function because they decided to use /groups and use it to their advantage. Metagaming would be a kidnapped player stating their location to his allies via /gm. This cannot and should not be acceptable as it is repugnant roleplay.
OOC and IC have to exist in the world of roleplay to prevent people from pulling dumb shit out of their asses such as those stated above. How else do we know where one's character begins and one's character ends? You cannot have roleplay without it. Can we live with a public chat and /gm on our server? Of course, and they should stay. It just shouldn't be used for metagaming and shouldn't be removed because people use it for nefarious purposes.
TL:DR: Metagaming is as bad as cheating and shouldn't be allowed. OOC/IC needs to be enforced to avoid fourth wall breaking that results in metagaming. Keep /p and /gm but establish them OOC and /cb, /l, /s, /ad as IC.
If you need further convincing on why it's bad, here you go (https://thedmblog.com/2015/07/25/metagaming-and-how-it-kills/).
Those who don't RP with others in mind will soon run out of people to interact with - We don't need a rule for that.
Except those people can just claim that you're avoiding roleplay and get you into trouble,
And another thing, why do people still join the server to not roleplay? That's like joining "General Discussion" on TeamSpeak and saying they don't want to talk. Go fuck off somewhere else.
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Except those people can just claim that you're avoiding roleplay and get you into trouble,
I could swear I just said we need a precedent, not lots of rules.
Anyway, be realistic. If you see someone's name you know will not interact with you, are you going to carry on moving toward them?
Argonath was fine for years without it - I'm not sure quite where we lost our way but as far as I see it we should be moving back to that model.
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I could swear I just said we need a precedent, not lots of rules.
To have a precedent, you need an example of somebody being punished for it. For that to happen, you need a rule or this will happen:
This does not include rules that are not on that topic yet are enforced anyway.
You don't need to add that many rules. You could also take the current rules and just word them more effectively, which should happen. Adding more rules doesn't necessarily mean that the server will turn into a heavy RP server, nor does it mean that it will stop being fun. I'm not sure where you or anyone is getting this notion.
Anyway, be realistic. If you see someone's name you know will not interact with you, are you going to carry on moving toward them?
The thing is, why join the server if you're not going to interact? The whole point of the server is to roleplay.
Argonath was fine for years without it - I'm not sure quite where we lost our way but as far as I see it we should be moving back to that model.
I'm not sure what people keep talking about when they say that Argonath has lost its way. It has improved (namely roleplay), yes, but when did it lose its way? What was this "way" people are talking about? I'm asking as a player that started in MTA:VC.
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I am completely against any additional rules.
The reason so many people played Argonath is because it's a "World of it's own". Anyone could do their style of roleplay; be it goofy, or dead-serious. Sometimes both. This freedom is what always made Argonath entertaining.. Clowns, hobos, pizza delivery, hotdog stands (I miss you, Honingsenf)... Creativity!
No, please.
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Right, but how does adding rules remove the ability of people being
Clowns, hobos, pizza delivery, hotdog stands
?
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Right, but how does adding rules remove the ability of people being?
It doesn't, but it will make such characters feel... stuck-up.
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It doesn't, but it will make such characters feel... stuck-up.
Umm...what?
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I know what Leon is getting at. It's the same thing that made me feel inclined to go off and RP with imaginative guys like Jcstodds and GiacJr.
The rule should be unnecessary. It can easily be player managed. If you don't like how a player RPs, you don't RP with them again, its a relatively simple concept.
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I know what Leon is getting at. It's the same thing that made me feel inclined to go off and RP with imaginative guys like Jcstodds and GiacJr.
The rule should be unnecessary. It can easily be player managed. If you don't like how a player RPs, you don't RP with them again, its a relatively simple concept.
Why not just have a rule that everybody can see instead of having to manually manage it? That's what I'm not understanding. Instead of writing it for everybody to see, you think it's better to just have an admin tell them that it's not allowed every time. It seems very regressive and stubborn especially since it's just for the sake of having a slightly smaller rules list.
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Why not just have a rule that everybody can see instead of having to manually manage it? That's what I'm not understanding. Instead of writing it for everybody to see, you think it's better to just have an admin tell them that it's not allowed every time. It seems very regressive and stubborn for the sake of having a slightly smaller rules list.
Absolutely, I agree on this point. Enforce the rules that are clearly written for everyone to see. If rules can be more intelligently written to result in a simpler/smaller set of rules to follow then it would be preferable.
At the moment we have that many rules in place (written and unwritten) that it would be awkward to read them all ingame, but that's for new HQ to start reviewing (and indeed they probably already have started).
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Why not just have a rule that everybody can see instead of having to manually manage it? That's what I'm not understanding. Instead of writing it for everybody to see, you think it's better to just have an admin tell them that it's not allowed every time. It seems very regressive and stubborn for the sake of having a slightly smaller rules list.
Completely agree with you on that, it'll make everybody's in-game experience much better.
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The type of freedom and uniqueness is what made me join Argonath. If MG,PG,OOC,IC were added into the server, then Argonath is no more special to me, it's just like the other HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of RP servers.I wish that none of these rules get added, because Argonath is so special the way it is now.
Sure, low PB, but the Marketing Team is not dead(I know that because I am a part of it). But will the RP rules fix it? Most likely will not.
When newbies join the server, it will be just like any RP server so they will get bored and leave, but from the respones I got from a few newbies, they all said that they really like this place.(Like Katherine_Reid). Ask yourselves, do you really want PG,MG,IC,OOC and destroy the uniqueness of the server and let it be like the other huge ammount of RP servers?
But the thing you people should also get, I am SURE, that if these rules are added, some guy or a group of people will start calling for more rules/stricter RP/more enforcement on RP, which would make me really angered, but sad too.
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The type of freedom and uniqueness is what made me join Argonath. If MG,PG,OOC,IC were added into the server, then Argonath is no more special to me, it's just like the other HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of RP servers.I wish that none of these rules get added, because Argonath is so special the way it is now.
The reason why just every other roleplay server has these things is because they're established roleplay standards. Having said things integrated into the server won't change much as majority of the people already comply with this system. Most people are also adhering to these laws without even knowing it. For example, we all agree that PM isn't roleplay. We agree that public chat isn't roleplay either. The people posting at the beginning of the thread just want them to be "set in stone" to clear misconceptions or misunderstandings.
When newbies join the server, it will be just like any RP server so they will get bored and leave, but from the respones I got from a few newbies, they all said that they really like this place.(Like Katherine_Reid). Ask yourselves, do you really want PG,MG,IC,OOC and destroy the uniqueness of the server and let it be like the other huge ammount of RP servers?
If somebody leaves, it won't be because of MG, PG, OOC, or IC. It'll be because they'll be bored there's nothing to do, there's no players online to interact with, or they're getting shooed away. Veterans would be leaving because of disagreements with leadership, stagnant development cycles, or toxicity. The forums are very active yet the servers have been dead until very recently.
But the thing you people should also get, I am SURE, that if these rules are added, some guy or a group of people will start calling for more rules/stricter RP/more enforcement on RP, which would make me really angered, but sad too.
We'll be here to stop it. A lot of us don't want it to become a strict RP server. We just want there to be clear established roleplay boundaries. Boundaries that won't limit people from being
Clowns, hobos, pizza delivery, hotdog stands
. Boundaries that will push people towards quality roleplay that won't end with a metagamer trying to implement his win mentality or somebody powergaming his way out of an obviously shit situation. Boundaries where somebody doesn't do "/me is bulletproof" or "/em The windows would be bulletproof" to avoid interaction or losing. That doesn't mean we're becoming a heavy roleplay server. It just means we want some decent standards so everybody can have an enjoyable time.
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text
k.
The Marketing Team is working these days, and we have plans, but they need time to get worked on. If any players have any suggestions towards us, leave me a PM, since I am really active on the forum.
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So how does
The Marketing Team
relate to
roleplay interaction, and how do you imagine the level of roleplay?
or
a plan on what kind of a server we all want to play at
?
Don't enter the topic and derail it for no reason, please.
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Lots of interesting opinions. I really wanna know how the majority of the players feel about metagaming, since that's the number one issue apparently.
I'll add a poll to the topic, and everyone can vote for it.
This is not an effort to push some decision based on the poll, yet just to have a clear image on how do people feel about it.
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There's a difference in forbidding it and discouraging it in serious RP.
As a blunt yes/no answer to having a rule in place, I'd support not having it as a rule. Players can enforce it themselves.
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It is still pretty unclear what people want, and that makes it impossible to make it a rule.
And then there is the statement that people want rules but not enforcement. That is in itself laughable.
If you make anything a rule, it must be enforceable, and must be neforced.
When you can not enforce it, do not make it a rule.
Now metagaming seems to be more than the example of using the name tag of a person in rp conversation or looking at the health bar and asking if he is allright.
Metagaming which people are against seems to be using the scripts and other out-of-rp information to gain an advantage in RP.
Unfortunately that can never be enforced. Any complaint would take too much time to search in logs, and to halt roleplay to handle such complaints would hurt it more as to just play around it.
Everything we do should be focused on roleplay, and mixing it with other things makes it more interesting.
If your group has a meeting you can go to Skype or TS, but you might as well get together in game and hold it RP style. Sure not everything spoken about will be RP, but it will give a much better vibe as doing the metagaming through TeamSpeak so that admins can not find it in chatlogs.
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It is still pretty unclear what people want, and that makes it impossible to make it a rule.
And then there is the statement that people want rules but not enforcement. That is in itself laughable.
If you make anything a rule, it must be enforceable, and must be neforced.
When you can not enforce it, do not make it a rule.
Now metagaming seems to be more than the example of using the name tag of a person in rp conversation or looking at the health bar and asking if he is allright.
Metagaming which people are against seems to be using the scripts and other out-of-rp information to gain an advantage in RP.
Unfortunately that can never be enforced. Any complaint would take too much time to search in logs, and to halt roleplay to handle such complaints would hurt it more as to just play around it.
Everything we do should be focused on roleplay, and mixing it with other things makes it more interesting.
If your group has a meeting you can go to Skype or TS, but you might as well get together in game and hold it RP style. Sure not everything spoken about will be RP, but it will give a much better vibe as doing the metagaming through TeamSpeak so that admins can not find it in chatlogs.
How come they are outruled on a lot of other servers and it doesn't halt RPs? Nor does it make it hard to RP
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What most of people want to know is, are they allowed to /pm their friends 'HELP ME I AM KIDNAPPED' and will they be banned for doing it. That has happened in past, yet apparently there are no rules to define whether is that allowed or not.
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There's a difference in forbidding it and discouraging it in serious RP.
As a blunt yes/no answer to having a rule in place, I'd support not having it as a rule. Players can enforce it themselves.
I agree with you, but that means staying in the gray area. And we're withness few bans based on admins judgment of that gray area. That's the problem.
They've called it 'disregarding roleplay' but in reality, its nothing else then metagaming.
What most of people want to know is, are they allowed to /pm their friends 'HELP ME I AM KIDNAPPED' and will they be banned for doing it. That has happened in past, yet apparently there are no rules to define whether is that allowed or not.
This. Even tho its a funny example, people got banned for using /area, or telling their location via /pm/gm..
And if you saw our bans, you'll see we got banned for actually roleplaying tracking down Kenji with a gps tracker chip under his tattoo that we also roleplayed injecting in.
These are all examples of gray areas, and I think we need to define it, one way or the other.
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It doesn't have to be rules. But we absolutely need GUIDELINES and definitions of what is allowed and what is not. That should help clear away any doubts of whether something is allowed or not, which = less bans = more players = better server.
Unwritten rules are not something we need. And to those who say we don't want a jungle of rules, think again. Because having so many unwritten rules that you can't find in the forum ( even search is broken ), it makes it more like a jungle of rules, and no one can remember them all.
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Even tho its a funny example, people got banned for using /area, or telling their location via /pm/gm..
Banned for using /area... Oh how things have evolved over the 10 years o.O
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How come they are outruled on a lot of other servers and it doesn't halt RPs? Nor does it make it hard to RP
I have no idea how it is now, in the past other servers had very different policies that were clearly inequal.
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What most of people want to know is, are they allowed to /pm their friends 'HELP ME I AM KIDNAPPED' and will they be banned for doing it. That has happened in past, yet apparently there are no rules to define whether is that allowed or not.
the first admin who bans for that wil have to write an unban request.
That does not mean I approve of people doing this, just it is not reason to ban them.
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the first admin who bans for that wil have to write an unban request.
That does not mean I approve of people doing this, just it is not reason to ban them.
Then unban half the fucking banned people right now
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Then unban half the fucking banned people right now
They are
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the first admin who bans for that wil have to write an unban request.
That does not mean I approve of people doing this, just it is not reason to ban them.
Im at work atm so im using phone. I can't find the topics made by teddy or devin or both regarding using /pm and other 'non rp' methods to communicate and general quallity of the roleplay while in a scenario. I am not sure what was conclusion but if i remember well there were several punishments based on quallity of roleplay.
I support their desicion to add such rules, but now it's on you to either stand behind choices made by people you set to run the server or make clear such rules shall not be enforced by staff. We all need that.
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Im at work atm so im using phone. I can't find the topics made by teddy or devin or both regarding using /pm and other 'non rp' methods to communicate and general quallity of the roleplay while in a scenario. I am not sure what was conclusion but if i remember well there were several punishments based on quallity of roleplay.
I support their desicion to add such rules, but now it's on you to either stand behind choices made by people you set to run the server or make clear such rules shall not be enforced by staff. We all need that.
Script abuse is a tule that has always been in place and can still be used for punishment. Quality of roleplay is subjective and there for can not be a reason for punishment.
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the first admin who bans for that wil have to write an unban request.
That does not mean I approve of people doing this, just it is not reason to ban them.
What would be an appropriate level of punishment for someone who used non roleplay means (such as PM, group message or other platforms like skype) to call their friends for help after the said person has had their roleplay communication equipments seized?
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Some of the bans in place which stated "Disregard of quality RP" were more-so DM, or script abuse. This ban reason seemed to have become popular with some admins, as if they were trying to prove a point.
What would be an appropriate level of punishment for someone who used non roleplay means (such as PM, group message or other platforms like skype) to call their friends for help after the said person has had their roleplay communication equipments seized?
Assuming there was a specific rule in place, written down and enforced... I would personally say a warning or kick at most based on a first offence to be quite honest.
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Script abuse is a tule that has always been in place and can still be used for punishment. Quality of roleplay is subjective and there for can not be a reason for punishment.
That doesn't change the fact that there were rules added regarding the quallity of roleplay. And for roleplay quallity being subjective, this might be true but that's exaftly why there are rules and guidlines to play by. To avoid chaos of whole server having their own vision of what (quallity) roleplay is and ignoring everything else.
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What would be an appropriate level of punishment for someone who used non roleplay means (such as PM, group message or other platforms like skype) to call their friends for help after the said person has had their roleplay communication equipments seized?
Being forced to sit out a 3 hour kidnapping to be killed by a freecop.
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Being forced to sit out a 3 hour kidnapping to be killed by a freecop.
:lol:
But the kidnap wouldn't last 3 hours since obviously the kidnapped persons' friends will log in and immediately start a shootout.
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Those few times I have logged into the server during, lets say past year i haven't actually felt welcomed to roleplay. Also the fact that I know that I have been actually rulebreaking by just not doing anything, beside talking in public chat and with friends and strangers alike, because apparently roleplay is mandatory!
Setting my rulebreaking aside, why won't I roleplay? There are two main reasons. First is lack of diversity in roleplays that people do approach me. As I still play with female skin the roleplays I get is people driving to me, calling me sugartits and asking "how much?" and if I dissapoint them, they want to kidnap me. Sick and tired of it.
Second reason I don't do that much roleplay these days is if those rare individuals who do not actually want to kidnap me approach me, they actually don't want to roleplay but rather they want me to play out their script, which they will tell me in OOC. My input there is zero. Sorry man but it takes two to tango and I want to have a say in what happens to my character.
Also these days I don't actually see any actual shooting or action between players, mostly because it seems that due to so many walls of rules in order to be able to shoot someone without admin interference I would have to go to city hall with the person who I want to shoot so that we could sign a paper to set the exact location, how many bullets will be used and what will happen, when one of us dies.
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:lol:
But the kidnap wouldn't last 3 hours since obviously the kidnapped persons' friends will log in and immediately start a shootout.
That is why the punishment is the scenario without friends logging in.....
Those few times I have logged into the server during, lets say past year i haven't actually felt welcomed to roleplay. Also the fact that I know that I have been actually rulebreaking by just not doing anything, beside talking in public chat and with friends and strangers alike, because apparently roleplay is mandatory!
Setting my rulebreaking aside, why won't I roleplay? There are two main reasons. First is lack of diversity in roleplays that people do approach me. As I still play with female skin the roleplays I get is people driving to me, calling me sugartits and asking "how much?" and if I dissapoint them, they want to kidnap me. Sick and tired of it.
Second reason I don't do that much roleplay these days is if those rare individuals who do not actually want to kidnap me approach me, they actually don't want to roleplay but rather they want me to play out their script, which they will tell me in OOC. My input there is zero. Sorry man but it takes two to tango and I want to have a say in what happens to my character.
Also these days I don't actually see any actual shooting or action between players, mostly because it seems that due to so many walls of rules in order to be able to shoot someone without admin interference I would have to go to city hall with the person who I want to shoot so that we could sign a paper to set the exact location, how many bullets will be used and what will happen, when one of us dies.
Hmm... is there any chance that that necklace it still laying somewhere in Vice City?
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It is still pretty unclear what people want, and that makes it impossible to make it a rule.
I fail to see how this isn't clear.
(https://i.imgur.com/ljisxyN.png)
And then there is the statement that people want rules but not enforcement. That is in itself laughable.
Nobody said that. The only person who said anything about enforcing was Julio and he clearly said
Enforce the rules
Metagaming which people are against seems to be using the scripts and other out-of-rp information to gain an advantage in RP.
Unfortunately that can never be enforced. Any complaint would take too much time to search in logs, and to halt roleplay to handle such complaints would hurt it more as to just play around it.
I don't think it takes a log check to find out how a group of mafiosos just happened to find their kin tied up at Aldea Malvada by an opposing group. There will be players that will always play close to the boundaries but the metagaming we want gone is clear as day.
Everything we do should be focused on roleplay, and mixing it with other things makes it more interesting.
If your group has a meeting you can go to Skype or TS, but you might as well get together in game and hold it RP style. Sure not everything spoken about will be RP, but it will give a much better vibe as doing the metagaming through TeamSpeak so that admins can not find it in chatlogs.
Groups tend to do meetings like this in the game through roleplay, even if they are on TeamSpeak. A lot of groups tend to post these roleplays in their group topic too. Nobody metagames. The only thing that happens if people making fun of their mistakes in writing as friendly banter. Metagaming doesn't occur.
Some of the bans in place which stated "Disregard of quality RP" were more-so DM, or script abuse. This ban reason seemed to have become popular with some admins, as if they were trying to prove a point.
They were trying to set precedents, which is what somebody earlier wanted.
I have no idea how it is now, in the past other servers had very different policies that were clearly inequal.
I've already stated earlier that metagaming isn't just a problem in just the SAMP community. Not every server has the rule up-front because the player base is decent enough to not cheat through metagaming. That's what metagaming is: cheating. If players were constantly doing it, I would make a clear rule so people would stop their bullshit. The more populated servers have this rule because I can assure that somebody went over their character's ability through metagaming and/or powergaming.
Text.
Name some names so we can start dealing with these undesirables. I'm up for kidnapping RP and whatnot but that shit just sounds awful.
Banned for using /area... Oh how things have evolved over the 10 years o.O
In the olden days, things would often result in a shootout and people didn't care. We're trying to move past that.
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I believe metagaming has always been forbidden, only cops has been allowed it when I was playing. I guess thing's changed since then.
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the first admin who bans for that wil have to write an unban request.
There have been members banned or otherwise punished for metagaming-related incidents. For example Sam, Cofiliano, and Kenji were banned for using /gm to locate Kenji during a kidnap by Mikro ("Disregard for quality RP"), however they are now unbanned and the banning admin has stepped down. I cannot think of other specific incidents, but I am aware that some admins get involved if you do not send an SMS or call someone when requesting backup. This is one of those "imaginary rules" I spoke of in my previous post.
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There have been members banned or otherwise punished for metagaming-related incidents. For example Sam, Cofiliano, and Kenji were banned for using /gm to locate Kenji during a kidnap by Mikro ("Disregard for quality RP"), however they are now unbanned and the banning admin has stepped down. I cannot think of other specific incidents, but I am aware that some admins get involved if you do not send an SMS or call someone when requesting backup. This is one of those "imaginary rules" I spoke of in my previous post.
There is far more than just this. This happened for a long time.
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There have been members banned or otherwise punished for metagaming-related incidents. For example Sam, Cofiliano, and Kenji were banned for using /gm to locate Kenji during a kidnap by Mikro ("Disregard for quality RP"), however they are now unbanned and the banning admin has stepped down. I cannot think of other specific incidents, but I am aware that some admins get involved if you do not send an SMS or call someone when requesting backup. This is one of those "imaginary rules" I spoke of in my previous post.
That precedent was set by the previous HQ team and the so called savior of Argonath Teddy not Mikro. http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=115195.0
So stop shitting and putting bullshit like this all on him since he isn't the one responsible for it.
You don't like the changes they made for what they thought would be better for RP? Go debate them about it but stop putting all the blame on a guy who took a position for a month and by some miracle changed the whole system.
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That precedent was set by the previous HQ team and the so called savior of Argonath Teddy not Mikro. http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=115195.0
So stop shitting and putting bullshit like this all on him since he isn't the one responsible for it.
Yes, yes I did implement a rule which promotes more roleplay than it does discourage it. I accept responsibility for trying to help. I'm no savior either so idk where that comes from. There's no person that can save Argonath from itself. I've said it over and over, the players need to save it.
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Yes, yes I did implement a rule which promotes more roleplay than it does discourage it. I accept responsibility for trying to help. I'm no savior either so idk where that comes from. There's no person that can save Argonath from itself. I've said it over and over, the players need to save it.
Yeah, you and the rest of the team. I'm tired of reading Mikro did this or that when he didn't do anything or made any major change to any policy. What he did do was keep scripting for ungrateful dickheads so they could enjoy the game and try to be as reasonable as possible but clearly that doesn't work on Argonath.
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why u so mad fbi
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Some things just can't be changed.
why u so mad fbi
Just stop already. Grow up.
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Yeah, you and the rest of the team. I'm tired of reading Mikro did this or that when he didn't do anything or made any major change to any policy. What he did do was keep scripting for ungrateful dickheads so they could enjoy the game and try to be as reasonable as possible but clearly that doesn't work on Argonath.
Can't tell if you're mad at me/us or not. I don't think Mikro did a bad job and it was me who vouched for him to replace me. I think anyone who shits on Mikro should be banned to be honest. You people have no idea the amount of pressure we get put under. You have no idea the amount of work that goes in, or how complicated this actually is. You think it's as simple as baking a cake. It isn't. Show some appreciation. He made some mistakes and the powers that be reacted. I've always also said, mostly internally, that Argonath is like Game of Thrones sometimes when it comes to it's politics. You play or you die. Simple as that.
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Just stop already. Grow up.
im too young to be a grown up
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im too young to be a grown up
Your behaviour and others that behave like you are the reason the community struggles to progress. Hopefully your group leaders will eventually deal with people that behave so immaturely.
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Oh boy... Without saying I (dis)agree with anyone here...
Common sense truly is lacking in many.
We'll see 10 pages further what happened. ;)
3 more pages and I guess we've been ...productive?
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Oh boy... Without saying I (dis)agree with anyone here...
3 more pages and I guess we've been ...productive?
You were foolish to think this community could be productive. I guess we both made the same mistake :D
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You were foolish to think this community could be productive. I guess we both made the same mistake :D
No, I actually predicted this would happen, but some were more naive. :)
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No, I actually predicted this would happen, but some were more naive. :)
There's always those few who place faith where it shouldn't be.
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There's always those few who place faith where it shouldn't be.
Poor souls.
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lmfao have u ever seen me complaining about anything or anyone? no, im a nice guy that likes to fuck around sometimes
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That precedent was set by the previous HQ team and the so called savior of Argonath Teddy not Mikro. http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=115195.0
So stop shitting and putting bullshit like this all on him since he isn't the one responsible for it.
You don't like the changes they made for what they thought would be better for RP? Go debate them about it but stop putting all the blame on a guy who took a position for a month and by some miracle changed the whole system.
Please quote which part in my post that I said Mikro set the precedent. The only thing I correctly accuse Mikro of doing was being the banning administrator regarding a rule that is not officially listed. I listed that example only because it is the most recent incident that I can point to where an unlisted rule has been enforced. It just so happens that they are members of my group.
I have also said on multiple other posts that I disapprove of enforcing rules that are not clearly stated in the official rules (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=100219.0). In fact I think I remember saying something along the lines of "These rules that were created by Teddy on page 9 of a topic that's about 5 pages back on SA:MP general should not be enforced by admins" on a separate topic.
I'm down.
Leon_Gvardia
Point of improvement: The Rules
-If it's not in the official rules (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=100219.0), admins cannot ban for it. There are too many broad grey area rules based on comments made by Teddy in topics from 10 pages back, or things said by Gandalf in the "Ask Developers Topic." Write it down somewhere we can all see it.
-If a new rule or interpretation of a rule has been created somewhere on the forums or otherwise, it needs to be clearly broadcasted for everyone to see. Players should not be expected to read every page of every topic in the SA:MP boards looking for "common sense."
I have never said that I was okay or not okay with these rules. In fact I support attempts being made by HQ members either current or previous to enforce a roleplay environment, even if on some occasions they have negative consequences. The only part I'm not okay with is rules being enforced when they're not listed.
If you have a personal problem with me, Arslan, you can contact me via forum PM or my skype listed on my forum profile. Otherwise stop shitting on people on the forum who happen to wear the tag of a criminal group.
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lmfao have u ever seen me complaining about anything or anyone? no, im a nice guy that likes to fuck around sometimes
Because you belong under the Chief of all moaners so you don't need to do any, even writes your unban requests for you. But anyways I said what I wanted. Have fun.
The only thing I correctly accuse Mikro of doing was being the banning administrator regarding a rule that is not officially listed.
Yeah well you correctly shouldn't because he didn't make the rule he only enforces them which were set prior to his appointment. Which is his job as an administrator.
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lmfao have u ever seen me complaining about anything or anyone? no, im a nice guy that likes to fuck around sometimes
Wrong topic to fuck around in, go to the groups and families board or even forum games instead.
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Because you belong under the Chief of all moaners so you don't need to do any, even writes your unban requests for you. But anyways I said what I wanted. Have fun.
You should save some of that salt for when the roads get icy.
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Because you belong under the Chief of all moaners so you don't need to do any, even writes your unban requests for you. But anyways I said what I wanted. Have fun.
pahahahahahaha denied sir i havent been banned for years and i need no one to write unban appeals for me, Im honest above anything else
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why u so mad gvardia
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im not mad
/me wears a mask
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You literally come into this thread gung-ho for no reason and spout
Go debate them about it but stop putting all the blame on a guy who took a position for a month and by some miracle changed the whole system.
for no reason. Everybody was being civil until you came in. Stop derailing this topic. We're actually having a pretty decent discussion here.
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Let's not derail the topic any more Pedro, i expected nothing less than this kind of attitude from these folks since their friend Matthew got banned again.
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You literally come into this thread gung-ho for no reason and spoutedfor no reason. Everybody was being civil until you came in. Stop derailing this topic. We're actually having a pretty decent discussion here.
I am actually on the topic and giving my opinion of the exact policy which was used to ban those who made this topic in attempt to change it. Just making sure you moan at the right people. ;)
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Yet you claim that people are
shitting and putting bullshit like this all on him
when it was just a question about a grey area? Chill the fuck out and come back when you're ready to discuss like a civil person.
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Yeah well you correctly shouldn't because he didn't make the rule he only enforces them which were set prior to his appointment. Which is his job as an administrator.
Again, I never said he made the rule, only that he enforced a rule that isn't listed where everyone can easily see it. Learn to read. I don't have a problem with you, I don't know why you are giving me a bad attitude for simply stating facts that can be proven.
Thank you for linking to that topic where the precedent was created. It further proves my point that rules have been created and enforced without the official rule list being updated.
Pedro stop acting like an idiot on the forums.
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Again, I never said he made the rule, only that he enforced a rule that isn't listed where everyone can easily see it. Learn to read. I don't have a problem with you, I don't know why you are giving me a bad attitude for simply stating facts that can be proven.
Thank you for linking to that topic where the precedent was created. It further proves my point that rules have been created and enforced without the official rule list being updated.
Pedro stop acting like an idiot on the forums.
The only thing I correctly accuse Mikro of doing was being the banning administrator regarding a rule that is not officially listed.
No, you didn't say he created it but you're putting it on him for enforcing a rule which he has nothing to do with and was created months before he even became manager. You shouldn't be accusing a person for doing his job but accusing those who made the rule which is my point and what you're failing to understand. It is the incompetence of those who made the rule and did not put it into the official topics, not his.
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Firstly I want to point out that Gandalf did not join us on the 10th Anniversary.
As for the topic,
It would be cool if we at least tried it out, change is always welcome, maybe we'll go to better, maybe not.
Though, not many here seem to know what Powergaming and Metagaming actually is.
Just an idea to possibly take into consideration:
I recommend a thread to be created of "character development".
For example, each player creates their own topic under their IG Name. (Ex: Astaroth)
Inside the topic, a short background story and only for that player to have access to posting on the topic itself.
Rules:
A player must post screenshots at least 3 times a week from RP encounters & all topics are reviewed & judged weekly by an experienced admin/rper & rewarded with a car or some shit to whoever has the best roleplay situation.
I think it would encourage people to at least try, and kinda force them to be creative :balance:
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No, you didn't say he created it but you're putting it on him for enforcing a rule which he has nothing to do with and was created months before he even became manager. You shouldn't be accusing a person for doing his job but accusing those who made the rule which is my point and what you're failing to understand. It is the incompetence of those who made the rule and did not put it into the official topics, not his.
Okay, I understand what you're getting at. However, understand that I only listed Mikro's bans as examples, not simply to shit on Mikro.
I'm down.
Leon_Gvardia
Point of improvement: The Rules
-If it's not in the official rules (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=100219.0), admins cannot ban for it. There are too many broad grey area rules based on comments made by Teddy in topics from 10 pages back, or things said by Gandalf in the "Ask Developers Topic." Write it down somewhere we can all see it.
-If a new rule or interpretation of a rule has been created somewhere on the forums or otherwise, it needs to be clearly broadcasted for everyone to see. Players should not be expected to read every page of every topic in the SA:MP boards looking for "common sense."
There is one small thing that needs to be added, since it is enforced.
"In the spirit of roleplay, if calling for backup in a combat, kidnap, or robbery situation, it must be done in a roleplay manner. This includes:
-Calling or sending an SMS.
-Using a CBRadio.
This excludes:
-Using /p
-Using /pm
-Using /gm
If you are a victim and your methods of communication have been confiscated, you may not call for backup.
If you die in the situation, you may not call for backup after the fact to gain revenge."
If this is not going to be added to the rule list, and then added as a "Daily Message" for like two weeks in-game, then don't enforce it.
^These posts are directed at those who have created rules and failed to place them in the official rules. Please fix this issue as soon as possible.
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I am actually on the topic and giving my opinion of the exact policy which was used to ban those who made this topic in attempt to change it. Just making sure you moan at the right people. ;)
So I don't get it, you like the current gray area policy because it gets people you don't like banned, or you don't like it because it gets your friend banned as well?
I saw Matthew voted yes, I saw you wrote like 5-6 replies, some with lame provoking but alright be that way if you wish, yet you still haven't scored a point, in actually answering the question what's your opinion on the god damn subject?
And like Link pointed out, lets not derail this topic, and lets talk about the subject, not about who did what among the HQ last 6-8 months.
I actually like Astaroth idea to give it a try for like 2-3 weeks, and then make a poll and see people's reaction on it.
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No way I'm having a 3rd party review my roleplay, but you fellas enjoy :D
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Firstly I want to point out that Gandalf did not join us on the 10th Anniversary.
As for the topic,
It would be cool if we at least tried it out, change is always welcome, maybe we'll go to better, maybe not.
Though, not many here seem to know what Powergaming and Metagaming actually is.
Just an idea to possibly take into consideration:
I recommend a thread to be created of "character development".
For example, each player creates their own topic under their IG Name. (Ex: Astaroth)
Inside the topic, a short background story and only for that player to have access to posting on the topic itself.
Rules:
A player must post screenshots at least 3 times a week from RP encounters & all topics are reviewed & judged weekly by an experienced admin/rper & rewarded with a car or some shit to whoever has the best roleplay situation.
I think it would encourage people to at least try, and kinda force them to be creative :balance:
So, this: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?board=476.0 but with payment? I was going to say a blunt no, but I'm going to try and be constructive :D
I don't think your idea would work, as much as I would like to see people develop their characters, because then it will turn into an event. I can already see the rules of it:
To be eligible to win this free Turismo, you must:
- Post screenshots of your roleplay scenarios at least three times a week.
- Do not bump your topic, every topic will be checked by the judges.
- Try to be as creative as possible.
- Do not call people out on their RP, everyone has their own RP methods!
- Last but not least, have fun!
We already have the topic, if we add a reward at the end, oh boy. Most people will just post there, everytime they make three /me's and hope to win. But by the time the event ends, no one will look at the board anymore. And that will totally kill it's purpose. And I don't think a lot of people have the time to post screens/logs of their roleplays three times a week. We should instead focus on keeping players IN GAME.
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Firstly I want to point out that Gandalf did not join us on the 10th Anniversary.
It's illogical to say that every community and venture is always run by its original owner. Provided the delegated leadership team feel as strongly about the community as the owners do, it's fine.
Also, he has a family... think of what the time was anyway. The date we advertise is the 28th, that doesn't mean players have to login at midnight in order to celebrate, in fact this is the first time in my 7 years here that I've even done so!
But on topic, I would prefer a rule not to be implemented about this personally, but even if implemented I suspect it is only required for the minority anyway. That being said, if metagaming was specifically forbidden, a couple of groups (including the FBI) would have to have a slight shift in policy ;)
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But on topic, I would prefer a rule not to be implemented about this personally, but even if implemented I suspect it is only required for the minority anyway.
Either way, a rule regarding it would help clear any misunderstanding. It would help clear out those infamous grey areas that cause conflict. It seems majority are for the removal of it considering the poll.
That being said, if metagaming was specifically forbidden, a couple of groups (including the FBI) would have to have a slight shift in policy ;)
That wouldn't be bad thing, especially since it'd be changing for the better.
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And please, by all means don't only count on metagaming. It's just a rule that I think will cover some grey areas. We still have a lot of unwritten rules.
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The important part is... either way, whether or not a rule is implemented, people should try not to be offended by the result or take a knee jerk reaction to the outcome.
Realistically, the RP will change very minimally, if at all in 95% of cases.
If a rule is implemented like this, and I was RPing a clown and called you by name despite you RPing a stranger... and somebody reported me for it, how should I be punished, and would you expect an administrator to go crawling through chat logs dating back weeks and months to deduce whether I should have known who you are?
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I don't mind the rule because people then won't be allowed to just come to a black premier and say "yo feds" just because the name tag says Arslan or Matthew :hah:
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So let me get it straight, most of the server want to forbid players who do use meta and powergaming instead of rather just letting them play in their own style without affecting you or your own roleplay? Why not just make a mental note how some people roleplay and then decide if you want to role play with them again or not instead?
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Why not just make a mental note how some people roleplay and then decide if you want to role play with them again or not instead?
People interpreted previous HQ's enforcement of RP as a limitation in this respect. I'm not encouraging this rule to be put in place, but in previous weeks/months, players were essentially not allowed to "deny" RP with somebody they didn't like RPing with. No idea how current HQ intends to handle that part, it's a difficult one though.
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People interpreted previous HQ's enforcement of RP as a limitation in this respect. I'm not encouraging this rule to be put in place, but in previous weeks/months, players were essentially not allowed to "deny" RP with somebody they didn't like RPing with. No idea how current HQ intends to handle that part, it's a difficult one though.
Oh I know and I have had a lengthy discussion about it with Gandalf in another topic before and I still find it wrong. I find it that if you don't want to role play with someone you should be able to polietly decline the offer.
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So let me get it straight, most of the server want to forbid players who do use meta and powergaming instead of rather just letting them play in their own style without affecting you or your own roleplay? Why not just make a mental note how some people roleplay and then decide if you want to role play with them again or not instead?
How does metagaming and powergaming not affect a roleplay? The main purpose powergaming and metagaming is to cheat the scenario at the expense of other's enjoyment.
People interpreted previous HQ's enforcement of RP as a limitation in this respect. I'm not encouraging this rule to be put in place, but in previous weeks/months, players were essentially not allowed to "deny" RP with somebody they didn't like RPing with. No idea how current HQ intends to handle that part, it's a difficult one though.
The main aim of MG/PG rules are to help create a reasonably equal playing field for those involved to avoid unreasonable unfairness.
I don't mind the rule because people then won't be allowed to just come to a black premier and say "yo feds" just because the name tag says Arslan or Matthew :hah:
Exactly. The implementation of these rule benefits everybody.
The important part is... either way, whether or not a rule is implemented, people should try not to be offended by the result or take a knee jerk reaction to the outcome.
Well, the community knows what it wants. To go against it for the sake of some delusions of being unique just for not having universally acknowledged universal roleplay standards is quite frankly retarded. There's no other way to put it.
Realistically, the RP will change very minimally, if at all in 95% of cases.
Let's make it 99%/100%. And let's make it easier to remove those that constantly cheating roleplay scenarios at everybody else's expense.
If a rule is implemented like this, and I was RPing a clown and called you by name despite you RPing a stranger... and somebody reported me for it, how should I be punished, and would you expect an administrator to go crawling through chat logs dating back weeks and months to deduce whether I should have known who you are?
I'm not sure why you think that the server will suddenly turn hostile for these rules being implemented when you yourself have stated that.
RP will change very minimally
Why would an administrator need to crawl through chat logs for something a single screenshot piece of evidence could provide? That seems unnecessary and stupid. If somebody's going to report you for something like that, they'd just need to provide a screenshot. Not only that but I doubt that players wanting these rules are complaining about these scenarios.
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Oh I know and I have had a lengthy discussion about it with Gandalf in another topic before and I still find it wrong. I find it that if you don't want to role play with someone you should be able to polietly decline the offer.
I agree. The problem is those who decline RP simply because they don't want to be the victim. There's no shame at all in RPing being kidnapped, or being slapped around a bit, embrace it and you can usually slip a few bits of humour in there (falling over and accidentally headbutting a kidnappers testicles and such).
There are always grey areas...
How do you define DM? "Killing without RP/Reason." - Then how do you define whether a reason is good enough? If I'm RPing a mafia character and walk up to a person, and without speaking, shoot them in the head, is that DM? Now if we roll back 4 weeks and see that the person I killed, shot and killed my brother... is it DM now?
Even if we say "no metagaming," there's still a grey area as metagaming can be interpreted differently by different people. A more generic rule would be a compromise, saying "No using OOC information to give yourself a significant advantage in RP." But then how do you define a significant advantage?
The real problem is players getting upset because they're killed, or don't like an RP scenario. The easiest way to fix this is to allow players to refuse RP in some circumstances. Also, if players didn't purposely ride the edges of the rules and the system, it wouldn't be a problem.
Link replied whilst I was posting this, so will add replies below:
Why would an administrator need to crawl through chat logs for something a single screenshot piece of evidence could provide? That seems unnecessary and stupid. If somebody's going to report you for something like that, they'd just need to provide a screenshot. Not only that but I doubt that players wanting these rules are complaining about these scenarios.
Indeed, I do agree with this point. The reporting player should have evidence. Not moan when administration don't want to look through the logs...
I didn't mention uniqueness, don't imply my thought pattern is retarded please either, I take offence to that.
I didn't say the server was hostile, and that specific example just came from the top of my head so may not be a good representation.
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Apologies for the double post...
I retract my statement when I mentioned "retarded thought pattern," I re-read your reply and realise that's not what was said at all, I misread your comment... :D
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How does metagaming and powergaming not affect a roleplay? The main purpose powergaming and metagaming is to cheat the scenario at the expense of other's enjoyment.
If you roleplay in Los Santos with your friends and I roleplay with my friends in Las Venturas which involves meta and powergaming, tell me, how does my playing affect you?
I agree. The problem is those who decline RP simply because they don't want to be the victim. There's no shame at all in RPing being kidnapped, or being slapped around a bit, embrace it and you can usually slip a few bits of humour in there (falling over and accidentally headbutting a kidnappers testicles and such).
There are always grey areas...
How do you define DM? "Killing without RP/Reason." - Then how do you define whether a reason is good enough? If I'm RPing a mafia character and walk up to a person, and without speaking, shoot them in the head, is that DM? Now if we roll back 4 weeks and see that the person I killed, shot and killed my brother... is it DM now?
Even if we say "no metagaming," there's still a grey area as metagaming can be interpreted differently by different people. A more generic rule would be a compromise, saying "No using OOC information to give yourself a significant advantage in RP." But then how do you define a significant advantage?
The real problem is players getting upset because they're killed, or don't like an RP scenario. The easiest way to fix this is to allow players to refuse RP in some circumstances. Also, if players didn't purposely ride the edges of the rules and the system, it wouldn't be a problem.
Yes there are grey areas. What I usually think is, wheter this thing would happen in GTA universe. No mafioso nor gang member would come and without a word killing me in GTA universe. If he comes and says that I was involved with the death of his brother 4 weeks ago I am already prepared to get shot and I wouldn't even mind if I get killed, but that's it. I am dead and after that is a new character for me with new name and "backstory".
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If you roleplay in Los Santos with your friends and I roleplay with my friends in Las Venturas which involves meta and powergaming, tell me, how does my playing affect you?
If I'm not roleplaying with you at the moment, I've no reason to report you for metagaming, especially since it'll most likely happen without me knowing or it even affecting me. Are you cheating and putting me at a disadvantage? No. I'm not sure how enacting MG/PG rules is related to this. This is just twisting it to unlikely extremes.
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If I'm not roleplaying with you at the moment, I've no reason to report you for metagaming, especially since it'll most likely happen without me knowing or it even affecting me. Are you cheating and putting me at a disadvantage? No. I'm not sure how enacting MG/PG rules is related to this. This is just twisting it to unlikely extremes.
You still want to enforce a rule to me and my friends that we shouldn't use PG/MG, even though it doesn't affect you.
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You still want to enforce a rule to me and my friends that we shouldn't use PG/MG, even though it doesn't affect you.
How is meeting up with your friends putting anybody at a disadvantage, though? You're grasping at straws here.
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How does meeting up with your friends putting anybody at a disadvantage, though? You're grasping at straws here.
What meeting up? I am roleplaying with my friends and we have different views and standards to roleplaying than you and your friends, but server rules apply to everybody in the game. So what you are pushing here right now is your roleplay standards on me.
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You still want to enforce a rule to me and my friends that we shouldn't use PG/MG, even though it doesn't affect you.
I don't agree with this particular comment actually Jubin. Though we've had a "no deathmatching" rule for years, amongst close friends this happens on a semi-regular basis in situations that aren't serious. It's somewhat unwritten that there are certain rules which aren't applied provided the players involved do not have a problem with it.
"No metagaming" does imply that it's only for situations where you gain an advantage, perhaps it would be better written in a form that is more fair: "Act within the bounds of your specific RP situation"
We've always encouraged different RP situations here, so let's try and keep it that way!
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What meeting up? I am roleplaying with my friends and we have different views and standards to roleplaying than you and your friends, but server rules apply to everybody in the game. So what you are pushing here right now is your roleplay standards on me.
But how is your roleplaying affecting me in an unfair manner? You're talking about quality of roleplay here, not metagaming/powergaming.
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But how is your roleplaying affecting me in an unfair manner? You're talking about quality of roleplay here, not metagaming/powergaming.
So if I say that the same techniques like using /pm and /gm is fine by me and my friends say that it is fine by them and we use it in our roleplays it is not MG/PG, but when you use it, it is?
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So if I say that the same techniques like using /pm and /gm is fine by me and my friends say that it is fine by them and we use it in our roleplays it is not MG/PG, but when you use it, it is?
...what? What the actual fuck are saying?
I'll put it in simple terms that are hard to confuse. Please don't twist them.:
Are you cheating the roleplay situation? Are you putting other players at a disadvantage through MG/PG? No? Not a problem.
Are you? That's a problem that 70.6% (as of now) want removed.
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So if I say that the same techniques like using /pm and /gm is fine by me and my friends say that it is fine by them and we use it in our roleplays it is not MG/PG, but when you use it, it is?
Are you a degenerate?
It does not matter WHO uses it as long as it doesn't affect someone else's roleplay, if it is not used to affect the ROLEPLAY situation it is not considered MG/PG.
If Lincoln or Tony(lol) logs in after 3 months and I /pm him "yo where you at?" it isn't Metagaming that affects anyone.
If Mario Soprano does .use cannabis seeds in main chat and I use that to my adventage and go raid his field that IS Metagaming because I used OOC information to assist me ICly.
As long as I don't use it to RUIN SOMEONE ELSE'S roleplay it isn't a rulebreak.
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You guys are arguing about different rules here.
In role-playing games, metagaming is an "out of character" action where a player's character makes use of knowledge that the player is aware of but that the character is not meant to be aware of.
Lincoln is not effectively proposing a "No metagaming" rule, he is proposing a "No metagaming in order to give yourself an unfair advantage in an RP situation"
Metagaming itself is using OOC information in ANY way. You need to add the "unfair advantage bit" yourself, that's not part of the definition.
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You guys are arguing about different rules here.
Lincoln is not effectively proposing a "No metagaming" rule, he is proposing a "No metagaming in order to give yourself an unfair advantage in an RP situation"
Metagaming itself is using OOC information in ANY way. You need to add the "unfair advantage bit" yourself, that's not part of the definition.
Lovely. Honestly, you worded it better than I have. <3
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...what? What the actual fuck are saying?
I'll put it in simple terms that are hard to confuse. Please don't twist them.:
Are you cheating the roleplay situation? Are you putting other players at a disadvantage through MG/PG? No? Not a problem.
Are you? That's a problem that 70.6% (as of now) want removed.
That's the thing, I don't consider the methods that is used, cheating. So I allow those to be used to roleplay.
Also my apologizes to Cofiliano, if I have derailed the topic way too much. I think I have voiced my opinion and I am now out. See you guys in game.
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That's the thing, I don't consider the methods that is used, cheating. So I allow those to be used to roleplay.
Okay, welcome to being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and arguing. Everybody else is level-headed and can agree to it.
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That's the thing, I don't consider the methods that is used, cheating. So I allow those to be used to roleplay.
Also my apologizes to Cofiliano, if I have derailed the topic way too much. I think I have voiced my opinion and I am now out. See you guys in game.
Not derailed at all mate, you and Lincoln are just at opposite sides of the argument and the discussion you're having between the pair of you is both informative and constructive!
If the two of you were to RP together seriously, I would expect a little compromise on both sides though in order to try and make it an enjoyable affair, that's one of the beauties of this community, certainly in previous years we've tried not to carry an "elitist" card and keep our minds open to different RP styles. RPing a strict mafioso or FBI Agent would possibly require a stricter RP style, but if you're clearly RPing a corrupt agent or mafioso with a terrible sense of humour, it changes the dynamic a bit.
Flexibility guys :D
Okay, welcome to being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and arguing. Everybody else is level-headed and can agree to it.
I wouldn't say I *strictly* agree with it, as with the caveats it's not entirely different to now. We call it metagaming, OOC, IC, and all this fancy terminology, but the bottom line is: RP fairly, and to the bounds of the situation! If we have a group of players ingame that are able to do that without a rule, then that's what will keep the community fair and positive! :D
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What you're saying for the rule to be used for is fine Lincoln, but the part I'm weary of is... by introducing the "metagaming and powergaming" concept officially into the rules of Argonath, it leaves the door wide open for others to start enforcing the use of "(( ))" and other more serious RP tools. I'd like the idea of "choice" to be left with the player.
But if we could have some sort of confirmation that a rule along these guidelines would not result in us taking more steps in that "serious RP" direction, and we won't start having ban reasons like "No metagaming," then I would be in agreement of there being such rule.
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Also my apologizes to Cofiliano, if I have derailed the topic way too much. I think I have voiced my opinion and I am now out. See you guys in game.
No need Jubin, you've been constructive the whole time, stating your opinion in a civilized manner and idea about the subject.
@ Julio, welll when you talk about no metagaming, we're talking about the abusage of it to gain advantage, I think every person who voted yes is aware of that.
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We refer to it as MG and PG since that's the terminology we use to describe it on other RP communities. Just makes it easier for newcomers to understand it when coming from another roleplay server. However, "RP fairly" is a much simpler way to say it, but leaves some grey zones. I'm down with having variety as being the stereotypical NRG mafia is pretty boring. I'm an angry middle aged Scotsman on my main character, for example. I don't think that implementing "No metagaming in order to give yourself an unfair advantage in an RP situation" would hurt variety either. Honestly it seems like a nice little reminder to not be a dick about stuff.
As for OOC/IC, I don't think it'll hurt either way since, like I said, most people are already adhering to it either way. Kind of the same way our version of the MG/PG rule won't change much. It's more to clear up grey areas, especially since it has been occurring frequently as of late (referring to MG/PG).
Now, I don't think anybody asking for IC/OOC/PG/MG wants a strict realistic RP server. I, for one, just want it to be clearly written that public chat cannot be brought into a roleplay situation, or that PM isn't RP. This is also to help clear up grey areas.
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The thing is, Argonath already reached the medium roleplay standard, as in most of the people insist and wants to have a medium roleplay server, not serious nor light roleplay server.
as for OOC/IC, again, 90 percent of people use /em for out of roleplay chats during roleplays, so its something that's already implemented by the players, and there's no need to force it.
Tho on Argonath we called it out of roleplay and in roleplay, stated by Gandalf back in 2010 :)
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as for OOC/IC, again, 90 percent of people use /em for out of roleplay chats during roleplays, so its something that's already implemented by the players, and there's no need to force it.
Tho on Argonath we called it out of roleplay and in roleplay, stated by Gandalf back in 2010 :)
Exactly what I'm saying. It's not changing much. Just asking for it to be written down. We can keep calling it in/out-roleplay if we want but it's just alienating us as we're not using commonly accepted terminology like OOC/IC. We don't need a /OOC command. Just need to state that /l, /s, /cb, /ad and /em (used to describe things in third person) are roleplay commands and that /pm, and /p are non-roleplay commands in the rules.
Repeating myself again, it won't change much since most of us already adhere to it.
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The thing is, Argonath already reached the medium roleplay standard, as in most of the people insist and wants to have a medium roleplay server, not serious nor light roleplay server.
as for OOC/IC, again, 90 percent of people use /em for out of roleplay chats during roleplays, so its something that's already implemented by the players, and there's no need to force it.
Tho on Argonath we called it out of roleplay and in roleplay, stated by Gandalf back in 2010 :)
That's funny, I use /em as mentioned by Lincoln, to describe the environment, I think people have only used /em for "out of roleplay" items since it has a few extra brackets in it... :rolleyes:
The only group I've seen use /p or the forum as IC is the FBI to be fair.
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/em primary usage is to describe the environment, but since the out of roleplay chat is lacking, people started using it for that as well, hence today almost everyone is doing it.
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Ah, if I'm RPing with people who prefer the use of brackets I tend to just stick a couple of brackets on the end for good measure, don't tend to bother otherwise :D
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I myself have used /em for non descriptive purposes on multiple occasions. I think it's okay if we allow people to swap between them if needed. It's better to do that instead of having to /pm every player individually for a question relating to the roleplay, especially since many players are already doing this when a situation arises.
As for your other point, I'm not sure I've ever seen the FBI use /p as roleplay but I do know that they use the forums in roleplay but do so in the roleplay sections (courts, etc). That's latter is honestly fine and hasn't been a problem for anybody. It should be kept the way it is.
Ah, if I'm RPing with people who prefer the use of brackets I tend to just stick a couple of brackets on the end for good measure, don't tend to bother otherwise :D
That's not a problem at all. That's just being courteous to the situation.
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I've seen SAPD members using 'kicked for flooding' as some IC evidence. :lol:
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As for your other point, I'm not sure I've ever seen the FBI use /p as roleplay but I do know that they use the forums in roleplay but do so in the roleplay sections (courts, etc).
Seems to be specific to their initial recruitment :D
I think me and you stand virtually side by side in this discussion to be quite honest here, indeed, it won't affect how I roleplay, and I suspect it won't affect you either. Good that there seems to be an open discussion about it here though!
Reminds me of the border scene in the film "Blue Streak"...
(https://s31.postimg.org/wribel57f/border.jpg)
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Let's say you are RPing with some dude and the dude goes "omg admin!!! such meta-game very power-game!". Do you have the patience to sit back now and wait while an admin checks the logs? And if it takes 15 minutes? And if the admin makes a mistake and punishes you? Do you still want "no meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming"?
"No meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming" aren't going to happen. Which member of HQ wants to deal with the consequences of implementing this? Nobody. You have leaders running away from leadership like cats from vacuum cleaners. And this would, what, improve things?
You say "we want this rule," but your HQ understandably gets PTSD just from thinking about the slightest possibility of having to deal with "admin, help, this dude meta-gamed." Who would make the rules and explain them? Who would train admins? Who would deal with the reports and how?
SA-MP HQ does not even have the resources to pull this off. Even if Gandalf said "fuck meta-gaming, get these rules working asap :P", before long you'd be back here writing topics about this problem and that problem, etc.; not to mention that Argonath is a beautiful flower and would probably implement these rules in a way that has nothing in common with what you desire.
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Let's say you are RPing with some dude and the dude goes "omg admin!!! such meta-game very power-game!". Do you have the patience to sit back now and wait while an admin checks the logs? And if it takes 15 minutes? And if the admin makes a mistake and punishes you? Do you still want "no meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming"?
"No meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming" aren't going to happen. Which member of HQ wants to deal with the consequences of implementing this? Nobody. You have leaders running away from leadership like cats from vacuum cleaners. And this would, what, improve things?
You say "we want this rule," but your HQ understandably gets PTSD just from thinking about the slightest possibility of having to deal with "admin, help, this dude meta-gamed." Who would make the rules and explain them? Who would train admins? Who would deal with the reports and how?
SA-MP HQ does not even have the resources to pull this off. Even if Gandalf said "fuck meta-gaming, get these rules working asap :P", before long you'd be back here writing topics about this problem and that problem, etc.; not to mention that Argonath is a beautiful flower and would probably implement these rules in a way that has nothing in common with what you desire.
This guy gets it. 11 pages of being theoretical philosophers on the subject of regulating roleplay does not make it any less impossible than it was, logistically.
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This guy gets it. 11 pages of being theoretical philosophers on the subject of regulating roleplay does not make it any less impossible than it was, logistically.
Yet these 11 pages of posts still make more sense than this one.
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Yet these 11 pages of posts still make more sense than this one.
How so?! Let's have a productive discussion about it!
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How so?! Let's have a productive discussion about it!
:(
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By managing to keep a civilized discussion through 11 pages long of posts, despite attempts like yours to undermine and derail the topic?
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By managing to keep a civilized discussion through 11 pages long of posts, despite attempts like yours to undermine and derail the topic?
I've done no such thing. Mario pointed out that even if you come up with all sorts of rules and regulations it's impossible to enforce them. I merely seconded that and rephrased this entire ''civilized discussion''. :/
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What's the point of calling anyone theoretical philosopher for just simply having a normal discussion?
As for Mario's post, no offence but most of it makes no sense at all.
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Let's say you are RPing with some dude and the dude goes "omg admin!!! such meta-game very power-game!". Do you have the patience to sit back now and wait while an admin checks the logs? And if it takes 15 minutes? And if the admin makes a mistake and punishes you? Do you still want "no meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming"?
"No meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming" aren't going to happen. Which member of HQ wants to deal with the consequences of implementing this? Nobody. You have leaders running away from leadership like cats from vacuum cleaners. And this would, what, improve things?
You say "we want this rule," but your HQ understandably gets PTSD just from thinking about the slightest possibility of having to deal with "admin, help, this dude meta-gamed." Who would make the rules and explain them? Who would train admins? Who would deal with the reports and how?
SA-MP HQ does not even have the resources to pull this off. Even if Gandalf said "fuck meta-gaming, get these rules working asap :P", before long you'd be back here writing topics about this problem and that problem, etc.; not to mention that Argonath is a beautiful flower and would probably implement these rules in a way that has nothing in common with what you desire.
take screens of the rulebreak and report them in a specific board on the forum, admins can review with a clear mind and get logs if they please
of course the first month you can cut everybody some slack but everybody should get the concept after that
worth trying
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Ok I think you guys are not getting at the core problem.
Its not really metagamng people want to get rid of. Yes its true what they want falls under metagaming its more or less just shitty Role Play. More less people who use OOC information which they should not have known to get an advantage in a situation. This icludes people using /gm /pm etc to find someone while kindapped and all thier methods of communications is removed. This includes identifying criminals by tags /groups etc. Pretty much anything that gives you clear advantage which is clear cut and obvious and doesn't need log checking to identify. I've been hearing the log checking excuse which is pretty lame cause most cases its almost obvious that there is no way for these shit to occure without the use of OOC info. As for enforcing the rules I don't see how is this a problem, just punish the player with a warning or someshit, if it incites a huge DM fest or something, a greater punishment can be handed down. I dont see why the nay sayers are making a big deal.
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What's the point of calling anyone theoretical philosopher for just simply having a normal discussion?
There's a lesson to be learned in that for everyone who feels addressed. Upto them to learn it or keep playing on the forums instead of ingame.
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I've done no such thing.
You did, and you're still doing it, not sure is it because I'm the author of the topic, or because you simply don't like the subject, doesn't matter really, that's just you.
In both cases, you're the only one who's trying to derail the topic since page one, even tho you said its a pointless subject in the first reply.
As you can see, most people were constructive in sharing their opinions and idea about the subject, people who have completely different opinions, and the topic didn't went to shit like you predicted after 10 pages.
I hope you'll start posting in a mature and constructive way, or if you're still sure its pointless, just skip the topic since everything else is just rude.
I don't see how is this a problem, just punish the player with a warning or someshit, if it incites a huge DM fest or something, a greater punishment can be handed down. I dont see why the nay sayers are making a big deal.
take screens of the rulebreak and report them in a specific board on the forum, admins can review with a clear mind and get logs if they please
of course the first month you can cut everybody some slack but everybody should get the concept after that
worth trying
I agree with both of you, reporting and punishment wont be a problem in this matter, and I also agree with Bundy that first month or two, people shouldn't be hardly punished for it, until they get used to it.
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You did, and you're still doing it, not sure is it because I'm the author of the topic, or because you simply don't like the subject, doesn't matter really, that's just you.
In both cases, you're the only one who's trying to derail the topic since page one, even tho you said its a pointless subject in the first reply.
As you can see, most people were constructive in sharing their opinions and idea about the subject, people who have completely different opinions, and the topic didn't went to shit like you predicted after 10 pages.
I hope you'll start posting in a mature and constructive way, or if you're still sure its pointless, just skip the topic since everything else is just rude.
I posted something on page 1 about while this topic won't reap any results and how we'll see on page 10 why. Page 7 I had a little concurrence with Teddy about it and just now I pointed out how Mario is one of the few that gets what's really relevant in this discussion.
Derailing? I don't think so. I think you should look at some of your members' ('bediffrent') contributions here if you want to see what derailing is.
This has nothing to do with personal hiatus stuff. I'm not part of the grudge-holding club. ;)
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There's a lesson to be learned in that for everyone who feels addressed. Upto them to learn it or keep playing on the forums instead of ingame.
There is no lesson to be learned, you just have nothing smart to say but for some reason feel the urge to derail topic with your nonsense. I invite you to stop now.
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Just because you don't like someone's input doesn't make it derailing.
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why do we need to change Argonath's policy? I feel like its uniqueness comes from that very "gray zone", that thin line of roleplaying and "OOC(using that term loosely)fucking around"
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Let's say you are RPing with some dude and the dude goes "omg admin!!! such meta-game very power-game!". Do you have the patience to sit back now and wait while an admin checks the logs? And if it takes 15 minutes? And if the admin makes a mistake and punishes you? Do you still want "no meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming"?
Yes, I do. If these sets of rules get me banned because of a misunderstanding with an admin about it, I'm fine since I will have evidence to back me up in the unban request. It's the same thing with every other misunderstanding. Not only that but who just randomly claims somebody is metagaming without reason?
"No meta-gaming" and "no power-gaming" aren't going to happen. Which member of HQ wants to deal with the consequences of implementing this? Nobody. You have leaders running away from leadership like cats from vacuum cleaners. And this would, what, improve things?
Going against the community's wishes when it knows what it wants is what results in the server population dying. Lots of us at this point have stated that we're not looking for a strict implementation of it and that writing it down in the rules doesn't hurt but help players.
"No metagaming in order to give yourself an unfair advantage in an RP situation"
You say "we want this rule," but your HQ understandably gets PTSD just from thinking about the slightest possibility of having to deal with "admin, help, this dude meta-gamed." Who would make the rules and explain them? Who would train admins? Who would deal with the reports and how?
I'm not sure why but this fear mongering argument keeps coming up, especially since we've already stated it won't change much. The only people I can see going around claiming PG/MG at everything for the sake of being assholes are people who have a kneejerk reaction to this being implemented. Even then, I don't see the point of acting in such a way at a rule that's meant to help players.
SA-MP HQ does not even have the resources to pull this off. Even if Gandalf said "fuck meta-gaming, get these rules working asap :P", before long you'd be back here writing topics about this problem and that problem, etc.; not to mention that Argonath is a beautiful flower and would probably implement these rules in a way that has nothing in common with what you desire.
But it does, as we've seen. The times that MG/PG get brought up under the guise of shitty RP or bad RP is more than once by now. Here's an example (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=115195.msg1811039#msg1811039). The problem is that "Shitty RP" is such a subjective term. Why not name it something that's not subjective such as MG/PG? It makes more sense. As for Argonath not implementing it for the sake of being unique? I've already stated that it doesn't make sense as implementing it the way that Julio says not only won't change much but would also help clear up any confused players playing in the grey areas.
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This shouldn't even be a discussion anymore. The massive "yes"-advantage speaks its own language.
And it shouldn't even be a discussion because it's utter bullshit to use information you got through other interactions than respected roleplay methods.
A good roleplayer knows that. Basic ground rule.
The thing with Argonath is that people got so much ideas and are willing to create alternative ways by creating topics, roleplays and groups, but it takes a fucking stone age to make these basic changes that benefits the purpose of the server itself.
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I'd like to remind you that making changes is a lot different to not making changes.
It's not always as simple as "majority rules" - You forget that people already belong to a community, and people joined (and stayed) on that basis.
Not making a change may make some people bored (and drift away) but making a change will damage the existing community.
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I'd like to remind you that making changes is a lot different to not making changes.
It's not always as simple as "majority rules" - You forget that people already belong to a community, and people joined (and stayed) on that basis.
Not making a change may make some people bored (and drift away) but making a change will damage the existing community.
You seem to be a classic do not touch anything-type of guy that continuously focus on remaining this unique super platform with its super-fantastic-ultra-magical vision that is so precious that you need to walk through water to keep. So please speak up loud how Argonath will get back its players and shine. Make a big topic with brilliant ideas how you will turn this around. Argo can't reach more bottom than it is right now. And I'm pretty sure that it will not get any better neither, because you have no whatsoever solution to the problem. Remaining the same is what brought Argonath here and still people are here to keep this amazing set of brand. Damn.
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It's not always as simple as "majority rules" - You forget that people already belong to a community, and people joined (and stayed) on that basis.
If somebody joined to play unfairly for the sake of being an asshole or just to win every scenario, that's somebody we don't need in this community. That's what we're fighting against. We don't have a need for cheaters here.
Not making a change may make some people bored (and drift away) but making a change will damage the existing community.
Players leaving is damaging to the community. When there's no players in the community remaining, it's not a community anymore. Even then, this change isn't as drastic as you are making it out to be. It's just helping clear up questionable areas of roleplay. Not sure why somebody would leave because of something being cleared up in the rules.
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You seem to be a classic do not touch anything-type of guy that continuously focus on remaining this unique super platform with its super-fantastic-ultra-magical vision that is so precious that you need to walk through water to keep. So please speak up loud how Argonath will get back its players and shine. Make a big topic with brilliant ideas how you will turn this around. Argo can't reach more bottom than it is right now. And I'm pretty sure that it will not get any better neither, because you have no whatsoever solution to the problem. Remaining the same is what brought Argonath here and still people are here to keep this amazing set of brand. Damn.
:uhm:
a little touch of seriousness and a positive atmosphere.
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And it shouldn't even be a discussion because it's utter bullshit to use information you got through other interactions than respected roleplay methods.
A good roleplayer knows that. Basic ground rule.
Word.
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Gonna go ahead and bump this as the poll closed a while ago and nobody discussed the results.
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Gonna go ahead and bump this as the poll closed a while ago and nobody discussed the results.
Poll result spoke for itself. Up-to managers and leaders if they want to act on the results of the polls.
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Poll result spoke for itself. Up-to managers and leaders if they want to act on the results of the polls.
Only if there is democracy in this server haha
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Only if there is democracy in this server haha
Which there isn't hhhhhhhh
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Which there isn't hhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhh