Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Cofiliano on April 22, 2014, 04:02:52 pm

Title: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 22, 2014, 04:02:52 pm
1.This topic isn't directed to SAPD/FBI/ or any other cop unit on Argonath.
2. This topic isn't directed to Admin team, cause they are reaching verdict as they were told, and just doing their job
    3.This topic isnt about 'cops vs criminals' hate/annoyance between them, or anything similiar.
    4. This topic isn't a complain topic, nor a moaning topic.


Now that you fully read and fully understood this, lets continue:


-For a few years now, we're playing in a atmosphere where, when ever a guy on duty does a classic anti-server rulebreak, you get a msg "Report him on SAPD forum".

Many Dmers and Abusers, use /duty to be able to continue doing what they were doing always, cause they know that while being on duty they wont get harsh punishment, like they are civlians/criminals.

Going on cop duty has become a 'safe zone' for everyone to do what ever the f**k he wants, cause the hardest thing that can happen to him is getting /copban or 'verbal warning'.

For Dming 5 people out of no where, a regular civilian gets instant Ban, for doing the same thing a known cop abuser by admins, gets a 'verbal warning'.

For abusing their rights and randomly suspecting people for the troll, you report them and you find an answer 'report him on SAPD' and '/gu and have investigation'.
Ye let the victim of an abuse gets annoyed around, pulling him to PD and having a 20 minutes minimum investigation, while the abusers just goes on doing what ever he wants. So instead of admins investigating the abuser, the victim must get investigated. Ofc that never ends up in a punishment for the cop harder then a copban for few hours/days.

WELL GENTS, ABUSE OF SCRIPT TO HARASS PEOPLE, IS ABUSE OF SCRIPT, ITS ONE OF THE HARDEST RULEBREAKING IT SHOULD NOT END UP IN SAPD FORUMS CAUSE THAT'S NOT THE ADMIN TEAM ADDRESS, AND IT SHOULD NOT END UP WITH A POSSIBLE COP BAN OF FEW HOURS/DAYS, YET A BAN OF FEW WEEKS LETS SAY.



"Report him on SAPD forum"- Admins are saying this to us, when ever a cop breaks any rule or law. This has ran out of its course and has no real effect, If admins can investigate all reports considering any potential Dming, and general rulebreaking done by civlians criminals, then they should be the one who's gonna investigate cops Dming as well.

OR IF YOU THINK IM WRONG AND YOUR RIGHT, THEN FROM NOW ON WHEN EVER A CORLEONE DMs AND RULEBREAK, PLEASE REPORT HIM ON  CORLEONE FORUM, AND DO NOT TAKE ANY ADMIN ACTION AGAINST HIM, CAUSE HECK, HE'S REPORTED TO THE CORLEONE FORUM.

WHY DO THIS? CAUSE CORLEONE ARE AN OFFICAL GROUP AS MUCH AS SAPD, WHICH MEANS THEY GOT SAME RIGHTS.

Can you really think of what would happen if this 'report to Corleone forum' would be forced in game, when ever you report one member for a rulebreak?
That's how people on /duty are semi-protected by the admins right now, and that's what we face everyday.

Being on /duty has turned into being able to break the rules and get away with it, while other civilians gets ban for it.

Going on /duty gives IMMUNITY for most of the server rules, Dming, abuse of script, carjacking, carkilling, carsurfing, etc.


And if you are thinking :"OH look at this Coffee guy writing an essay of critics" please ask yourself and give a FAIR answer to yourself:

When did you last time saw a cop getting /tempban or /ban for Dming?

 I know people who plays Argonath for more then 2 years who never saw that, yet they experience cops Dming everyday.


I want to hear HQ, Developers, and Manager opinion about this, and what are they gonna do, to stop rulebreakers getting away with none or  ridiculously  small punishments


Once again, this isn't directed to the SAPD/FBI etc, this is directed to some individuals who are abusing the /duty to break many rules everyday for years, without getting any serious punishment then a 'verbal warning', cause the admins was told that in those situations they should repeat "Report on SAPD froum".
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: luckyluke98 on April 22, 2014, 04:03:52 pm
Nice Topic!
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 22, 2014, 04:11:19 pm
Criminals should get banned from cop duty.
They can get police ranks if they are willing to be legal and not to rulebreak.

Calm down, Cofiliano, we all suffer from that.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on April 22, 2014, 04:16:57 pm
First of all, calm down. However, I agree with him that what he said. When any criminal DM'es he straight aways gets a kick/warn. When a cop DM'es anyone (newbie) and the criminal reports him to the admins, they are asked to report them on the forums.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: luckyluke98 on April 22, 2014, 04:18:21 pm
Cofiliano I totaly Agree with u !
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 22, 2014, 04:20:27 pm
I'm sure you will find all your answers there: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=89083.0
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Axison on April 22, 2014, 04:20:58 pm
I truly agree with Cofiliano, this was always a problem but we get nothing besides "report him to SAPD forums".
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 22, 2014, 04:54:03 pm
Criminals should get banned from cop duty.
They can get police ranks if they are willing to be legal and not to rulebreak.
Calm down, Cofiliano, we all suffer from that.
I agree on that, but its not just among criminal that you have Dmers. For instance yesterday Dming was by a cop on duty who has no criminal history, yet he Dmed 6 people. And he's not a new player.
I'm sure you will find all your answers there: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=89083.0
I remember a time, back in 2008/09 when cops actually did get hard punished for Dming. The topic you gave does not answer my question.

What are you and the rest of HQ gonna do about it ?

Lets hear some real suggestions, and ideas to be implemented and followed. Cause it passed like 2 years since the topic you posted happen Cyril, and things only got even worst.

Ps- Dont worry guys, I am calm, just speaking in the way someone will finally take the courage to take the responsibility and change things.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Rusty on April 22, 2014, 08:11:31 pm
Every person who goes on duty falls under SAPD as one, why do we tell you to report them on the ARPD Forum?  Because that's where you report cops who display mis-conduct on duty.  Mis-conduct would be - Failing to read miranda rights, unlawful detainment, assault and even corruption.  Cops who blatantly deathmatch should be handled by server staff members not SAPD, if we had to handle cops who went around killing for no reason we'd be up to our necks in reports day-in day-out.  Same applies to those abusing /su that's script abuse and should be dealt by server staff even though SAPD Command members handle it at times as-well. 

Many of the cops who play are part-timers who do it to make extra cash by any means or dicking around to avoid being suspected.  I've seen plenty cops being given more than your standard talking to, cops aren't protected by anyone if they break rules then they get punished all the same and if that's not the case then maybe someone needs to look at this.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Hevar. on April 22, 2014, 08:55:30 pm
Cofi for president!!


So true words =)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Malik. on April 22, 2014, 09:04:34 pm
if we had to handle cops who went around killing for no reason we'd be up to our necks in reports day-in day-out. 

Isn't this what you were applying for when you posted a admin application? To look into reports from players who feel (in this case) abused. Not saying you should give all your time in it but this is your admin duty, right?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Talya_taya on April 22, 2014, 09:08:02 pm
Well written Cofiliano, I would also like to state that this is more than just a SA:MP issue, I guess all servers (at least IV:MP also) have the same issue, players are not treated fair, and while civilian and criminals once breach (even accidentally) faces mostly with permanent ban or such punishments like that, meanwhile a cop can max can be copbanned, no matter how experienced they are.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Rusty on April 22, 2014, 10:00:27 pm
Isn't this what you were applying for when you posted a admin application? To look into reports from players who feel (in this case) abused. Not saying you should give all your time in it but this is your admin duty, right?

If you actually read and understood what I posted you'd see that "we" referred to SAPD Command.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Que on April 23, 2014, 01:09:33 am
Yeah, as much as I was agreeing to my own topic a week back or so, I am backing you up on this as well. Just had a case with a pure nutshell who should be a leader of a mafia. The dude went abusing us all with pure DM and then left on a NRG as cop. Lovely isn't it. I understand the frustration and it is not even cool for the ones who are trying their best to get this back on its feet.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Leon. on April 23, 2014, 06:38:19 am
It is because criminals are naturally seen as rebels. That vision of rebelliousness carries over when it comes to rules, apparently...
It's funny, we see it in real life, too - the cop will be fired in place of being prosecuted, even in cases of blatant murder.

I'm sure you will find all your answers there: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=89083.0
You really have a bad habit with posting topics with long and progressively derailing discussions in place of actual contributions.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manoni on April 23, 2014, 07:23:13 am
Every cop that commit such actions shall be handled by the administration team, not the other law units in game nor the SAPD at forums. If someone stills getting a respond like that coming from a member of the administration, don't hesitate to speak about it with another one as this is well known.

Coming from my side, being part of a law organization, I can tell that I've encountered with many officers like the ones you are saying, Cofi. And yet, I've been experiencing the same situation as you and many others while I'm not on duty. Plenty of these can be handled by the SAPD and/or the FBI depending on the situation and they can get their badge removed for days and receive verbal warnings as most as possible but still, this is something that for those that like to abuse their rights has the minor importance, as they know that at the end of the day, they will get the chance to be back to what they always do sooner or later.

I'm pretty sure that if we start remind the fact that everyone is equal here no matter what group the person is part of, and make a change related to the way of how these cases are being handled which sadly by handled I mean ignored, we will start to see a positive change in general from the law units to the potential criminals, which I have to remind that everyone is what they decide to do in their roleplays and this is no reason to determine how each person can be.

Most of the players that are participating in the criminal side of the server sometimes gets annoyed by the fact that there's still people like the ones aforementioned in this topic around doing whatever they want and adding the fact that these persons are not being monitored as it's meant to be and they are not receiving a proper punishment from their actions, the criminal players, upset about the respond of the administrators, take the simple decision to leave the game without doing nothing more about what happened. Now, what happens with this? The abusive player stays in the server resuming his "lovely" gameplay, abusing more and more players that probably will do the same as the other one did and rage /q and with that what else comes? a decrease of the playerbase, maybe a slight one but stills a decrease.

I'm pretty sure that if this situation changes the sever will be more enjoyable to everyone but again, is up to the administrators of the RPG server to decide what is going to be made about it.

I'm sure you will find all your answers there: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=89083.0

I've been noticing that you only like to give vague and sarcastics comments towards others or just throwing out old topics which are losing the relation to the current one instead of contributing to the subject of the topic with an actual opinion. It dissapoints me and I don't know if it is because you are not as active as the others or because that's they way you are. There's more administrative members that actually share proper ideas and comments. I'd like to see that from you too.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 09:52:36 am
SAPD is a group with a command staff that are taking care of their members.
If a SAPD member break a rule (depending of the rule), he is first removed from the group. If he continues, he is removed from the server.
A cop abuses you? Report him to the CMD Staff or FBI for corruption and so on.

The difference between cops and others is that we can't forcefully remove a criminal from his group.
Let's say Cofiliano_Gvardia starts DMing. We can't remove him from Gvardia as a punishment. So he is punished with a warning/ajail etc..
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 23, 2014, 10:17:39 am
If a SAPD member break a rule (depending of the rule), he is first removed from the group. If he continues, he is removed from the server.
A cop abuses you? Report him to the CMD Staff or FBI for corruption and so on.
1. Removing a DMer cop from SAPD isn't the proper first hand punishment to be lent out to him.
There must be something with a red line in /p that "xyz has been copbanned and [warned/ajail/kicked/tempbanned] for his DM"
The removal of him from SAPD can be seen just as a extra shield or protection for the guy.
2. We know when to report and whom to report for RP abusing as corruption. But there is a difference between RP abusing and server abusing.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 23, 2014, 10:34:27 am
1. Removing a DMer cop from SAPD isn't the proper first hand punishment to be lent out to him.
There must be something with a red line in /p that "xyz has been copbanned and [warned/ajail/kicked/tempbanned] for his DM"
The removal of him from SAPD can be seen just as a extra shield or protection for the guy.

Not all punishment has to be visible to all of the players nor does it need to concern others with how a player has been handled after the matter by administrators.

2. We know when to report and whom to report for RP abusing as corruption. But there is a difference between RP abusing and server abusing.

Someone suspects you for nonsense to kill you or attack you? Sure then administrators shall deal with them.
Someone suspects you and tries to roleplay and make you do things when you're innocent, then SAPD will deal with them after a forum report.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 23, 2014, 10:40:42 am
Not all punishment has to be visible to all of the players

But this seems a bit needy cause people on the server doubt if any action is taken against a SAPD member. It can help in a way of creating belief in the people that strict action is taken against such players so that it can prevent such topics from coming up.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 10:42:12 am
We don't care if people think nothing is done against cops.
Once you have reported someone, it's up to the admin to decide what will happen.
Most of the punishments are not visible anyway.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on April 23, 2014, 01:48:02 pm
We don't care if people think nothing is done against cops.
Well, you should. A copban is nothing, at least for me.

SAPD is a group with a command staff that are taking care of their members.
Not saying that Mike or any other SAPD leader is doing his job wrong, but I find the above quote total bullshit. Taking care of a member is not /copban'ing them. I've often seen chicken-suit players saying "wtf? why my skin chicken skin?" and so on...

If a SAPD member break a rule (depending of the rule), he is first removed from the group. If he continues, he is removed from the server.
If the player is a newbie, then the above would be correct. Not at all cases, of course. "Experienced" players go on cop duty to troll someone. After being cop-banned, they (might) stop.

A cop abuses you? Report him to the CMD Staff or FBI for corruption and so on.
Because /su abuse is corruption. GG.  :app:

The difference between cops and others is that we can't forcefully remove a criminal from his group.
Let's say Cofiliano_Gvardia starts DMing. We can't remove him from Gvardia as a punishment. So he is punished with a warning/ajail etc..
If a group member starts DMing, you can talk to that specific group-leader for the said problem. If no result was shown, then feel free to warn/shut down the group. I know for a fact that Kojak has done this when he came back active. It was a positive result ( for as long as it lasted ).

Every group will have a limit of 5 warnings, after the group leader receives 5 warnings for the group failing to keep up the standards they are at risk of losing their "Recognized" status and HQ along with it.

To will ensure group leaders keep a tight rope around their members necks and a whip on their ankles to keep their members in line as the actions of a single member can bring down an entire group.

Warnings will only be issued for repeat offenses and serious matters; members rulebreaking will count towards an official group warning, let this be an early warning for groups to up their game and prove to us that they’re more than capable of obtaining an HQ once more.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 23, 2014, 02:15:44 pm
We won't hesitate to shut down a group if they are being more of a problem than a good thing within the server, don't you worry about that.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Kostas on April 23, 2014, 02:35:20 pm
SAPD is a group with a command staff that are taking care of their members.
If a SAPD member break a rule (depending of the rule), he is first removed from the group. If he continues, he is removed from the server.
A cop abuses you? Report him to the CMD Staff or FBI for corruption and so on.

The difference between cops and others is that we can't forcefully remove a criminal from his group.
Let's say Cofiliano_Gvardia starts DMing. We can't remove him from Gvardia as a punishment. So he is punished with a warning/ajail etc..

Didn't read the whole topic.
But are you saying that the administration team can remove a member from SAPD?
So if I was in SAPD you would be abled to get me out of there with your own will? IF yes then what is the actual use of the CMD Staff or the FBI Staff?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 02:43:03 pm
Didn't read the whole topic.
But are you saying that the administration team can remove a member from SAPD?
So if I was in SAPD you would be abled to get me out of there with your own will? IF yes then what is the actual use of the CMD Staff or the FBI Staff?

You can be removed from SAPD temporarily with a copban.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 23, 2014, 02:45:54 pm
Just increase the limit of 'copban' to months and so.
Then, players will be so keen not to make rulebreaks on cop duty.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 02:47:30 pm
Just increase the limit of 'copban' to months and so.
Then, players will be so keen not to make rulebreaks on cop duty.

7 days is fine.
For extreme cases, it can be 30 days or more already.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 23, 2014, 02:47:50 pm
SAPD is a group with a command staff that are taking care of their members.
If a SAPD member break a rule (depending of the rule), he is first removed from the group. If he continues, he is removed from the server.
A cop abuses you? Report him to the CMD Staff or FBI for corruption and so on.

The difference between cops and others is that we can't forcefully remove a criminal from his group.
Let's say Cofiliano_Gvardia starts DMing. We can't remove him from Gvardia as a punishment. So he is punished with a warning/ajail etc..
You can't remove CBF from SAPD can't you? And he had a few moments of his own.

And what you are saying is exactly what Im pointing out. We're done with cops being deal by SAPD or FBI for their rulebreaking. Like the topic says the rules apply same for all.

Gvardia is an offical group, with offical report system, and with harsh punishments toward their members, from now on when ever any Gvardia/Corleone/Ancelotti/etc breaks a rule, report him on Gvardia/Corleone/Ancelotti/etc forum, and you guys promise you gonna promoted this from now on in game?

Or if not, then lets hear the ideas, suggestions how to change this, like I said on the start of the topic, I want HQ to tell us what are they gonna do about this in changing it back to where it belongs, dealt by Admins for breaking the rules, and punished by /ban /tempban for /su abuse, Dming etc,  not 'verbal warning' 'report on sapd forum and 'copban'

The immunity from rules and admins punishment must stop and the response from the A-Team must be harsh. Why? For the sake of all of us, and for the cops who are playing according to rules yet gets a bad name cause of this individuals, for the sake of SAPD and FBI, and for the sake of the entire Community.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 23, 2014, 02:51:23 pm
7 days is fine.
For extreme cases, it can be 30 days or more already.
No a 7 days full ban is fine. Copban should be 30 days or more for regular players (not new players).

Why? Cause a  regular civilian would get a 2 weeks ban for same reason.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 02:53:03 pm
If someone is behaving or new, I don't see why we should escalate to tempban or ban directely.
A verbal warning is most of the time enough. A copban can suffice too.

Most of people that claim to have been /su abused are either:
- Evading
- Shooting at the cop

And then they decide to report. But it's too late as your action made it valid.
Witnessing a /su abuse is also very difficult, we can't spectate all the cops on the server and we have other things to do. That's why we ask you to take your evidences and head to SAPD Forum where SAPD CMD Staff will investigate it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 23, 2014, 02:59:29 pm
Then, we won't play, Cyril.
We'll be taking evidences every second and players will just hate each other and take advantages and shit.

Just
Just increase the limit of 'copban' to months and so.
Then, players will be so keen not to make rulebreaks on cop duty.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 23, 2014, 03:24:10 pm
Justice is having the same rules for everybody. You must not take into consideration the group he belongs to. If you take that in consideration, let all the groups be treated same.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: ssaammee on April 23, 2014, 03:30:27 pm
Supported, as the author of Animal Farm wrote, "we are all equal, but some are more equal than others."
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 23, 2014, 03:31:41 pm
If someone is behaving or new, I don't see why we should escalate to tempban or ban directely.
A verbal warning is most of the time enough. A copban can suffice too.
No a 7 days full ban is fine. Copban should be 30 days or more for regular players (not new players).
If he's a regular player and he's using /duty to rulebreak, the punishment should be even more harsher then if a citizen is doing the same. Why? Cause he's abusing a Government Institution for his rulebreaking.

Most of people that claim to have been /su abused are either:
- Evading
- Shooting at the cop
That's like saying most rape victims are dressing up sexy, and its their fault.

Cops who abuse /sus do not wait a second before starting shooting on the guy they abused, he can either evade or shot back.
Yeah I know, /gu and investigation, right well gents never did it happen in the 5 years history here, that a cop who abused /sus gets punished for it after the investigations. Why?

Cause the suspect just gets jailed at the end and that's it. Case closed, and the abusers keeps on doing what he wants.




And then they decide to report. But it's too late as your action made it valid.
Witnessing a /su abuse is also very difficult, we can't spectate all the cops on the server and we have other things to do. That's why we ask you to take your evidences and head to SAPD Forum where SAPD CMD Staff will investigate it.
Yeah well until you do /report you're already dead, the cop altough he abused /sus, he use some reason to cover it up (evading, kicking the citizens, etc), admins check your report says "your crime is valid" and that's it.

We need a new model to keep the abusers away from /duty, or a new system when it comes to who can /sus and who can not. If anyone can go on /duty and /sus who ever he wants, this problem will just keep on raising and raising, until we all go on /duty.

I mean at the moment 80 percent of the server is on duty, when you ask them why, maybe 30 percent will tell you cause they like being cops, others will tell you that they cant handle being f**kg around all the time, when ever they tried doing something off duty.

So
lets hear the ideas, suggestions how to change this, like I said on the start of the topic, I want HQ to tell us what are they gonna do about this in changing it back to where it belongs, dealt by Admins for breaking the rules, and punished by /ban /tempban for /su abuse, Dming etc,  not 'verbal warning' 'report on sapd forum and 'copban'
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 03:35:50 pm
There is no need to change something that currently works well.
No, we are not going to permban everyone who misuse /su.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on April 23, 2014, 04:14:43 pm
There is no need to change something that currently works well.
No, we are not going to permban everyone who misuse /su.
If we go by that logic, RS4 worked well, why change to RS5 ?

Reminder: That was only an example, don't start rs4 vs. rs5 here, please.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 23, 2014, 04:23:56 pm
There is no need to change something that currently works well.
No, we are not going to permban everyone who misuse /su.
It might work well for you, but it doesn't work well for the rest of the Community.
It might work out well for some admins who cant be annoyed with it, but it doesn't work well for the rest of the Community.
If this worked well, we wouldn't have this problem happening all day and night.
If this worked well, we wouldn't have so much people who stops playing only because abusers are being covered up.
And if this worked well, we wouldnt have this topic in which as you can see, people from the entire Community not just criminals, yet cops, regular citizens are saying this has ran out of its course.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Astaroth on April 23, 2014, 05:16:59 pm
It's just too simple, I'm not sure what part can't you understand..let's try it like this.

civilan runs around, deathmatching people, someone reports him - if the admin thinks he should be punished for deathmatching, he will be punished.

cop runs around, deathmatching people, someone reports him - if the admin thinks he should be punished for deathmatching, he will be punished.

And as for /su abuse:
/report it if you think he's doing, an administrator will come up with a proper punishment for him if he's actually missusing /su
And basically what you're doing here is asking us to punish cops more often.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 23, 2014, 05:57:39 pm
civilan runs around, deathmatching people, someone reports him - if the admin thinks he should be punished for deathmatching, he will be punished.

cop runs around, deathmatching people, someone reports him - if the admin thinks he should be punished for deathmatching, he will be punished.

And basically what you're doing here is asking us to punish cops more often.

1. But the admins in most of the cases are only insisting on reporting on SAPD forums rather than taking any more action.

2. We all want same treatment to cops and civilians

3. We are not asking to punish more often, we are asking to start punishing more strictly.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Meepy on April 23, 2014, 06:04:35 pm
Can't count how many times this has happened. Sure you can give up and try to report it or reason it out, but you'll end up just getting temp banned or warned for "refusing to comply after gu" or some other shit.

I know this has happened since forever, and nothing is ever done about it. I know I've done it myself tons of times as a cop back in RS4 because I knew nothing ever happened.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 23, 2014, 06:08:38 pm
Even a cop now claims that he used to DM back in rs4 as he knew nothing will happen  :dead:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 06:12:01 pm
Every admins give the punishment they want according to each situation.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: ssaammee on April 23, 2014, 06:50:36 pm
Every admins give the punishment they want according to each situation.

That's why some of us bends the rules.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 23, 2014, 07:42:55 pm
Yeah I know, /gu and investigation, right well gents never did it happen in the 5 years history here, that a cop who abused /sus gets punished for it after the investigations. Why?

Cause the suspect just gets jailed at the end and that's it. Case closed, and the abusers keeps on doing what he wants.

I can call BS on this particular quote, as I myself have punished some offending cops who were processed through /gu. I personally experienced (and in some instances, facilitated) some of these cases during my tenure as Administrator/FBI (SA:MP).

But before any small-minded detractors point fingers, let me clarify that I will be objective on this topic. I both agree and disagree with many of Cofi's points, and I will state facts that I have observed over the last five years. (to those who will misbrand them as "defense shield" and/or "pro-admin bias", feel free to shove your lies where the sun doesn't shine) I am with Cofi with regards to the core intentions with which he made the topic, which is to remind the community of the respect we all deserve.

After analyzing the topic (and its replies, rather than limiting myself to the first post alone, or else this reply will be solely for Cofi), it basically became a request to punish cops more often, as Astaroth mentioned. Despite the claims that this is not an anti-admin topic, discussion from many of the posters is delivered with the implicit assumption that admins inherently favor cop players over civilians and criminals for one reason or another.

That is false. I (and just about every admin who is competent enough to continue working) punish every cop committing a server rulebreak that we come across. If you will talk about the affiliation of the player itself, I personally don't give a f**k if they are a civilian, cop, criminal, or even someone in my own group, neither do I care if they have been here for 6 weeks or 6 years; if they rulebreak on our watch, we will deal with them as our admin duties require. (also considering new players who are actually in the process of learning our rules)

Unfortunately, much of the community do not know (or know, but refuse to remember) the following, so keep this in mind:

1. The majority of punishments are not visible to the public, like the personal warnings (not /warn) that many admins (rarely including myself as I favor more strict methods) are known to give. Just because there is no feedback to you (the reporter), that does not mean the person you reported got away with it (assuming they really were in the wrong). Remember that the admin punishment system is a means of maintaining order and justice on the server, and not red lines in the chat made to satisfy your e-penis.

2. Admins are not being "unfair" in their work. It's just that for cops, there are different ways (admin and SAPD/FBI) of handling infractions from cop players, as the nature of infractions can differ as well (i.e. outright sue abuse, vs. RP corruption). One recurring problem is that many players also mix the responsibilities of admins and SAPD Command when it comes to who should be handling what.

3. Even with RS5's added script support for non-government groups, remember that cops' privileges and responsibilities are much more intertwined with the scripts, and that not all player groups will handle themselves internally with the same level of strictness and professionalism as Corleone/Stracci/Araatus/Gvardia/Ancelotti. An unfortunate example of these are "rulebreaker gangs/mafias" and those factions where even the group leaders cannot resist getting punished, ending up with situations where they spend up to half a year (or more) leading their group "from exile" because they are banned.

4. Many players (not limited to any single affiliation) decide to take revenge (in all the wrong ways) themselves when they feel wronged, instead of observing due process. In a significant number of cases, the revenge actions are worse than the original rulebreak, which results in escalation; this usually ends with the reporter (who took revenge) getting a bigger punishment than the person they reported, and we all know what kinds of complaints usually come after that.

5. More importantly, many players also feel the need to cry after (nearly) every single (perceived) wrong done against them, instead of accepting that not everyone will act the way they want. Personally, I appreciate players who know how to handle their own problems (i.e: fighting off a DMer sometimes with their combat skills, rather than crying like a bitch every time someone so much as punches them), but also balance those with knowing when to seek the help of Admins/ARPD/etc.

6. The worst headaches on the server come from regulars and "veterans", not new players. Nearly all new players have little to no knowledge of the rules, all the more reason they need our (not just the staff, but also more experienced players') help, and many stop rulebreaking after they are taught and/or spoken nicely to once. Troublesome regulars, on the other hand, already know the rules but still choose to fuck around on the server. (How relevant is this to the topic? Very.)

7. Different admins have different tolerance/patience levels. While we have some set guidelines, we are also humans, chosen for our ability to judge when someone has violated rules, and act accordingly. We are not robots/machines, nor cogs in some kind of machine. Each of us has a slightly different way of handling things. But just because some admins are more kind and patient, that is no reason to take advantage of them. One more thing we all have in common is that we will give the same (if not harsher) punishments without tolerance once certain lines are crossed.

8. The complaint email works. Anyone who tells you that it does nothing is full of shit. If you wonder why you do not get any "follow-up" (notification that "XX has been punished for YY on ZZ"), refer to Point #1.

If you want to help the community, help US enforce the rules meant to protect YOU; be objective in your reports, refrain from causing unnecessary trouble, and focus on the more positive aspect of your playing experience/s (while helping us with the reports) so that you can still have fun at the end of the day, rather than brooding for days because some douche/troll/idiot tried to bring you down. If you let them do that, you're only letting them win.



TL;DR:

Broccoli is an edible green plant in the cabbage family, whose large flowering head is used as a vegetable. The word broccoli comes from the Italian plural of broccolo, which means "the flowering top of a cabbage", and is the diminutive form of brocco, meaning "small nail" or "sprout". Broccoli is often boiled or steamed but may be eaten raw.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Borus on April 23, 2014, 07:53:18 pm
tl;dr :)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on April 23, 2014, 07:55:35 pm
tl;dr :)
You got that right m8 hehe damn in the aire.....
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 23, 2014, 08:00:29 pm
Just so you know, many of our players are actually not as inept at reading as both of you.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Borus on April 23, 2014, 08:01:36 pm
Just so you know, many of our players are actually not as inept at reading as both of you.
if it's what you believe then it's ok :^)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on April 23, 2014, 08:07:06 pm
Just so you know, many of our players are actually not as inept at reading as both of you.
Boris and i are big enough to represent 20 argonathers XD hehe man
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .Ganton. on April 23, 2014, 08:08:18 pm
JDC doesn't your fingers hurt?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 23, 2014, 08:37:25 pm
tl;dr :)

If you didn't read, don't bother posting.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Khm on April 23, 2014, 08:40:05 pm
Boris and i are big enough to represent 20 argonathers XD hehe man
That's why no one is willing to say that you're representing him, neither i do. I would prefer Woka to represent me instead of you both.

If you didn't read, don't bother posting.
Now i like you Cyril.

#ontopic: I agree with Cofi but not all of the administration team act like that.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Tiny on April 23, 2014, 08:52:02 pm
Respect, Cofiliano.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 23, 2014, 08:53:37 pm
Even though I represent the cop side, I really agree. Punishments issued to such cops must be way harsher than they currently are now. And yes, script abuse and DM should be dealth by admins, not by SAPD. Why a civilian DM is considered a server rulebreak, while a cop that deathmatches is considered an SAPD regulation breach? That's discrimination and must be fixed! Respect for Cofi!
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Bundy on April 23, 2014, 08:55:36 pm
Now i like you Cyril.
(http://cdn.arwrath.com/2/278292.gif)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 23, 2014, 10:22:16 pm
offtopic:
Im sorry JDC you're on my ignore list for a while now.
Nothing personal, your style of writing makes any topic look like a lots of spam in which you take sentences out of quotes and you use them to spin the facts, and post a counter-non related fact, after which you try to move the discussion in a whole different story, after which the whole topic loses its point.

Most people stop reading your replies long time ago cause of this, argonath forum isn't a competition in debate and spining facts, and until you realize that, your reading will be ignore but almost everyone I know.

And don't get mad bro, nothing personal like I've said, you got my respect.

ontopic:

Suggestions, ideas, ways to fix this the way it should be, lets hear it out.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Khm on April 23, 2014, 10:33:58 pm
ontopic:

Suggestions, ideas, ways to fix this the way it should be, lets hear it out.
This (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=105189.0) can reduce to less/0 of the actions that you've stated. Yet, there must be more strict rules about how the administration team would act against them equally like for any other civilian and/or criminal not just drop it out for ARPD forum. Or make the limiter of cop-bans longer (such as 1 month 2 etc...)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Rusty on April 23, 2014, 11:24:08 pm
while a cop that deathmatches is considered an SAPD regulation breach?

SAPD doesn't and won't ever deal with cops who blatantly deathmatch on duty for no reason, that falls under the handle of server staff.  It's even listed in a topic about reporting a Officer which can be found below.

http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/index.php?topic=31179.0
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 24, 2014, 01:13:24 pm
To summarize the entire topic so far, people feel that those abusing SAPD duty to rule-break and getting punishment which equates to something like a copban to be insufficient.

What should be happening when a player abuses cop duty to rulebreak by deathmatching or abusing duty commands is that they should be punished by administration for breaking the server rules seeing as deathmatching for example is a server rule and issue, not an SAPD matter in all truth.

As Rusty has said above, it's a server matter if the officer is deathmatching not SAPD, however SAPD should intervene if a report is sent in on the officer for abusing duty "tools" like /su and actual weapons.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on April 24, 2014, 01:25:39 pm
As Rusty has said above, it's a server matter if the officer is deathmatching not SAPD, however SAPD should intervene if a report is sent in on the officer for abusing duty "tools" like /su and actual weapons.
/su is a script, abusing it is script abuse.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 24, 2014, 03:07:09 pm
Suspecting someone for something like "ramming" when they aren't even driving then I would say report them to SAPD, if they are doing it with the intent to start a shootout or deathmatch then administration should handle it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Conroy on April 24, 2014, 03:10:44 pm
Anything that's abused in the context of roleplay is handed in a roleplay way. Abusing scripts out with roleplay is an admin matter. Devin gave a good example.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: ssaammee on April 24, 2014, 03:18:59 pm
Basically, nothing will be changed?   :uhm:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 24, 2014, 03:41:28 pm
Basically, nothing will be changed?   :uhm:

Pretty much obvious, Ferah.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 24, 2014, 03:51:08 pm
People are demanding change, and yet again, the demand is being ignored and turned down. Don't you think Argonath has already lost enough players? It's obvious the change is NEEDED. With the point of view certain administration members have expressed, we will only loose even more players. Whoever /su's somoene for a false reason, he does that so he can get money, which makes it a script abuse to get profit, which is bannable. I don't see why it should be an exception.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Mr. Goobii on April 24, 2014, 04:09:55 pm
Oh wait, hi. Wrong topic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 24, 2014, 04:12:51 pm
Well, it's like '' let's get real, people want rs4 '' and now like RS5.
Leaders said no, then it's no.

And for this, is the same case, no is no.
Nothing more nothing less.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 24, 2014, 04:15:48 pm
People are demanding change, and yet again, the demand is being ignored and turned down. Don't you think Argonath has already lost enough players? It's obvious the change is NEEDED. With the point of view certain administration members have expressed, we will only loose even more players. Whoever /su's somoene for a false reason, he does that so he can get money, which makes it a script abuse to get profit, which is bannable. I don't see why it should be an exception.

The politician act is cute but no.

If they are abusing scripts to annoy others they will be dealt with by administration which is what people are asking for in this topic.
If they are misusing the police script to exploit others for their own entertainment or gain by enticing issues then they can be handled by SAPD via a report of the officer.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: ssaammee on April 24, 2014, 04:18:06 pm
Pretty much obvious, Ferah.

No shit..
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Leon. on April 24, 2014, 08:48:28 pm
We don't care if people think nothing is done against cops.
Why the shitty attitude from a manager?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: beLTa on April 24, 2014, 08:50:32 pm
Why the shitty attitude from a manager?
Because he is a manager. He can say that.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 24, 2014, 08:53:28 pm
Because he is a manager. He can say that.

Nonsense, his response is in lines with this:
Whether the punishment is seen by players or not, it is not important. Administrators will deal with rulebreaking players as they feel necessary.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: beLTa on April 24, 2014, 08:57:15 pm
Nonsense, his response is in lines with this:
Whether the punishment is seen by players or not, it is not important. Administrators will deal with rulebreaking players as they feel necessary.
You said that to me or to Leon? I didn't say anything wrong or someting else. He asked that why the shitty attitude from a manager? I replied him, Why you said that to me. btw, i know what does he means on that.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Solis on April 24, 2014, 08:58:10 pm
Whether the punishment is seen by players or not, it is not important. Administrators will deal with rulebreaking players as they feel necessary.

This is what everyone says, but I wonder if it's actually done. I guess it's too hard to at least tell the reporting player by PM what was done to the rulebreaker, so that they don't feel their reports went nowhere. This is one of many reasons why iMarkz was pretty much the only admin I liked.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on April 24, 2014, 09:00:33 pm
Why the shitty attitude from a manager?

Hah? Loads of topics against the cop script. All the admin team have said that several times that what they think is all wrong. Actions are taken on the cops who abuses his rights while on duty.

For example; There's a player abusing his rights while on-duty. He got reported by a player/criminal and SAPD command staff/member had a talk with him. Got a verdict, and was warned for the thing that he did. He still kept doing the same thing, and got copbanned. Who knows that he got copbanned? Only him who was ban to join the cop duty, and the staff member who banned him from the duty.

All punishments are not visible. If a cop is DM'ing someone, and you reported him to an admin, and if the admin asks you to take that report to the forum so you have to do it. While the report is handled by a command member, I'm sure a serious action will be taken on him. If he still keeps doing to, then of-course he's breaking server's rules and you have full authority to report him to an admin, and an action will be taken.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on April 24, 2014, 09:10:02 pm
No offence, but I propose my tactics of back in the day :

Punish equally - either your a criminal, a cop or even a fricking hooker. Breaking rules equals breaking rules equals punishment. Either verbally or action-wise.
Yet one verbal warning in 10 minutes time is enough..

DO BE AWARE ADMINS : this method won't make you popular, at all ! but hey, who the f' cares ?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 24, 2014, 09:27:17 pm
At the end of the day, every person in an administrative position is here to do a job which consists of punishing those that rulebreak every so often. You can't please them all.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Leon. on April 24, 2014, 09:37:19 pm
Nonsense, his response is in lines with this:
Whether the punishment is seen by players or not, it is not important. Administrators will deal with rulebreaking players as they feel necessary.
That's a much less cynical and more proper response :)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manoni on April 24, 2014, 09:50:37 pm
No offence, but I propose my tactics of back in the day :

Punish equally - either your a criminal, a cop or even a fricking hooker. Breaking rules equals breaking rules equals punishment. Either verbally or action-wise.
Yet one verbal warning in 10 minutes time is enough..

DO BE AWARE ADMINS : this method won't make you popular, at all ! but hey, who the f' cares ?

This is very true and is what I said on my previous post. It doesn't matter what you are in the server, you break the rules, you get punished. Not because having the chance to get a break from those issues telling that they should be handled in a different means that you have to do this all the time. Example: The cop abuses a player while he is roleplaying, this player reports it to the admin and the admin replies with "Report on ARPD Forums". Not much later that day the same cop does the same thing with another person which gets the same reply from a different admin, While the report is being handled by the SAPD the abuser already managed to piss off at least 4 to 6 regular players in the server, when does it ends then?

It'll be better if we start to do something like Chuck says.

Because he is a manager. He can say that.

No.

Nonsense, his response is in lines with this:
Whether the punishment is seen by players or not, it is not important. Administrators will deal with rulebreaking players as they feel necessary.

And it'll be necessary once the same cop abuses another 3 players? Just asking. It's like saying that someone should let a criminal to DM 4 cops to punish him.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 24, 2014, 09:53:15 pm
Quote
It doesn't matter what you are in the server you break the rules, you get punished.

Breaking a rule doesn't mean you will receive a punishment. There might be other way to deal with rulebreakers than constantly punishing them.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manoni on April 24, 2014, 09:55:36 pm
Breaking a rule doesn't mean you will receive a punishment. There might be other way to deal with rulebreakers than constantly punishing them.

By "punishment" I was not referring to the typical /warn /kick etc. My point was that this should not be let only to the hands of SAPD.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 24, 2014, 09:56:08 pm
Let me put it this way - If some let's call them degenerate child is constantly disrupting the server whilst on cop duty, I have no problem with the administrators removing them from the server without thinking twice about telling someone to report them to SAPD.

If it's some nonsense behaviour, report it to SAPD however if they are disrupting others within the server, administration should intervene.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: ClazzyJogel on April 24, 2014, 10:02:26 pm
Roleplay that does not violate server rules -> SAPD's commands task.
Everything else -> Administration.

It's that easy guys, I'm not the man to speak about the Argonaths history but I believe It's been like this for ages.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 25, 2014, 12:42:09 am
Suspecting someone for something like "ramming" when they aren't even driving then I would say report them to SAPD, if they are doing it with the intent to start a shootout or deathmatch then administration should handle it.
Lets take your example:

To determent did the guy who got suspect drove a car or not, who can get to the truth in this case?

Admins with the command that shows last cars he drove, or some SAPD high rank on forums, who wasn't even around, and has no mechanism to see who's telling the truth, cause of which he rejects the report?

This is exactly what we are talking about, admins are here to protect all players from rulebreakers,  and if some individuals is on /duty he shouldn't be judge by SAPD forums, yet by the admin.

When a rulebreaker makes your gaming unplayable, I dont care is he a cop, criminal, fireman, or what ever, I want to see admins who disallows him from doing that, not asking me to go on forums and attempt proving something that is almost impossible of proving via forums, instead of him wasting few minutes, typing few commands and punishing the guy.

This topic is just about  THE RULE OF LAW, at the moment cause of this system, rules are being avoid and jump over everyday all day, with the admins not being able to do anything about it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 25, 2014, 01:02:17 am
As I said earlier on, I have no problem with administration dealing with the player on their own accord, if the player is disrupting others in-game then the administrator can punish them.
Whether the victim files an SAPD report is up to them and it's up to SAPD whether they want to do anything about the matter.

But at the end of it, if the person is being a pest in any way to be seen as abusing other players or even abusing their duty commands, the administration team should deal with them.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Solis on April 25, 2014, 01:04:19 am
(http://oi58.tinypic.com/vyxwzk.jpg)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manoni on April 25, 2014, 01:31:45 am
(http://oi58.tinypic.com/vyxwzk.jpg)

I saw that too, really surprised me.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Nexus_Riggs on April 25, 2014, 03:05:36 am
The Administration intervenes when law enforcement repeatedly abuses their duty weapons and special features to intentionally abuse other players. Especially when they start breaking server rules such as "revenge killing", "deathmatching", "harassing", "bullying". We do not tolerate players breaking the server rules and regulations nor do we conjecture high level administrative response until everything is fully analyzed. Administration duty focuses on the server/player affairs. No official group, such as SAPD, SAFD, FBI, EMS have any entitlement from being exempt or assented from being disciplined by the Administration. As a SAPD Sergeant, I can assure that SAPD Command Staff neutrally oversees the body of police officers and tracks all perceptible activities to prevent situations like this from happening whenever we can. Officers breaking rules not only hurts them, it hurts the image of SAPD, which we make every effort to retain.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 25, 2014, 01:41:05 pm
If someone doesn't know how to read properly, then they should not complain when people don't take their own serious insights seriously. Posting that this is not a debate while acting like it is one does not help make a strong case.

I did not skew topic, but only posted the facts; that people have turned this into another attack against the Administration and ARPD.



Why the shitty attitude from a manager?
People can think you're a total piece of shit. But if you know it to be false, then you probably won't care less. Remember that Managers are people too, and sometimes they have to be firm about things. This includes not taking any shit from the shitters.

Fact is that people spread bullshit propaganda against Argonath Administration (HQ) and ARPD. That the admins/HQ and/or ARPD don't care about players and/or don't do anything about complaints.

As someone who has been on both the receiving and giving ends of power accorded to both, I have seen that to be false. To make things worse, many of those talking and making the attacks/implications have no real idea about the effort that goes into making sure that troublesome players are disposed of, and rogue law enforcement removed. Therefore they are (the functional equivalent of) talking out of their asses.

Sometimes, it's a simple as an admin directly witnessing a deathmatch or an ARPD command officer making an on-the-spot to demote a law enforcer for abuse of discretion. But most of the time, things have to be investigated to make sure that punishments issued are valid, not arbitrary. Otherwise you will just complain that Admins/ARPD punish on impulse rather than making sure justice is served objectively.

Let's also talk about the bullshit claim that Management does not care about the server. If that were true, then there would have been no admin-side efforts to rebuild things after the player count dropped upon RS5's release. The work being done for you goes far beyond the dozens of bug reports that have been locked on the forum recently.

One thing that players need to get into their heads, is that just because an admin/HQ member takes a view that is not "popular", that does not mean it is wrong or detrimental to the server. While you have the right to an opinion, they also have the right to exercise their power as necessary, so that you won't have a playing environment overrun by total chaos, lawlessness, and shitters. Most importantly, so that you would have a playing environment at all.

The bottom line? Those responsible for maintaining order are doing their jobs, or else they too will be removed. Unless you want to spread lies and actually distort the facts, don't claim otherwise.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Pandalink on April 25, 2014, 04:36:05 pm
civilan runs around, deathmatching people, someone reports him - if the admin thinks he should be punished for deathmatching, he will be punished.

cop runs around, deathmatching people, someone reports him - if the admin thinks he should be punished for deathmatching, he will be punished.
True, but a civilian's punishment is a general admin warning such as a warn, kick, ajail or ban.
A cop's punishment is copban. Which is nothing.

Every admins give the punishment they want according to each situation.
Which is exactly why you need a large mixture of different ideologies in the admin team so that the consensus reached for situations in admin chat isn't as one-sided.

the implicit assumption that admins inherently favor cop players over civilians and criminals for one reason or another.
An assumption one would be foolish not to make.
Only new players don't know this about the server, come on man.

Just because there is no feedback to you (the reporter), that does not mean the person you reported got away with it (assuming they really were in the wrong).
Feedback to the reporting player is always appreciated. It's about going above and beyond in your duty rather than doing the minimum.

Personally, I appreciate players who know how to handle their own problems (i.e: fighting off a DMer sometimes with their combat skills, rather than crying like a bitch every time someone so much as punches them)
I agree but in that case the DMer is liable to file a malicious report, and then you're gonna get punished. The only way to prove your claim would be weapon hit logs, which afaik aren't exactly accessible to an ingame admin.

But just because some admins are more kind and patient, that is no reason to take advantage of them.
Patience is a virtue for administrators. This is just a fact, and anyone without any shouldn't be a part of the team.
Kindness isn't really the right word for it, but common courtesy and respect applies. Nobody is going to listen to some admin being a prick and treating them like a child. They're more likely to act up, if anything.
Basically as an actual human being, that guy flying a buffalo around is no better than you, he just happens to be dicking around with hacks on SAMP instead of administrating a game server at that moment.

8. The complaint email works. Anyone who tells you that it does nothing is full of shit.
Depends who sends the email.
If I didn't have to reveal who I was to make the report make any sense then I wouldn't say since it wouldn't get thrown out as quickly.

Broccoli is an edible green plant in the cabbage family, whose large flowering head is used as a vegetable. The word broccoli comes from the Italian plural of broccolo, which means "the flowering top of a cabbage", and is the diminutive form of brocco, meaning "small nail" or "sprout".
how did you know I liked broccoli

if it's what you believe then it's ok :^)
ebin response bro, upvoted

People can think you're a total piece of shit. But if you know it to be false, then you probably won't care less.
Respect is earned, not given.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: eymas on April 25, 2014, 04:49:52 pm
A cop's punishment is copban. Which is nothing.

To you, or others.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Meepy on April 25, 2014, 09:47:59 pm
To you, or others.

I'm sure more people would agree than disagree. Who really cares if you get cop banned? It'll come off so you can just repeat it again with the same punishment.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Que on April 25, 2014, 11:51:21 pm
To you, or others.
A cop ban is nothing. Obviously because you have no whatsoever reason to care, as you are just joining without any application, getting all the resources and whatnot from the very get go, and get it back when the cop ban expires.

If you loose something you've been working for, it would feel a lot more. But the ones breaking the rules are frankly not even giving a blink about the job at all.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 26, 2014, 04:12:05 pm
Offtopic:

Its funny that all scripts possible were completely changed the way they function in general, criminal script, drug script, group script, medic script, fireman script, casino script, bank script, weapons script, property script, business script, every one of this scripts were completely changed except the cop script who got some minor changes and yet the way they function is still from rs2 , like its something holy that must not be touch, although the time passed it over long time ago, and such a system has ran its purpose back in 2009.


But this isn't the main problem, yet that the HQ must find a way to bring back admin punishment toward the individuals who abuses /duty script.

I for one think that a Veteran cop who abuses the duty, should get copbanned for a month at least, and even that is a softer punishment then he should really received and that's a ban for 10-15 days.

And yes , current copban is nothing.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 26, 2014, 04:18:43 pm
It'd be pretty much good if you, leaders&managers, choose trusted people of the server (like 6 or 8) to represent the Argonath Players, as I don't see ARUN working at all, and that it's leader is quite inactive.

Those trusted players will have meeting with scripters, choose best scripts of RS4 & RS5 and come up with the final result to us, thr players.

I think this idea, of course, would be ignored, but it's my opinion.

-James.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KhornateMonkey on April 26, 2014, 04:25:07 pm
It'd be pretty much good if you, leaders&managers, choose trusted people of the server (like 6 or 8) to represent the Argonath Players, as I don't see ARUN working at all, and that it's leader is quite inactive.

Those trusted players will have meeting with scripters, choose best scripts of RS4 & RS5 and come up with the final result to us, thr players.

Please tell us what a "trusted player" would be, to be honest with you, the idea you suggest would be worse than ARUN.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on April 26, 2014, 04:29:13 pm
.. the HQ must find a way to bring back admin punishment toward the individuals who abuses /duty script.

I already punish people who abuses the script depending on the situation.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Rusty on April 26, 2014, 04:35:27 pm
Copbans can only go to a certain limit, can't ban them from duty for a month in one go.  It's easily avoidable also.
Being banned from duty might not mean jack shit to you, those who barely go on duty and those who only go on to f**k around and earn quick cash.  It means more to hose who play as a cop 24/7 or are higher than the rank of a Officer.  But it is a way to stop them abusing the police script.

Punishments against cops who abuse were never gone, copban was always a way to remove those who abuse it from using it again.  You might find that unfair but it's (was) a administration punishment (admins could copban on RS4 if any remembers not so much RS5 now.  Scripters?).  More serious actions such as a spree of deathmatching or whatever is met with more serious punishments. 

No-one is immune from the same fate as others.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 26, 2014, 04:36:53 pm
A player, the managers think that he's good enough to represent us.
ARUN is dead, Devin is the only one I see working, so I came up with this idea, to get some fellows who Devin trust in, to help him and others.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: eymas on April 26, 2014, 04:51:26 pm
wasn't ARUN an initiative for a council between the groups their leaders and the staff...?

To me it sounds like your idea's a redundancy for it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Petarda on April 26, 2014, 05:07:02 pm
wasn't ARUN an initiative for a council between the groups their leaders and the staff...?
Does ARUN still exist?

All I know is that ARUN leader if I'm not wrong wanted to close one group that should not be named and make his own group better.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KhornateMonkey on April 26, 2014, 05:18:15 pm
A player, the managers think that he's good enough to represent us.
ARUN is dead, Devin is the only one I see working, so I came up with this idea, to get some fellows who Devin trust in, to help him and others.

Bias would be strong if this method was used, no matter who was chosen to select "trusted players"
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 26, 2014, 05:23:35 pm
A player, the managers think that he's good enough to represent us.

This would only give rise to a "one idea" based community of HQ. As HQ will chose those players who can sync with the ideologies of them. The best way to solve this would be "voting" by regular/veterans/+ for a council of people to represent their thoughts and ideologies in the best interests of both the parties.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 26, 2014, 05:51:04 pm
You guys are going off topic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 26, 2014, 08:44:29 pm
If they are misusing the police script to exploit others for their own entertainment or gain by enticing issues then they can be handled by SAPD via a report of the officer.

What was that called again? Yes! Script abuse! And script abuse was bannable the last time I checked the rules! Why the double standarts? I'm starting to get so dissapointed by the people in charge.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 26, 2014, 08:53:14 pm
What was that called again? Yes! Script abuse! And script abuse was bannable the last time I checked the rules! Why the double standarts? I'm starting to get so dissapointed by the people in charge.

I am starting to get disappointed by random ex-players/community members trying to somewhat point the blame towards others.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 26, 2014, 08:56:09 pm
What was that called again? Yes! Script abuse! And script abuse was bannable the last time I checked the rules! Why the double standarts? I'm starting to get so dissapointed by the people in charge.

You don't even play RS5, so we don't need opinion of people that are only here to shit on those who work for players.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on April 26, 2014, 11:04:26 pm
Anything that's abused in the context of roleplay is handed in a roleplay way. Abusing scripts out with roleplay is an admin matter. Devin gave a good example.
Sorry for the ancient quote but...
You are wrong, many times ive been punished in a scripted way while i was roleplaying MY CHARACTER and breaking SAPD rules (by roleplaying, i wasnt randomly dming people around or doing other dumb stuff)but some people really dont care about it and just /copban, i mean they dont try to approach you in a RP way like some other people do, i remeber a sergeant back in RS4 that always RPed in those situations, maybe that's why im no longer so active on the server... I no longer get that rp feel that made me spend hundred of hours on the server.
These days i see people getting less harsh punishments for random dm than i recieve in RP situations...
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huskar on April 27, 2014, 02:09:22 am
I started to read the topic but then i stopped i got the point its one more crying topic from you Cofiliano, when you will stop man?


And yes cops are dming of course. Some criminal gets owned and he is like : omg cops dming, omg admins you don't temp ban them bla bla bla. Hold on ! there are procedures, admins can't instant /tempban when they see report without investigating, so please play and damn enjoy and stop moaning for fuck sake.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 27, 2014, 04:37:42 am
I will reply to the other "on-topic" arguments later.



But this isn't the main problem, yet that the HQ must find a way to bring back admin punishment toward the individuals who abuses /duty script.

I for one think that a Veteran cop who abuses the duty, should get copbanned for a month at least, and even that is a softer punishment then he should really received and that's a ban for 10-15 days.

And yes , current copban is nothing.

I actually agree here. Copban should be extended proportional to the experience of the officer affected. Furthermore, it should be a separate punishment from anything given (e.g: temporary/permanent demotions) so as to increase the strength of the sanctions.



It'd be pretty much good if you, leaders&managers, choose trusted people of the server (like 6 or 8) to represent the Argonath Players, as I don't see ARUN working at all, and that it's leader is quite inactive.

What would the basis for "trusted people of the server" be? Would it be popularity, such as the amount of votes, a method racked by scandals such as the widespread cheating in Oscars? (hence why majority vote is not a good idea in Argonath)
Would it be the leadership/representation of groups, which is already used for ARUN?
Would it be 100% choice of the HQ, after which you people will complain again that HQ are being biased and accuse the "representatives" of being people who asslicked to get their jobs?

Call me cynical, but knowing the Argonath community, those are the likely outcomes. That's what you people always do.



A player, the managers think that he's good enough to represent us.
ARUN is dead, Devin is the only one I see working, so I came up with this idea, to get some fellows who Devin trust in, to help him and others.
Does ARUN still exist?

As ARUN Adviser, I'll be the first to admit progress has been slow, and in behalf of ARUN I apologize. As of now we are waiting on the ARUN forum to be fixed, and the webmaster/s have not done anything about it to date.

As for the organizational aspect of framework, there is a lot of work ongoing behind the scenes so as to provide a better performance and experience. Progress has already been made, and it should be visible soon.

I cannot divulge all the details (yet), but I can say that should everything go as planned, every single ARUN Delegate will have their own responsibilities in the ARUN, tasks that would contribute to the positive change within groups and the server itself. Expect heavier responsibilities, but bigger benefits.

All I know is that ARUN leader if I'm not wrong wanted to close one group that should not be named and make his own group better.

You may as well namedrop Phillip_Ancelotti and the said group so as to prove your statement, rather than throwing rumors and hearsay around. After all, facts should have accompanying names.



Are you his attorney?

Yes, let's pretend that he wasn't implying that the op is crying. His post was just as provoking as mine, so get off my case.

Five years on the server, and you still believe that rulebreaking against someone because they broke the rules against you is still okay?

Brian doesn't have to be anyone's attorney. It could be anyone calling you out for what you did, and they'd still be right.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 27, 2014, 10:58:33 am
Provocations removed and user warned.
Either you keep this topic nice and friendly and speak like mature and responsible people or it will be closed.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Pandalink on April 27, 2014, 11:41:55 am
Provocations removed and user warned.
What about this one?

I started to read the topic but then i stopped i got the point its one more crying topic from you Cofiliano, when you will stop man?


And yes cops are dming of course. Some criminal gets owned and he is like : omg cops dming, omg admins you don't temp ban them bla bla bla. Hold on ! there are procedures, admins can't instant /tempban when they see report without investigating, so please play and damn enjoy and stop moaning for f**k sake.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 27, 2014, 11:49:03 am
What about this one?


No provocation on this one and it has an argument.
Now go back on topic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 27, 2014, 12:13:56 pm
I am starting to get disappointed by random ex-players/community members trying to somewhat point the blame towards others.

What the hell are you guys talking about? I play in the server for Christs sakes..

Provocations removed and user warned.
Either you keep this topic nice and friendly and speak like mature and responsible people or it will be closed.

You forgot to remove your own provocation and warn yourself:

You don't even play RS5, so we don't need opinion of people that are only here to shit on those who work for players.
Excuse me? I play on RS5, in fact, I've been one of the most enthusiastic RS5 supporters when the whole "We hate RS5" forum trend started, and yet you tell me this? Who are you to say that you do not need someones opinion? What you've said is wrong, plain wrong, and provocative as well.  Someone who works for the players? Yeees.. Right, because saying "No way, we don't like what 90 percent of the community is demanding, therefore it's not gonna happen" is indeed working for the players. If you were really here to work for the players, you would actually listen to what they have to say and work to get what players want implemented, not silence them just like you're trying to do right now. And even if my activity has decreased for other reasons than real life, it's because of people like you.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on April 27, 2014, 12:16:04 pm
You know where to go if you want to moan.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 27, 2014, 12:19:57 pm
What the hell are you guys talking about? I play in the server for Christs sakes..

You forgot to remove your own provocation and warn yourself:
Excuse me? I play on RS5, in fact, I've been one of the most enthusiastic RS5 supporters when the whole "We hate RS5" forum trend started, and yet you tell me this? Who are you to say that you do not need someones opinion? What you've said is wrong, plain wrong, and provocative as well.  Someone who works for the players? Yeees.. Right, because saying "No way, we don't like what 90 percent of the community is demanding, therefore it's not gonna happen" is indeed working for the players. If you were really here to work for the players, you would actually listen to what they have to say and work to get what players want implemented, not silence them just like you're trying to do right now. And even if my activity has decreased for other reasons than real life, it's because of people like you.

Cease your drama. You only played 11 hours, 38 minutes, 0 seconds since December 2013.
And for your information, Argonath is not a democracy. It's not because 25 players out of the 8575 players that have an account on RS5 wants something that it will be done.
This topic doesn't represent 90 percent of the playing community. It actually represent something like 0.029%.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Antonio. on April 27, 2014, 12:24:40 pm
This topic doesn't represent 90 percent of the playing community. It actually represent something like 0.029%.
This topic was made for SA:MP, and considering there are usually no more than 50 players online, your statement is wrong. :)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 27, 2014, 12:27:53 pm
And those 50 players are the exact same 50 all day every day? I think not.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 27, 2014, 03:21:28 pm
And those 50 players are the exact same 50 all day every day? I think not.

We're talking about regular players here.

Cease your drama. You only played 11 hours, 38 minutes, 0 seconds since December 2013.

You do realise some people have something called life? What you're suggesting is that if you're not a no-lifer, you're not an Argonathian. Really. I loyaly played since 2010 like 4 hours daily, if not even more, and just because I'm currently on my tenth grade, one of the most important stages of my life, since I have to study for the exams which will determine if I'm worth continuing to the other grades or not, therefore I cant afford spending a lot of time in Argonath, it does not make me any less of an argonath player than you. The problem is you're refusing the players opinion, and it's always been like that, no matter how players protest it, management always ignores them. Keep running away from truth and hang on your "Argonath is not a democracy" thing. We all already have seen consequences of that - player count has dropped from 80+ daily to 20 on weekdays and a little bit more than fifty on weekends. Open your eyes - you need players, and if you want players, you have to satisfy them. This kind of thinking is not bringing this community anywhere, and yet you say you serve the players. Ironic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 27, 2014, 03:36:23 pm
20 on week days? That shows how inactive you are.
Don't speak about things you don't know.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on April 27, 2014, 03:44:33 pm
If you cannot discuss something, and claim to be a community, without turning hostile - don't you dare calling yourselves a community.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 27, 2014, 05:46:38 pm
If you cannot discuss something, and claim to be a community, without turning hostile - don't you dare calling yourselves a community.

You will find that staff in general don't have a problem here. We react firmly because of attempts by to shit on our work and/or this community, or people who just don't know how to properly deliver a point without destroying someone. Even if I disagree with something a team member says at the highest level, I could approach them (with common sense and respect) and have a civil discussion about it that doesn't lead to personal attacks and X blaming Y for the state of the community.

You will also find that the real problem lies with players who don't bother to appreciate the effort done, to cooperate with some admins' effort to bring about positive change, and/or blackpaint the administration just because things aren't being done exactly the way they want it. "Admins are open to your concerns" does not mean "Admins are ready to lick your ass".

This includes those who put on cute politician acts, trying to harness "public outrage" to glorify themselves at the expense of the administration's reputation. Those who uphold and spread bullshit that it is "cool" to have a viewpoint opposite that of the administration's. I don't care whose side they were on during the RS4 v. RS5 fiasco, but if they continue to badmouth the current efforts being done to keep this community afloat, then they are no better than the disloyal players.

There is a reason why many of those players usually opposed to admin views usually have dirty punishment records, which would usually be their inability to listen to rules (sometimes, those that are made of as little as two words) and to authority in general. "Rebellious teenage kids" at their worst who think that authority is bad and that disobeying is cool. Or it could be a coping mechanism to heal their e-penis because they couldn't take how they were punished at times by certain admins.

So we can try and do our best, but if some players just refuse to be helped unless we acquiescence to the point of becoming their personal nannies who do everything they want, then there is no helping them. "Community" is a two-way street, and as far as I have seen, the administration is doing its best to uphold its side. While our primary goal is to serve the community, sometimes we have to stand firm, and that includes protecting players from themselves at times.

Lastly, if the "rule by majority" is truly what is best for the community, then I challenge those who champion it to enlighten me on how our past Oscars Awards (which were the biggest displays of majority decision) all had high levels of integrity, professionalism, honesty, and were free of cheating. Please, do go on. Ill be waiting.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on April 27, 2014, 05:52:36 pm
You will find that administration members in general don't have a problem here. We react firmly because of attempts by players to shit on our work and/or this community, or people who just don't know how to properly deliver a point in general. Even if I disagree with something a team member says at the highest level, I could approach them (with common sense and respect) and have a civil discussion about it that doesn't lead to personal attacks and people blaming Manager X for the state of the community.

You will also find that the real problem lies with players who don't bother to appreciate the effort done, to cooperate with some admins' effort to bring about positive change, and/or blackpaint the administration just because things aren't being done exactly the way they want it.

This includes those who put on cute politician acts, trying to harness "public outrage" to glorify themselves at the expense of the administration's reputation. Those who uphold and spread bullshit that it is "cool" to have a viewpoint opposite that of the administration's. I don't care whose side they were on during the RS4 v. RS5 fiasco, but if they continue to badmouth the current efforts being done to keep this community afloat, then they are no better than the disloyal players.

Sorry, but there is a reason why those players usually have dirty punishment records, which would usually be their inability to listen to rules (sometimes, those that are made of as little as two words) and to authority in general. "Rebellious teenage kids" at their worst who think that authority is bad and that disobeying is cool.

So we can try and do our best, but if some players just refuse to be helped unless we acquiescence to the point of becoming their personal nannies who do everything they want, then there is no helping them. "Community" is a two-way street, and as far as I have seen, the administration is doing its best to uphold its side. While our primary goal is to serve the community, sometimes we have to stand firm, and that includes protecting players from themselves at times.

Lastly, if the "rule by majority" some people here champion is truly what is best for the community, then I challenge those who champion it to enlighten me on how our past Oscars Awards (which were the biggest displays of majority decision) all had high levels of integrity, professionalism, honesty, and were free of cheating. Please, do go on. Ill be waiting.

Great speech on my reply, if only it was related to my reply it would of been perfect !

Let me explain to you, where it is going wrong (and yes, you will be able to write a 5000 word reply after i'm done..):

- Player epicsheepdick enters the server
- Player epicsheepdick is a regular on the server
- Player epicsheepdick constantly abuses script / does not follow the rules etc.
- Player epicsheepdick has been banned twice allready

ONE YEAR LATER

- epicsheepdick gets banned
- epicsheepdick has been warned numerous times verbally, now by command (ban)

5 WEEKS LATER

- Epicsheepdick is unbanned, welcome back to our community !!


Logic ? Find me the logic in this scenario and i'll give you a beer... Guess i'll be drinking alone...
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 27, 2014, 05:55:34 pm
Great speech on my reply, if only it was related to my reply it would of been perfect !

Let me explain to you, where it is going wrong (and yes, you will be able to write a 5000 word reply after i'm done..):

- Player epicsheepdick enters the server
- Player epicsheepdick is a regular on the server
- Player epicsheepdick constantly abuses script / does not follow the rules etc.
- Player epicsheepdick has been banned twice allready

ONE YEAR LATER

- epicsheepdick gets banned
- epicsheepdick has been warned numerous times verbally, now by command (ban)

5 WEEKS LATER

- Epicsheepdick is unbanned, welcome back to our community !!


Logic ? Find me the logic in this scenario and i'll give you a beer... Guess i'll be drinking alone...

Then I guess you are already drunk, as my "speech" was actually relevant to your reply.

You've been away for a long time, and are not updated on how things work anymore. The administration has grown stricter (the details of which I cannot divulge, for obvious reasons) since the release of RS5, and now there are more ways to punish and control troublemakers.

Especially "DM groups", which were once one of our biggest problems.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on April 27, 2014, 06:00:51 pm
Then I guess you are already drunk, as my "speech" was actually relevant to your reply.

You've been away for a long time, and are not updated on how things work anymore. The administration has grown stricter (the details of which I cannot divulge, for obvious reasons) since the release of RS5, and now there are more ways to punish and control troublemakers.

Especially "DM groups", which were once one of our biggest problems.

You really know what is the problem of 'the community' nowadays? Nobody is affraid of breaking the rules, because hey ! they won't ban me so who the flying fuck cares?
And hey, if someone risks banning me, i'll be back in a few weeks !

And for your information, I know whats going on better than you think ;-)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 27, 2014, 06:04:18 pm
JDC, no offense but man.. How do you not get tired? You write a freaking speech for every single reply! You should go participate in some politics instead, not be stuck in a computer game server forum  :lol:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 27, 2014, 06:07:24 pm
You really know what is the problem of 'the community' nowadays? Nobody is affraid of breaking the rules, because hey ! they won't ban me so who the flying f**k cares?
And hey, if someone risks banning me, i'll be back in a few weeks !

Nowadays? That has always been the problem of the community before. With players in groups who rulebreak risking the shutdown / demotion of their group, and individual regular rulebreakers staying banned for longer periods of time (some even permanent, which I hope would become more), it would be stupid to say the administration is not working to eliminate it.

And for your information, I know whats going on better than you think ;-)

Unless you have access to information in the admin boards, you are not in a position to say how we work.



JDC, no offense but man.. How do you not get tired? You write a freaking speech for every single reply! You should go participate in some politics instead, not be stuck in a computer game server forum  :lol:

I attend to University academics almost half the day, full-time work during the other almost-half, am active in student organizations / politics (along with some projects involving the regional government), still find time to attend to social life and all my Argonath responsibilities, and sleep after. So I'm pretty much comfortable, thank you.

Good time management is awesome, sometimes I can't help but wish I learned it earlier.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 27, 2014, 06:38:35 pm
Back to the topic.

I respect you Cofi but this topic is really about players being unsatisfied how administration handles punishments,and none or less you have been in skin where an whiny ass spams your pm because in his opinion your punishment should have been different.

Same it's here when talk goes about cops. None should speak who have not been an admin on this server,you may ask why? Simply because you are blind folded and don't see how administration works.

Cops who use duty and roleplay an corruption does considers an SAPD case.
That's why you are asked report at ARPD when you are unsatisfied with investigation and asked go to jail cell.
When you get deathmatched by cop and shot while cuffed,it's abusing server scripts to gain advantage.
Therefore ban,Cyril have proved above by some player posting ss.

Players are not missed out and never been,you should know it better than others Cofi as you been administration your self.

As about players like Manas or w/e balla guy,you are typical argonath player who considers that everything must be alerted or else you feel that your report is ignored and actions not taken.
Which is not true,players are punished various ways based on action and scenario,and how much intention player input to cause rulebreak.

As about constant dms from cop duty side,contribution you might ask? Lock server or play singleplayer.

Respect to you Cofi for dedication writing this topic as an old veteran player who have done so much input into community.

As about others,do not reply my message unless you have been apart of admin family on this server,thank you. :)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 27, 2014, 09:14:52 pm
A player, the managers think that he's good enough to represent us.
ARUN is dead, Devin is the only one I see working, so I came up with this idea, to get some fellows who Devin trust in, to help him and others.
Unfortunately ARUN was a great idea, that was doomed on being a failed as soon as it was established, and I don't wanna talk details on why, cause its a long story.

I agree with you and your idea,somehow I practice it, talking with Devin Gimli and others scripters from time to time about best moves to implement, and some progress was made, mostly on drug script and groups help.
I invited all groups from the start to join this unofficial ARUN, even had the first meeting with representatives of most groups with HQ, but  somehow the rest of guys weren't so much into it.


@ Chris
Cheers to you lad.

Like I wrote on the first reply on the topic, this isn't about being unsatisfied with admin punishment, cause admins practice the ways of punishment that they were told to do by HQ. Admins didnt came alone with the 'go report on sapd forum' for everything, they were told to do so.
This  has ran out of its course, you as being a civilian or a criminal must follow more rules and laws then cops, and that's not the problem so much ( as in it is a problem, but you get used to it), the problem is that certain individuals are constantly using this benefit to do massive Dming and script abusing, without them having any consequences, then being copban for 2 hours.

We're all here to see what we can all do to change this, cause this is something that is bad not just for civilians who are getting massively bullied and annoyed yet its all up to them to prove that on forum that's almost impossible, yet its bad for the good and regular cops, for FBI and SAPD, who are getting a bad name cause of it, and people act even more hostile toward then, although they dont deserve that.

This is a huge problem, we can't just ignore this and say its fine at the moment its not fine you can see the entire Community has a problem with it, if something doesn't gonna be changed about it and fast, its just gonna rise and rise until the moment we'll either have a community devided like a civil war which will last for long time, or we're all should go on /duty just so we can play in peace.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 27, 2014, 09:18:04 pm
Like I wrote on the first reply on the topic, this isn't about being unsatisfied with admin punishment, cause admins practice the ways of punishment that they were told to do by HQ. Admins didnt came alone with the 'go report on sapd forum' for everything, they were told to do so.

Completely false. HQ doesn't order admins what punishment they should use.
Admins are free to use the punishment they think it's the best for the situation.

This is a huge problem, we can't just ignore this and say its fine at the moment its not fine you can see the entire Community has a problem with it, if something doesn't gonna be changed about it and fast, its just gonna rise and rise until the moment we'll either have a community devided like a civil war which will last for long time, or we're all should go on /duty just so we can play in peace.

You might lose your official status then. As you are supposed to be a role model for other. I doubt engaging a war against the administration is a very good idea for your own benefit. You have way more to lose than to gain.

And please, don't act as the WHOLE Community has a problem with it. It's only a few minority.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Zaila on April 27, 2014, 09:52:16 pm
I have only read the first 2 pages on this topic so if i'm way off, please say so.



The administration team has been told to only act on rulebreaking when it comes to server rules, exactly like any other player. If they are breaking SAPD rules and procedures (if they are now SAPD and not FBI), they should be reported to SAPD.

I have seen 2 examples in here, /su abuse and deathmatching.

When it comes to /su abuse, it can be several solutions depending on how someone is abused through /su.

Lets say i'm getting randomly suspected by a player for a crime i haven't done. The officer that suspected me is only trying to arrest me, then it's a SAPD matter. /su was used correctly from a administrative PoV (aka to suspect someone) but the regulations SAPD have for /su was broken which means no server rule was broken.

If i would be randomly suspected by a police officer for a crime i have not done and then instantly killed, then it would be considered deathmatching and it becomes an administrative matter since the police officer broke a server rule.

The same with just deathmatching in general. If a police officer is deathmatching a player then it's an administrative matter and should be handled by a staff member online. They should not be reported to SAPD in that case.

I will bring this up on our next staff meeting to make sure that everyone is up to date on this matter.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: .James on April 27, 2014, 10:20:59 pm
Regarding my previous post;
Actually, I suggest SAMP LEADERSHIP to be the ones who choose "those players".
And if anybody moaned about it, then it's no use.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 27, 2014, 10:34:16 pm
I have only read the first 2 pages on this topic so if i'm way off, please say so.



The administration team has been told to only act on rulebreaking when it comes to server rules, exactly like any other player. If they are breaking SAPD rules and procedures (if they are now SAPD and not FBI), they should be reported to SAPD.

I have seen 2 examples in here, /su abuse and deathmatching.

When it comes to /su abuse, it can be several solutions depending on how someone is abused through /su.

Lets say i'm getting randomly suspected by a player for a crime i haven't done. The officer that suspected me is only trying to arrest me, then it's a SAPD matter. /su was used correctly from a administrative PoV (aka to suspect someone) but the regulations SAPD have for /su was broken which means no server rule was broken.

If i would be randomly suspected by a police officer for a crime i have not done and then instantly killed, then it would be considered deathmatching and it becomes an administrative matter since the police officer broke a server rule.

The same with just deathmatching in general. If a police officer is deathmatching a player then it's an administrative matter and should be handled by a staff member online. They should not be reported to SAPD in that case.

I will bring this up on our next staff meeting to make sure that everyone is up to date on this matter.
I would disagree,imo random suspection to gain money is script abuse,like any other script usage for own benefits.  Suspecting in Jcs style is an roleplay abusage which I support and consider an dirty player conspiration can be good as far both agree about it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Zaila on April 27, 2014, 10:43:19 pm
I would disagree,imo random suspection to gain money is script abuse,like any other script usage for own benefits.

Of course, but where do we drag the line? I have no idea if a player is allowed to request an investigation inside the police station like in RS4 but if they are, then i would say request an investigation, if the situation is similar to what i wrote in my previous post. However, if you do feel that the intervention of a staff member is needed, then you are of course allowed to do so. However, it's up to the staff member taking the report to decide how a situation should be taken care of if it involves /su abuse with no deathmatching.

My suggestions is to try to solve the situation as much as possible in a RP manner without involing the staff team though.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on April 27, 2014, 10:50:59 pm
My suggestions is to try to solve the situation as much as possible in a RP manner without involing the staff team though.

Indeed. People are way too fast with /report 69 omg suabuse!!11 or evading then moaning in /p when they die instead of giving up instantly and roleplay an investigation.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 27, 2014, 11:04:12 pm
Yes indeed. But it's easy to be said for administration,as wrath of redname makes you invincible for interupting your gameplay.
As I've been cop,admin,criminal each long terms.
I can say that as a criminal you just get annoyed by suspection abuse,I mean first it's rp as much yes and stuff,but it just keeps interupting your gameplay,your roleplay scenarios and overall attempting relax and enjoy the game. 
So when you just get abused over and over and over and over again it makes you from an player enjoying his time and roleplaying to an unsatisfied player suffering an other people boredom or cyber material demand aka money .
So spending at least half of the time you are able to play with friends,in an investigation room just because 70 % of server are cops,is not going to make happy anyone,you gotta agree with this.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 28, 2014, 12:21:16 am
Completely false. HQ doesn't order admins what punishment they should use.
Admins are free to use the punishment they think it's the best for the situation.
Oh so you become an admin, and then you're leased to do what ever you think you should? Tell that story to someone else mate.
HQ provides a policy to admins how they should handle certain situations, saying this is completely false just ends up you looking like a lier.

And no provocation on this one and it has an argument.


You might lose your official status then. As you are supposed to be a role model for other. I doubt engaging a war against the administration is a very good idea for your own benefit. You have way more to lose than to gain.
You might want to watch the way you're addressing people, you got a big attitude problem, and that's your personal thing, but you as a manager should be careful on what you say,  not publish treat based on your spinning what I've said. You are suppose to be the guy who take actions in this things not happening, or working on it so it wont happen in the future, not ignore the whole problem, call all of us here names, and act like the King isn't naked.

None in the scenario I said is included Me, nor am I gonna lead any war with anyone.
I'm the one pointing on a problem so we can take measures in prevention.
I'm talking about situations that we already had and it didn't end up good for anyone, and in general for the Community.
We don't have a luxury to commit same mistakes, like we did before, and that's all this topic is about.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Zaila on April 28, 2014, 12:29:55 am
So when you just get abused over and over and over and over again it makes you from an player enjoying his time and roleplaying to an unsatisfied player suffering an other people boredom or cyber material demand aka money .
If someone is getting suspected several times in a row by a player, then i agree it becomes an administrative matter as it's obvious that the police officer is just there to grief the players playtime.

So spending at least half of the time you are able to play with friends,in an investigation room just because 70 % of server are cops,is not going to make happy anyone,you gotta agree with this.
I both agree and disagree with you on it.

I understand that when you play on a server like this, you want to do whatever you want to do. However, as it's an online game with many players online, things will not go according to your own plans all the time. If you play online, you always must understand that other factors will change things for you and you will simply have to accept that.

HQ provides a policy to admins how they should handle certain situations, saying this is completely false just ends up you looking like a lier.
But he's not lying. We do not have carved into stone what exactly our staff members should do in any kind of situation. We got guidelines in common situations which is giving suggestions on what to do, however how they solve a situation is entirely up to them as long as they dont step outside of the line (like banning someone for randomly saying "fuck" in public chat).
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 28, 2014, 12:35:37 am
Oh so you become an admin, and then you're leased to do what ever you think you should? Tell that story to someone else mate.
HQ provides a policy to admins how they should handle certain situations, saying this is completely false just ends up you looking like a lier.

Indeed HQ provides administrators with scenarios and possible solutions to those matters in order to try and give them a ground to start with when they first join the administration team.
Even though we do provide them with problems and solutions, it's up to the individual administration members discretion as to how they handle matters.

We give them guidelines to follow but that does not mean they have to be spot on to what we say or do the exact same thing for every scenario. They may handle issues as they see fit.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 28, 2014, 03:34:58 am
What you said, and what Zaila wrote, is completely agreeable with what I wrote.

Now that we established that HQ gives guidelines and policy on how they should act in certain situations, and we established that's not completely false, I think that this can be a method of resolving this major problem that's like a cancer, if not completely then at least a major impact which will minimize this problem to a acceptable level. And the best part of it, it doesn't take much resources, time, or anything in implementing.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: eymas on April 28, 2014, 09:58:52 am
I've said this a few times before:
Quote
"We need to witness the rule in question being broken in order to act upon it."

Since that's how we operate  ;)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 28, 2014, 11:04:42 am
What you said, and what Zaila wrote, is completely agreeable with what I wrote.

Now that we established that HQ gives guidelines and policy on how they should act in certain situations, and we established that's not completely false, I think that this can be a method of resolving this major problem that's like a cancer, if not completely then at least a major impact which will minimize this problem to a acceptable level. And the best part of it, it doesn't take much resources, time, or anything in implementing.

Administrators are given an idea of how to handle situations appropriately, if they feel their method works better then they may use it.
I don't see why anything needs to be changed because people want others to get punished more and more for things when they could just be guided better to begin with. If it's a regular breaking the rules while on duty I am sure the administration members would deal with it appropriately.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 28, 2014, 02:29:14 pm
20 on week days? That shows how inactive you are.
Don't speak about things you don't know.
It's ridiculous how you're telling players who are less active because of school that they're no longer welcome here and they should fuck off. I've played RS5 since it's broken beta was released instead of RS4, and only when the final version released, I got to studying to exams as they were getting awfully close, so stop feeding me that nonsense, it wont work on me, I know just as much as you do, at last, it doesn't take a genius to take a look at the player count once in a while, which I do quite often. Now if you really want to play that game, let's make a deal, I'll send you a screenshot of player count on the SA:MP server each day, do you really want to take it to that? At this time normally there would be atleast 50 people online, now take a look at this, when the RS4 was present, you could have never imagined that Argonath would loose so many players and you'd be forced to play with only 20-30 people. But they didnt leave because of RS5, they left because their voice was constantly ignored, and they'd be told that "their opinion is not needed". Keep dreaming in whatever wonderland you want to live in, but you wont run away from the truth.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/51wum8.png)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 28, 2014, 02:34:35 pm
It's ridiculous how you're telling players who are less active because of school that they're no longer welcome here and they should f**k off. I've played RS5 since it's broken beta was released instead of RS4, and only when the final version released, I got to studying to exams as they were getting awfully close, so stop feeding me that nonsense, it wont work on me, I know just as much as you do, at last, it doesn't take a genius to take a look at the player count once in a while, which I do quite often. Now if you really want to play that game, let's make a deal, I'll send you a screenshot of player count on the SA:MP server each day, do you really want to take it to that? At this time normally there would be atleast 50 people online, now take a look at this, when the RS4 was present, you could have never imagined that Argonath would loose so many players and you'd be forced to play with only 20-30 people. But they didnt leave because of RS5, they left because their voice was constantly ignored, and they'd be told that "their opinion is not needed". Keep dreaming in whatever wonderland you want to live in, but you wont run away from the truth.

The Player count raise day by day. Players voice were heard, as most script in-game come from their suggestion.
Currently 35 players are online. Of course it's not thanks to you, but thanks to our loyal players and the effort of Devin and our scripters.
Go back to your corner and moan there, thanks.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huskar on April 28, 2014, 03:32:29 pm
Like I wrote on the first reply on the topic, this isn't about being unsatisfied with admin punishment, cause admins practice the ways of punishment that they were told to do by HQ. Admins didnt came alone with the 'go report on sapd forum' for everything, they were told to do so.


This is not right , ive been admin and ive never been told what punishment i should use. Theres guide you read it when you become moderator and that is. After that its all your own, you punish him and if its wrong you get punished by managers simple as that. But trust me admins doesn't punish you because they hate you, its their job. Just try to see what will happen in the server if admins are not strict ?

And you can't handle rulebreaker, carjacker, and dmer? go play The Sims
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 28, 2014, 03:35:27 pm
It's ridiculous how you're telling players who are less active because of school that they're no longer welcome here and they should f**k off. I've played RS5 since it's broken beta was released instead of RS4, and only when the final version released, I got to studying to exams as they were getting awfully close, so stop feeding me that nonsense, it wont work on me, I know just as much as you do, at last, it doesn't take a genius to take a look at the player count once in a while, which I do quite often. Now if you really want to play that game, let's make a deal, I'll send you a screenshot of player count on the SA:MP server each day, do you really want to take it to that? At this time normally there would be atleast 50 people online, now take a look at this, when the RS4 was present, you could have never imagined that Argonath would loose so many players and you'd be forced to play with only 20-30 people. But they didnt leave because of RS5, they left because their voice was constantly ignored, and they'd be told that "their opinion is not needed". Keep dreaming in whatever wonderland you want to live in, but you wont run away from the truth.

Just because Argonath doesn't work the way you want to, that doesn't mean it is a mess.

Many of the new ideas that were implemented came from the players. They complain when their ideas are not considered, and they complain even more when their ideas are implemented. Some people should f**king learn how to make up their minds. Your voices were heard, and then this happened. Much of the blame belongs to no other but yourselves. Pointing fingers at the staff who work hard to fix this community will only make you look stupid.

Feel free to post on the state of the community when you've stopped spreading delusions and trying to gain some sort of (hope for) power through hopeless "politician" acts, perhaps the administration could actually take you seriously then.



I'm actually amazed at the astounding failure of many players to comprehend one thing.

The point of admin punishments is to maintain order and justice on the server, not to satisfy the e-penises of those who feel that they were wronged. While feedback may be nice now and then, admins are bound by no such obligation, and justice WILL be dealt regardless of whether we notify you or not.

We are here to keep things in order, not to bloat or coddle players' egos.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 28, 2014, 03:41:08 pm
Ironically enough, this quote fits right in.

Suggesting ideas does not mean all ideas are perfect and does not mean we will run to serve every idea the veterans suggest...

To all there around:

However, server turns into shit thanks to those who have no f**king idea about Argonath and f**king moan about every shit around...

Argonath is not supposed to be a place for pampers changes...
Cannot handle a dminger, rammer, noober, abooozer, adminner - go play The Sims...

Argonath never was a f**king kindergarten... So do not blame this server for being a GTA server...

For... f**k... sake...

Thank you all...
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Doggie on April 28, 2014, 03:46:16 pm
It's ridiculous how you're telling players who are less active because of school that they're no longer welcome here and they should f**k off. I've played RS5 since it's broken beta was released instead of RS4, and only when the final version released, I got to studying to exams as they were getting awfully close, so stop feeding me that nonsense, it wont work on me, I know just as much as you do, at last, it doesn't take a genius to take a look at the player count once in a while, which I do quite often. Now if you really want to play that game, let's make a deal, I'll send you a screenshot of player count on the SA:MP server each day, do you really want to take it to that? At this time normally there would be atleast 50 people online, now take a look at this, when the RS4 was present, you could have never imagined that Argonath would loose so many players and you'd be forced to play with only 20-30 people. But they didnt leave because of RS5, they left because their voice was constantly ignored, and they'd be told that "their opinion is not needed". Keep dreaming in whatever wonderland you want to live in, but you wont run away from the truth.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/51wum8.png)

Well said!  :app: :app: :app: :app: :app: :app: :app: :app: :app: :app: :app:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: TiMoN on April 28, 2014, 03:46:29 pm
Could someone please explain the point of this topic to me? Please.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 28, 2014, 03:46:41 pm
I miss Aragorn :D
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on April 28, 2014, 03:56:35 pm
Could someone please explain the point of this topic to me? Please.

Some people are angry because admins don't punish certain players in a way designed to cater to their need for reassurance / positive reinforcement. (or in simpler terms: satisfy their egos)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 28, 2014, 05:06:21 pm
If someone is getting suspected several times in a row by a player, then i agree it becomes an administrative matter as it's obvious that the police officer is just there to grief the players playtime.
I both agree and disagree with you on it.

I understand that when you play on a server like this, you want to do whatever you want to do. However, as it's an online game with many players online, things will not go according to your own plans all the time. If you play online, you always must understand that other factors will change things for you and you will simply have to accept that.

I agree,that's what exactly I meant by saying now and then investigation can be roleplayed.
I get the part where its an online gaming and each party should provide fun to other parties. Same with traffic stops and etc.
But I mean when you get pulled over 10 times a day just to hear 1. i'll check your license 2.your license is clear 3. you can go now and that all extended on 10 minutes each,and on top of that investigations 10 minutes each at least three times a day. I mean you gotta agree you spend really much time dedicated to law enforcement as citizen or criminal.

That's what generaly I believe Cofi is trying to voice mail.
People simply are tired of this overdose attention coming from cops towards civilians.
From enjoying it got them annoyed.

And that's why I belive we constantly hear "again abused" "again jailed" "again pulled over". because it's not even to discuss when ever officer indeed is aware of his actions or not,but simply the fact players receive that attention daily so much that they find easiest solution fastly punish officers by using report system,and that's why they feel as a need enforce stricter punishments from admin side on cops as server based rules not roleplay terms.

That's Imo tho.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 28, 2014, 05:55:27 pm
Oh my.. Yet another book to reply to.. I see you've got too much time on your hands.
who work hard to fix this community will only make you look stupid.
You see, in order to fix something, you must fix it to the point where everybody would be satisfied, which means you must listen to the players. If what's going on right now is what you call fixing, then thank god you're not a plumber, I wouldn't let you get anywhere my broken sink even if I was paid to. A considerable amount of players are agreeing to the issue that Cofi has put to our attention, yet administration still denies it. The players are the majority who plays here, not the admins or developers, therefore it should be wise atleast listening to what they have to say, and perhaps, offer an alternative solution if the one that Cofi is proposing cannot be done for some kind of uknown reasons. And even though /su abuse is not a rulebreak, who the hell prohibits the SA:MP management to edit the rules? If that's what the players want, then it is what it should be.

to gain some sort of (hope for) power through hopeless "politician" acts, perhaps the administration could actually take you seriously then.

You do realise how f**king ironic you sound right now?
Oh and by the way, I've got news for you: people already stopped taking you and your books seriously long ago, if you think otherwise, you might as well wipe that arrogance gained through asslicking everyone in power out of your eyes so you can finally see.

Quote
Of course it's not thanks to you, but thanks to our loyal players and the effort of Devin and our scripters.
Sure, because I'm no longer a loyal player just because I took a pause due to my studies. If I would not be planning on returning back to proper activity once my studies were done, I wouldn't be wasting my time here arguing with blind people in the first place.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 28, 2014, 06:10:51 pm
As chris said,
Situations where there is 90% probability to get abused by a cop without a valid reason-
- Alone in a backalley
- Walking on street alone
- Talking with friends on street
- Moving in convoy
- being armoured
-near weed spots
- When we approach a buy with the intention of RPing in the streets of LS. A cop intervenes for sure.

This has made daily life a joke. You can't roam around streets of Los Santos for an hour without being abused by a cop atleast once

and investigation, jailing suing goes on.
This slowly develops a hate for blue dots.
But that's not all, what cofi said was true in many cases i had seen.

This has to be changed. We can't go on face
license registration speed frisk every fcking 10 mins on a road  :cry:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 28, 2014, 06:12:46 pm
And even though /su abuse is not a rulebreak, who the hell prohibits the SA:MP management to edit the rules?

We don't invent new rules like that. It needs to be discussed within the HQ and approved by Gandalf.
And it would still be up to the admin to handle it as they wish.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 28, 2014, 06:13:03 pm
Rytuklis


Your arrogance and lack of understanding is only issue people might see here.

Zaila clearly mentioned it will be reviewed and discussed in admin meeting.
And you are no one to tell what admins do,you are none of them and never been to judge,so stick to your side but don't throw provocations around.

Players got an idea boards for stating what they wish to see differently,they are always reviewed and answered accordingly with cons and pluses. So again stick your head out of the arrogance shell and respect Jdc dedication even respond to your absurd.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 28, 2014, 06:26:15 pm
Rytuklis


Quote-"If you spit at sky, you know on whom spit falls on"
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Pandalink on April 28, 2014, 06:33:25 pm
Many of the new ideas that were implemented came from the players. They complain when their ideas are not considered, and they complain even more when their ideas are implemented. Some people should f**king learn how to make up their minds. Your voices were heard, and then this happened. Much of the blame belongs to no other but yourselves. Pointing fingers at the staff who work hard to fix this community will only make you look stupid.
Why does the police jurisdiction script still exist?

It's a perfect example of something that is only in because if it was removed like everyone wants it would be considered wasted development time. The bottom line? Shit happens, sometimes you have to ditch weeks/months of work because it was a bad idea and/or wasn't implemented well. It's an integral part of software development. Or hell, any development at all really.

Could someone please explain the point of this topic to me? Please.
Cofiliano raised the fact that players on duty receive lighter admin punishments than those not on duty for the same offenses.
He was questioning this practice.

Of course it's not thanks to you, but thanks to our loyal players and the effort of Devin and our scripters.
Go back to your corner and moan there, thanks.
This reply is astonishing. Like f**king astoundingly rude, beyond the level of it being appropriate for any player, let alone someone who's meant to set an example such as yourself. It's no wonder so many turn away from this community if this is what's acceptable.

Of course it's not thanks to you, but thanks to our loyal players and the effort of Devin and our scripters.
Sure, because I'm no longer a loyal player just because I took a pause due to my studies.
Yea, really.

What's up with the antagonisation, Cyril?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 28, 2014, 06:51:44 pm
We won't take shit from people that are not active on our server. Why? Because their opinions don't reflect the reality of what is going on in the server.
Yes some cops might abuse you sometimes, well deal with it. You reported it? Good, the admin will deal with it as he thinks it's the best.
Saying the HQ doesn't give a crap about players or don't listen to them, I'm sorry but it's bullshit.

Why does the police jurisdiction script still exist?

Because Gandalf wanted it to please players? People complained there were too many cops at LS and other part were empty, good, Gandalf listened to you (which again proved that we listen to the community) and implemented this. What is the result? People complain even more..
That's why most of your ideas are turned down, because it won't work. We don't have the same vision of the server. You only see what could benefit you, but when applied to the whole server, it's bound to fail.
Now, Jurisdiction might change in future, however for now it's not a priority at all.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 28, 2014, 07:48:53 pm
Rytuklis


Your arrogance and lack of understanding is only issue people might see here.

Zaila clearly mentioned it will be reviewed and discussed in admin meeting.
And you are no one to tell what admins do,you are none of them and never been to judge,so stick to your side but don't throw provocations around.

Players got an idea boards for stating what they wish to see differently,they are always reviewed and answered accordingly with cons and pluses. So again stick your head out of the arrogance shell and respect Jdc dedication even respond to your absurd.


My bad that I havent noticed Zaila's response - I was too hot-headed arguing with Cyril and JDC here.

Quote
So again stick your head out of the arrogance shell and respect Jdc dedication even respond to your absurd.
I'm sorry but I would really rather he would not.

This reply is astonishing. Like f**king astoundingly rude, beyond the level of it being appropriate for any player, let alone someone who's meant to set an example such as yourself. It's no wonder so many turn away from this community if this is what's acceptable.

That was exactly what I was trying to point out the entire time and that's why I just couldn't stop arguing. Finally someone who got atleast a percent of what I was trying to say, thank you!

Quote
We won't take shit from people that are not active on our server. Why?
So players only mean numbers to you, right? I've already told you I've been a very active member ever since 2010, and I've never been as inactive as I am now, and as I already said, that's because I'm currently having the most important exams of my life at the moment, to which I have to study and when these exams are over (and they will be very soon - on June) my activity will be back to what it was in 2010-2013. Just because I took a pause doesn't mean  I have no right to have a say in matters that regard the whole community.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 28, 2014, 08:14:59 pm
Okay we get the point, you were active.

It still does not change the fact that throwing statements like "HQ do not give two shits about the players opinions and requests" will not be tolerated from here on out.
I don't care if that's someone's opinion, they're welcome to it but by tossing statements like that over the forum or server I will not tolerate in the slightest.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Celso on April 28, 2014, 08:28:01 pm
You see someone abusing, and behaving badly has cops and you think it should end?
- Report it here Magic Link (http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/index.php?board=52.0)

If you think that what the officer did was too bad and should be reported to administration and not SAPD command.
- /report

Is it that hard to understand? is it easier to sit and moan about it, yes but if you keep moaning about those who break the rules, nothing will get fixed.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 28, 2014, 09:03:13 pm
You see someone abusing, and behaving badly has cops and you think it should end?
- Report it here Magic Link (http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/index.php?board=52.0)

If you think that what the officer did was too bad and should be reported to administration and not SAPD command.
- /report

Is it that hard to understand? is it easier to sit and moan about it, yes but if you keep moaning about those who break the rules, nothing will get fixed.

I can clearly see you have not read any of the post,especialy not the main Cofi wrote,if you can't dedicate of doing so,don't parcitipate in this discussion as your response can be understood only by your self.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on April 28, 2014, 10:56:25 pm
Because Gandalf wanted it to please players? People complained there were too many cops at LS and other part were empty, good, Gandalf listened to you (which again proved that we listen to the community) and implemented this. What is the result? People complain even more..
Yea, maybe a bit late? It has been suggested for 2 years during rs4 with 100 players at any hour and everybody was like "its not needed at all,SAPD can organize it without scripts" and other bullshit, instead of saying the truth "we havent got enough manpower to script it" or "it cant be implemented in the current script without rewriting it all"
Now in rs5 with an avarge 30 playercount (could be easily predicted as this was exactly what happened with rs4) you implement this new feature? Thanks guys really, we can now enjoy roaming in a ghost town! At the moment This feature is broken and who says the opposite is just a retarted!   -daily rage achieved
At this point why dont you add passports for each city and town and all the other shit ripped off from other servers that restrains citizens from moving from a certain location? So we'll be all happy

Im not complaining that this feature is broken but there are still some people that dont want to admit it
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Marcel on April 28, 2014, 11:01:58 pm
This might be a bit radical, but how would a modern remake of RS4 sound? Make it a hybrid: take all the good stuff from RS4 and RS5 and melt it together in a modern, fast, stable and secure script. This can be done easily by a well communicating and professional scripting team. Count me in if we're doing it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on April 28, 2014, 11:04:57 pm
This might be a bit radical, but how would a modern remake of RS4 sound? Make it a hybrid: take all the good stuff from RS4 and RS5 and melt it together in a modern, fast, stable and secure script. This can be done easily by a well communicating and professional scripting team. Count me in if we're doing it.
Finally a proper proposal and not just some vague arguments
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 28, 2014, 11:10:42 pm
RS5 has still time to evolve.
We are working on it every day.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Zaila on April 28, 2014, 11:18:13 pm
This might be a bit radical, but how would a modern remake of RS4 sound? Make it a hybrid: take all the good stuff from RS4 and RS5 and melt it together in a modern, fast, stable and secure script. This can be done easily by a well communicating and professional scripting team. Count me in if we're doing it.

And what would it solve? Nothing that has been brought up in this topic atleast (or what was suggested by Cofi in the first post).
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: ClazzyJogel on April 28, 2014, 11:58:11 pm
To get more on topic, I suggest that we focus on making the law enforcement more of a privilege, because only then people will take the responsibility at a higher level. Everyone seem to be complaining about the high number of officers aswell, why not reduce the salary and let the people that strives to do a proffesional job and not for the money have this privelege?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Brian on April 29, 2014, 12:35:31 am
To get more on topic, I suggest that we focus on making the law enforcement more of a privilege, because only then people will take the responsibility at a higher level. Everyone seem to be complaining about the high number of officers aswell, why not reduce the salary and let the people that strives to do a proffesional job and not for the money have this privelege?

Just a question, what salary?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Doggie on April 29, 2014, 12:38:29 am
Just a question, what salary?

I think he means the amount of money officers receive after jailing/killing a suspect.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 29, 2014, 12:40:52 am
We don't invent new rules like that. It needs to be discussed within the HQ and approved by Gandalf.
And it would still be up to the admin to handle it as they wish.
No ones asking for the new rules, we are actually asking for a stricter and equal apply of those on all, not just one the category of people who are not on /duty, the way it was before. At the moment that is abnormally not the case. And no can deny that.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Antonio. on April 29, 2014, 05:42:08 am
RS5 has still time to evolve.
We are working on it every day.
RS5 isn't close to being finished, feels like we're still in a BETA version. The only means of economy are fireman duty, basic stuff gets bugged occasionally, important scripts constantly being disabled, lack of players and active groups. Just SOME of the things that weren't a big of a problem before this "RS5" release.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 29, 2014, 06:44:20 am
In certain degree Antonio is right about economy. In my opinion why more than half of the server are cops at current situation is simply because there is no other way to earn money except fireman .

So at end the whole server is cops and firemans,and about 20% are citizens or criminals.
Criminal world is a dirty world with lots of risk,reward is easy money and Argonath people love money.
I believe if criminals will get an access to easy money,they might populate and families reorganize and get active again,as there will be a reward for activity and dedication to server evolving once again.

As people crime interest relay on veteran crime families/ganks they might dedicate them self's more to criminal side than cop side or fireman,so it will decrease police enforcement player interest.
Decrease attention given to specified citizen from cop side,and at end even cop leading thinking twice before suspect abusing strong standing crime member as revenge will breath in his neck in each corner.   :strong:

Imo tho,imo.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 29, 2014, 09:07:53 am
.

So at end the whole server is cops and firemans,and about 20% are citizens or criminals.
Criminal world is a dirty world with lots of risk,reward is easy money and Argonath people love money.


Criminal earning is as equal to a earning of mechanic + added risk. RS4 had good criminal earning.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on April 29, 2014, 03:03:48 pm
The only way to solve this issue is to remove the voluntary police officers.. Freecops gotta go.. Especially with such player count, it would also benefit to the variety of players, since most of them are cops anyways (as suggested in another topic.)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Pandalink on April 29, 2014, 03:09:18 pm
The only way to solve this issue is to remove the voluntary police officers.. Freecops gotta go.. Especially with such player count, it would also benefit to the variety of players, since most of them are cops anyways (as suggested in another topic.)
Nono, that's a terrible idea. Freecops are integral to Argonath - the chance for anyone to log in and go be a cop is very important.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: saberman on April 29, 2014, 03:15:13 pm
The only way to solve this issue is to remove the voluntary police officers.. Freecops gotta go.. Especially with such player count, it would also benefit to the variety of players, since most of them are cops anyways (as suggested in another topic.)
We can always encourage other roles like civilian or criminals. This imo should be the last way to deal with it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Marcel on April 29, 2014, 03:19:14 pm
And what would it solve? Nothing that has been brought up in this topic atleast (or what was suggested by Cofi in the first post).
I think the main problem it would solve would be the playercount. If more players play on the server at once, a more viable economy will emerge eventually, supported by small injections or naturally.

Also, if there are more players, the cities and towns will be less deserted, causing police officers to cause less problems by deathmatching innocent players or suspecting for bad reasons.

I'm just brainstorming here and trying to contribute to solving our problems. If you have another vision or idea, please share it with me.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 29, 2014, 05:07:08 pm
The only way to solve this issue is to remove the voluntary police officers.. Freecops gotta go.. Especially with such player count, it would also benefit to the variety of players, since most of them are cops anyways (as suggested in another topic.)
From my experience, its not the newplayers who abuses script while on /duty, its mostly the veterans who troll around.
New players even when they do that, its cause they weren't teach/told not to do such thing, and if you spend 4 minutes on him, he''ll realize his mistakes, and hopefully wont continue doing them.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on April 29, 2014, 06:00:49 pm
OK, if freecops go, i will definitely go with them, i dont have enough time to do applications, trainings and all the other useless shit.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Marcel on April 29, 2014, 07:17:47 pm
OK, if freecops go, i will definitely go with them, i dont have enough time to do applications, trainings and all the other useless shit.
Don't worry, freecops have always been an integral part of our community in complete coherence with the Argonath Vision. I highly doubt it will change anytime soon.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Rusty on April 29, 2014, 07:49:10 pm
It already did change, freecops don't exist anymore the name is now defunct and every cop works under SAPD as one.  You aren't forced to make applications or any of that, but you do have to comply with the set guidelines SAPD works by.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 29, 2014, 09:21:07 pm
So in example, if a cop in pursuit DB on a suspect vehicle which is an Admiral in example, isn't allowed for all cops? Ofc if the suspect/s didn't DB on them?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 29, 2014, 09:27:38 pm
So in example, if a cop in pursuit DB on a suspect vehicle which is an Admiral in example, isn't allowed for all cops? Ofc if the suspect/s didn't DB on them?

Even if your car is slower and you don't DB, cops can DB you in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on April 29, 2014, 09:30:51 pm
So in example, if a cop in pursuit DB on a suspect vehicle which is an Admiral in example, isn't allowed for all cops? Ofc if the suspect/s didn't DB on them?
If you are a murderer dont expect cops to take it easy with you
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 29, 2014, 09:32:30 pm
So in example, if a cop in pursuit DB on a suspect vehicle which is an Admiral in example, isn't allowed for all cops? Ofc if the suspect/s didn't DB on them?
I believe it's really horribly informed about what laws does apply for random guy passing cop tutorial.
Simply because new players are not guided and won't spend they time registering at ARPD forums and reading all SAPD constitutions SAPD faction follows by. So reporting an newcomer at ARPD forum passing a cop tutorial because he example driveby slower vehicle or apparently didn't use cop car,is wrong,and as you stated,4 minutes with the guy will do the job more than fine.

The only reason why I see this topic is being made is simply due the fact cops are overhelming citizens with they amount and boredom. They don't have any material to process or actually do anything than just drive around state and report on police radio c4 over and over.
I believe if increase rewards to criminals for risk they have by having criminal life,it will increase player amount switching the side ,and decreasing law enforcement count,especially paying so much attention to each citizen because there is so small of them.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huskar on April 29, 2014, 10:21:35 pm
I still wonder why this topic isnt closed already? Instead of losing time on forums to post and argue go and play in the server.


Be the change you want to see ;)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Solis on April 29, 2014, 11:43:52 pm
So in example, if a cop in pursuit DB on a suspect vehicle which is an Admiral in example, isn't allowed for all cops? Ofc if the suspect/s didn't DB on them?

It isn't allowed for any cop to drive-by if the vehicle is slower than a police cruiser, and even then they must only get the tires. Admiral is about 10 km/h slower, so yeah. As you said, the only cases where it is allowed is when the suspects are shooting back, or if they are being a threat to the lives of officers or civilians.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Que on April 30, 2014, 12:27:51 am
If you are a murderer dont expect cops to take it easy with you
Like 90% gives a shit about your /crime. You get suspected for evading on foot, in car or even only suspected for something even less than that and you still got an army shooting, spraying to 2hp (always this bull), ramming you while getting your chat spammed with "GIVE UPPPPP". All you do is running, lol.

Straighten it up from the very beginning. Don't be so easy on the continual rulebreakers whose goal is to make Argonath a huge shithole of disorganized blue dots.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on April 30, 2014, 01:10:27 am
No bloody offense... But a tutorial to join cop class? what are we? **:** server???
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Petarda on April 30, 2014, 01:12:25 am
No bloody offense... But a tutorial to join cop class? what are we? **:** server???
/h how2cop plise explin
/h guys how2cop
/h how2arrets plise help
/h someone plis
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 30, 2014, 01:54:10 am
None of you answer my question, does a rule or law of SAPD, like the one given in my example, applies for all cops?

Also its an offtopic question, no need to turn it into a topic subject.

For some people; If you don't have anything smart to write, then just constant critics about the topic, and not on its subject, then give us all the break including yourself and stop paying attention on a topic that you don't see the point in. Most of the people see a point, so respect their opinion.

tl;dr wannabe admins and attention whores skip us with your wisdom.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Solis on April 30, 2014, 02:24:17 am
None of you answer my question, does a rule or law of SAPD, like the one given in my example, applies for all cops?

It isn't allowed for any cop
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Brian on April 30, 2014, 02:49:31 am
Like 90% gives a shit about your /crime. You get suspected for evading on foot, in car or even only suspected for something even less than that and you still got an army shooting, spraying to 2hp (always this bull), ramming you while getting your chat spammed with "GIVE UPPPPP". All you do is running, lol.

Straighten it up from the very beginning. Don't be so easy on the continual rulebreakers whose goal is to make Argonath a huge shithole of disorganized blue dots.

The criminals are the one that caused this themselves, when I started playing here and I tried to RP with people when they were a criminal, they RPed
In late RS4 when I tried to RP with a criminal, I got combatted down by his underwear shotgun while typing the RP message.
Both sides are in the wrong, and both sides have to work on this.
Today I had a nice guy RPing. The cop shouted 'hands up' and the criminal complied, he then had to lay on the ground and continued to do so.
Instead of 'STOP WHAT ARE YOU DOING DONT AIM DONT SPRAY OMG COP COP'
Try complying with what the cops say. (And don't moan about being sprayed if you don't)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Brian on April 30, 2014, 02:50:55 am
It isn't allowed for any cop to drive-by if the vehicle is slower than a police cruiser, and even then they must only get the tires. Admiral is about 10 km/h slower, so yeah. As you said, the only cases where it is allowed is when the suspects are shooting back, or if they are being a threat to the lives of officers or civilians.

You are incorrect, there are quite some reasons why a suspect can be drive-byed by the cops
3AM here so not really feeling like naming it all, but for example, if the suspect has already shot towards the cops or has committed murder.
And there is quite some more reasons why a cop can drive-by. (Can all by find by browsing through the ARPD forums, by the way, criminals I suggest you to go through there, theres some really good information that you can use against the cops, like I did back in Sforza)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Janar on April 30, 2014, 11:33:23 am
It isn't allowed for any cop to drive-by if the vehicle is slower than a police cruiser, and even then they must only get the tires. Admiral is about 10 km/h slower, so yeah. As you said, the only cases where it is allowed is when the suspects are shooting back, or if they are being a threat to the lives of officers or civilians.

That is SAPD regulation, that applies to SAPD Probationary Officers and above. SAPD officers can not be enforced to follow this regulation. Nor is this a server rule, which means administration can't take any action on this.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 30, 2014, 04:46:14 pm
My personal experience of today
Got abused by cops 5 times in a day.
1. /su abuse
2. dm
3. wrong /su and 30mins of investigation
4. dm
5. /su abuse

The man in 2,4 is same. He got tempbanned by slavik for dm. Admins are strict.

The man in 1,5 is same. He escaped by /q . Two abuses in a span interval of 10mins got recorded . Will be uploading soon.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 30, 2014, 04:59:46 pm
I disagree with such a horrible statement that criminals never try roleplay as you are forced to /hail or /gu with shower of pepper spray before  cops  engage roleplay with you .
You as an officer should not roam alone to being with on duty,enforce team work and as you speak,make sure partner covers you.

Criminals being sprayed while not running is plain absurd,and that ignorance from cop side when he is trying to talk,but cops keep spaming /s2 and shouting surrender,or spray you to death because that's allowed by constitution is pile of crap,and don't get me wrong,I am officer my self and Cofi well knows it.
So that's an perspective what I get from policing in those four years.
Constitution allows police enforcement use non lethal weapons to force suspect surrender or kill him if he does not complies. However what cops missguide is that standing at one place and not insta /hail is called not complying,while he is actually not moving nor evading therefore complied.
So when ever criminal tries to roleplay,he gets shotdown,literally,so people lose faith in cop performance.
Back in time people got copbanned for spraying a still standing suspect by an command staff.
If something lacks here,it's disciplinary action taken by law enforcement in such situations.

So I do understand Que from criminal and cop perspective,as at the end criminals have two choices,lose armour,health on a road to comply because of full can pepper spray in his face,or attempt to run and die,there is really rarely iniciative from cop side roleplay with suspect till his surrender without bunnyhop and pepper spray,my self seen in it about 5 times from other officers in 4 year policing.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on April 30, 2014, 05:16:37 pm
It highly disappoints me with the fact that i am not being able to play on argonath without getting cop abused many times in a day.
Since the creation of this topic, admins became strict on cop rule breaks
But, is that enough?
We must together collaborate to find a solution like "Prevention is better than cure'
Today i was abused five times, some got punished by admins like Mr.SHAYAN whereas some escaped by /q.
We must seriously find a way that newbies don't join cop duty until they understand server rules.

Example of today's abusing by cops-
It all happened in a small gap of 5-10mins. Am i not allowed to play freely?

ABUSE NO.1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a63HoWjcVuU&feature=youtu.be

Note :- It was wrong suspection. It took me hell lot of time to prove my point until Slavik intervened,

ABUSE NO.2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-ZAc9B5C7Q&feature=youtu.be

Note - He got punished by admin with a tempban of 17mins, Again thanks Slavik and Leon.

ABUSE NO.3

http://youtu.be/8SSYdAF2rP4

Note- He escaped
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on April 30, 2014, 05:19:25 pm
However what cops missguide is that standing at one place and not insta /hail is called not complying,while he is actually not moving nor evading therefore complied.

So you are saying that a suspect that is just standing still is considered as a compliant suspect?
If that the case any suspect evading or shooting after being standing still will be considered as running or attacking after surrending.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on April 30, 2014, 06:41:27 pm
So you are saying that a suspect that is just standing still is considered as a compliant suspect?
If that the case any suspect evading or shooting after being standing still will be considered as running or attacking after surrending.
I believe he's saying when a suspect is surrounded by an army of blue names aiming either a Deagle or a Pepper Spray at the suspect, and he is standing still. I often get sprayed with pepper spray while standing still.

And let me tell you one thing, "/l /gu" is NOT RP. And, correct me if I'm wrong, you can't force someone to /gu.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on April 30, 2014, 06:51:04 pm
In those situations you should look at it from their side, what do you have to lose if you do /gu?
Often players will act like they have surrendered then when the cops are typing they turn around and shoot.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chris_Knight on April 30, 2014, 09:22:36 pm
In those situations you should look at it from their side, what do you have to lose if you do /gu?
Often players will act like they have surrendered then when the cops are typing they turn around and shoot.

To Cyril ,Stivi answered your post perfectly,also read carefully what I say,silly french.

As about Devin. I'm sorry but in LVPD we decided not ask suspect surrender in an /s2 spam or /gu rape,we took cover accordingly and surrounded suspect,gave him opportunity to speak and interact,we demanded to surrender in a proper roleplay manner.
When I see ideology of "you can always surrender first to roleplay after" I wanna hit my head against the brick wall,no offense africo but it's the way it is.  First pages where whole blabling about encouraging rp,and now it's all about wanna roleplay,surrender first,or else get overun by cop army like an buldozer.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on April 30, 2014, 11:56:37 pm
Got abused today, reported it to an admin, he told me I should /gu and investigate, called 911 and asked for higher rank officer, cheers for the lads from FBI for coming down fast, and looking into the case.

Worst part is, the cop is an ex-Gvardia. Oh well.



I just realized something very important!

Consider it a question to HQ:

Unlike rs4, in rs5 there's a thing called CRIMINAL SCORE(correct me if I called it wrong).
Right now any abuser can build my criminal score by suspecting, over and over and over again, and then when I die Im gonna lose like 40k cause of the abusers, how are you guys gonna solve this?
And did anyone even thought about this problem when the criminal score was scripted?

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Doggie on May 01, 2014, 12:02:47 am
 mhove ovah lucifah
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on May 01, 2014, 12:05:12 am
/h how2cop plise explin
/h guys how2cop
/h how2arrets plise help
/h someone plis

Thats the use of /h you are demonstrating. Well done !
Useless tutorial if you ask me :-)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 01, 2014, 12:48:00 am
Apart from people being annoying whilst playing the game for the reason people play a game, to have fun.
What's the reason for this and what is the proposed solution to this "problem"?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 01, 2014, 07:42:55 am
you might as well wipe that arrogance gained through asslicking everyone in power out of your eyes so you can finally see.

:rofl:

Another sadly misinformed individual. Funny of you to claim that people like you are the truly loyal players, when not so long ago you were parroting things such as "And I'm nothing but truthful saying that SA:MP is dead." (which I got from our Skype, just so you can't say I'm putting words into your mouth) when the going got tough.

I won't elaborate on my long story, but on the way up (and even at the top), I had plenty of disagreements with my peers and superiors. Because I told them whatever was on my mind without any sugarcoating, the same way I am telling you now. Yet I succeeded in my posts because I actually gave what those jobs required, not because I tried to harness "public sentiment" and ride the bandwagon in a sad attempt to look powerful.

You see, in order to fix something, you must fix it to the point where everybody would be satisfied, which means you must listen to the players.

Clearly, you live in fantasy, and have no idea of how the real world works.

Come back when you've changed that, then the administration and sensible veterans may actually take you seriously. For now, there is nothing to gain from further discussion with you, someone who thrives on empty rhethoric and personal attacks, rather than objective facts.



No bloody offense... But a tutorial to join cop class? what are we? **:** server???

Blame all the "cool" veterans who think they are so "cool" that they have no time to teach new players how to become cops. If that wasn't bad enough, you'd see these trains of thought from them too:

"oh, aren't there enough cops already anyway?"
"I shouldn't be forced to help new players, that's something for admins"
"It's irritating to see help chat when I'm trying to focus on my own little world in roleplay, f**k those people asking for help"


After, they only further discriminate on and blame those new players when they rulebreak because none of the older players gave a f**k when they were trying to learn the rules and ropes. Unfortunately, the reason we've needed this a script is quality control, just to make sure that helping new cops didn't shrivel up into nothingness because there weren't enough who were willing.

People have no right to f**king complain about new players if they themselves turned a blind eye when those new players were asking for help. Many new players lack knowledge of the rules because of "veterans" who didn't give a f**k about informing them, focusing instead on themselves.

P.S: At the end of this quote, I realize you are misinformed; the scirpt is not a "tutorial", but a test; that a new player cannot become a cop unless they know some very basic facts about Argonath, as well as how to drive/shoot half-decently.



Got abused today, reported it to an admin, he told me I should /gu and investigate, called 911 and asked for higher rank officer, cheers for the lads from FBI for coming down fast, and looking into the case.

I hope this was enough proof for you that Admins and ARPD actually have a set way of dealing with cop violators for this-and-that.

Consider it a question to HQ:

Unlike rs4, in rs5 there's a thing called CRIMINAL SCORE(correct me if I called it wrong).
Right now any abuser can build my criminal score by suspecting, over and over and over again, and then when I die Im gonna lose like 40k cause of the abusers, how are you guys gonna solve this?
And did anyone even thought about this problem when the criminal score was scripted?

The purpose of criminal score is to keep track of those who are fond of getting wanted all the time, and to impose some losses on them. We all know that cop vs. criminal shootouts were among our biggest complaints/headaches in RS4.

But that is a good question. An admin command to remove criminal score (along with guidelines for its usage, like our other tools) would help.

As for the points about the economy, once again, the other jobs should get a raise / better salary opportunities. People flock to cop and fireman jobs because of the simple reward-vs.-effort rule of thumb.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 01, 2014, 08:25:06 am
No need for an admin command. You can just ask a cop to jail you.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on May 01, 2014, 08:49:00 am
Another sadly misinformed individual. Funny of you to claim that people like you are the truly loyal players, when not so long ago you were parroting things such as "And I'm nothing but truthful saying that SA:MP is dead." (which I got from our Skype, just so you can't say I'm putting words into your mouth) when the going got tough.
I won't deny I said that and I'll stand by what I said. At the time, SA:MP really was dead, and only now it's starting to stand up on its' feet, and I'm glad for that.

I won't elaborate on my long story, but on the way up (and even at the top), I had plenty of disagreements with my peers and superiors. Because I told them whatever was on my mind without any sugarcoating, the same way I am telling you now. Yet I succeeded in my posts because I actually gave what those jobs required, not because I tried to harness "public sentiment" and ride the bandwagon in a sad attempt to look powerful.
If being successful is grabbing one hundred positions you do not have the activity to handle is what you call successful, than you might want to rethink that. Yes, we all still remember your VC:MP story. A FBI director who could barely show up in game for two-three months, mostly not even letting his comrades know where the hell he is. Out of curiosity i'd always check your /c lastlogin and it would always be more than two months. And yet you say that you were capable of handling your positions all over the community. Freaking pathetic  :app:
Come back when you've changed that, then the administration and sensible veterans may actually take you seriously.
I already told you: you are no longer taken seriously by actual sensible veterans long ago. It's funny how you speak for those people when in reality most of them think of you as a pathetic and desperate person who's trying to re-gain his long lost fame by trying to bash people's opinions by writing books and using words in contexts that usually don't even make sense.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 01, 2014, 09:10:42 am
Apart from people being annoying whilst playing the game for the reason people play a game, to have fun.
What's the reason for this and what is the proposed solution to this "problem"?

Let me explain a major reason for cop abusing by newbies-

1. Majority are Cops and robbers server and many newbies come from there
The only thing they do there is suspect and kill for money

2. Referring to regular players
[a] They have personal grudge against few players
Are low on money or are in too delightful mood to do it

Possible Suggestions

1. Time Interval-
Keep a time interval between usage of /su by cops. As there are many cops for now, it must not be a problem for collaborating cops

2.Reset Criminal Score
Once a man gets unsuspected , please remove the criminal score he gets due to wrong suspection.

For DMing cops, i hope admins can look after that
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 01, 2014, 12:37:19 pm
If being successful is grabbing one hundred positions you do not have the activity to handle is what you call successful, than you might want to rethink that. Yes, we all still remember your VC:MP story. A FBI director who could barely show up in game for two-three months, mostly not even letting his comrades know where the hell he is. Out of curiosity i'd always check your /c lastlogin and it would always be more than two months. And yet you say that you were capable of handling your positions all over the community. Freaking pathetic 

And who the fuck are you exactly to comment on another's activity or lack of within Argonath whilst you are one of the many that said "SAMP is dead" and didn't contribute a god damn thing whilst we were trying to do all we could to please the players?
Sure JDC may have held and currently holds multiple positions, what's the problem?
As long as someone that holds a position is able to be productive enough when active to keep the position I see no problem so what's your problem?

You try to call yourself a true veteran whilst you disrespect those that contribute to the community is not "Freaking pathetic" as you put it but fucking childish.
Get off your high horse and stop trying to act as if you may run around here disrespecting those that have done what they can to help the community before you find the door closed in your face.

It's time for some to stop being arrogant little shits and to start being productive whilst being respectful towards other users.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 01, 2014, 01:10:19 pm
If being successful is grabbing one hundred positions you do not have the activity to handle is what you call successful, than you might want to rethink that. Yes, we all still remember your VC:MP story. A FBI director who could barely show up in game for two-three months, mostly not even letting his comrades know where the hell he is. Out of curiosity i'd always check your /c lastlogin and it would always be more than two months. And yet you say that you were capable of handling your positions all over the community. Freaking pathetic  :app:

Were you in the FBI? Did you have access to the systems and cases I was maintaining on the forum and the progress I was creating away from the public eyes? Did you read my private communications with Legend and my agents? The answer would be no, as you could not make it into FBI, or even stay in the VCPD, because we had to fire you for acting too immaturely. Something you obviously did not outgrow until now.

I advice you further refrain from discussing our resumes, before I embarrass you and further expose your lack of knowledge.

I already told you: you are no longer taken seriously by actual sensible veterans long ago. It's funny how you speak for those people when in reality most of them think of you as a pathetic and desperate person who's trying to re-gain his long lost fame by trying to bash people's opinions by writing books and using words in contexts that usually don't even make sense.  :rofl:

I would have included a caveman translation of my posts for you and your kind, but I don't see it as worth the effort.

But I've had my fun for this post. The problem with you, and some other problem players, is that you don't bother to find out what the real facts are before pointing at the helpers and switching your allegiance to suit the situation. Who's asslicking now.

At this point, none of you have the right to complain about staff being so defensive. Why? For the exact same reason why we do not give a f**k about the opinions of moaners anymore, focusing only on players who are loyal to this community and who bother to know the effort put in to keep it alive, even if we disagree with them at times (like I disagree with Cofiliano now and then). Admins are humans too; be nice and civil, and we'll be more than happy to help you. Shit on us and everything that we hold dear, and we'll just as easily show you the door.

Those who elevate themselves by talking bullshit about those who actually contribute to this community do not deserve to stay around here for long.

And as for the topic of cops, yes I am in favor of longer (perhaps even indefinite, like /ban) copban for regulars who abuse duty. From both Admins and ARPD.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Huntsman on May 01, 2014, 01:20:57 pm
And who the f**k are you exactly to comment on another's activity or lack of within Argonath whilst you are one of the many that said "SAMP is dead" and didn't contribute a god damn thing whilst we were trying to do all we could to please the players?
Sure JDC may have held and currently holds multiple positions, what's the problem?
As long as someone that holds a position is able to be productive enough when active to keep the position I see no problem so what's your problem?

You try to call yourself a true veteran whilst you disrespect those that contribute to the community is not "Freaking pathetic" as you put it but f**king childish.
Get off your high horse and stop trying to act as if you may run around here disrespecting those that have done what they can to help the community before you find the door closed in your face.

It's time for some to stop being arrogant little shits and to start being productive whilst being respectful towards other users.

Chill, he wants to bring it personal, I bring it up personal. He knows what I'm talking about. The only problem I have with anyone here is JDC, and I refuse to aknowledge he has ever done anything to this community.

Were you in the FBI? Did you have access to the systems and cases I was maintaining on the forum and the progress I was creating away from the public eyes? Did you read my private communications with Legend and my agents? The answer would be no, as you could not make it into FBI, or even stay in the VCPD, because we had to fire you for acting too immaturely. Something you obviously did not outgrow until now.

I advice you further refrain from discussing our resumes, before I embarrass you and further expose your lack of knowledge.

I would have included a caveman translation of my posts for you and your kind, but I don't see it as worth the effort.

But I've had my fun for this post. The problem with you, and some other problem players, is that you don't bother to find out what the real facts are before pointing at the helpers and switching your allegiance to suit the situation. Who's asslicking now.

At this point, none of you have the right to complain about staff being so defensive. Why? For the exact same reason why we do not give a f**k about the opinions of moaners anymore, focusing only on players who are loyal to this community and who bother to know the effort put in to keep it alive.

Those who elevate themselves by talking bullshit about those who actually contribute to this community do not deserve to stay around here for long.

And as for the topic of cops, yes I am in favor of longer (perhaps even indefinite, like /ban) copban for regulars who abuse duty.
I was fired because I disagreed with your attempts to a be a dictator and get your inability to manage your agency to bright day light. I've done no misconduct during my duties apart from defending myself at the point where you started publicly offending me in VCPD boards. I wish I still had the screenshot of that pretty post of yours.

Quote
as you could not make it into FBI
Funny how you said that, when before we had that argument you were considering giving me a chance in VCPD-FBI over the /c phone  :lol: And even if I was offered to join I would have rejected the offer, because before I've got promoted to officer I've told Legend that I have no desire to get invited into the FBI as I wish to contribute to VCPD itself.

Quote
I would have included a caveman translation of my posts for you and your kind, but I don't see it as worth the effort.
You do realise speaking in phrases you most likely probably don't even understand yourself does not make you any smarter than me or anyone else in this community? And I really do not see how writing political-philosophical speeches for a video-gaming community where most of the players are no older than 15-16 years old is a great achievment. Wow, I'd give you a cookie if I had one.

Quote
And as for the topic of cops, yes I am in favor of longer (perhaps even indefinite, like /ban) copban for regulars who abuse duty.
Finally somethign we can agree on.

Anyways, let's get back to the topic, and my problem here is that the server administration refuses to aknowledge that police officers receive way lighter punishments for the same violations which civilians do.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 01, 2014, 01:36:41 pm
Chill, he wants to bring it personal, I bring it up personal. He knows what I'm talking about. The only problem I have with anyone here is JDC, and I refuse to aknowledge he has ever done anything to this community.

More lies, I see.

(http://i62.tinypic.com/s2z1up.jpg)

You claim that your only problem is with me, when you have clearly been shitting on admins by claiming that they are blind to the community's needs and do not care about the players, someting that made it personal not only for me, but for other staff members too. The only thing that is clear is that you aren't fooling anyone.

Aside from admitting to willingly flaming for petty reasons, you clearly insist on keeping up your shit attitude even if told that you may be assisted in leaving. Continue and you just might find that happening sooner than expected.

Start telling the truth, it may suit you better. Fact is that admins have been responsive to good suggestions from the players and work at enforcing the rules, and to say otherwise is bullshit.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 01, 2014, 02:08:46 pm
police officers receive way lighter punishments for the same violations which civilians do.

It's a bit easy to say without anything to back up your words.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 01, 2014, 02:42:58 pm
Two users muted for their inability to abide by forum rules. Anyone else decides to follow their route will be removed in the same manner.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on May 01, 2014, 10:40:31 pm
Two users muted for their inability to abide by forum rules. Anyone else decides to follow their route will be removed in the same manner.
Alleluja!, these days every thread becomes a place for personal arguments and stuff like that
.
Back on topic-
Let me explain a major reason for cop abusing by newbies-

1. Majority are Cops and robbers server and many newbies come from there
The only thing they do there is suspect and kill for money

2. Referring to regular players
[a] They have personal grudge against few players
Are low on money or are in too delightful mood to do it

Possible Suggestions

1. Time Interval-
Keep a time interval between usage of /su by cops. As there are many cops for now, it must not be a problem for collaborating cops

2.Reset Criminal Score
Once a man gets unsuspected , please remove the criminal score he gets due to wrong suspection.

For DMing cops, i hope admins can look after that
1.If there are multiple suspect we will need multiple cops to suspect each guy + unexperienced cop + no reinforcements + wrong juristiction= Good Luck, finding a cop that fits all the requirments and the criminal already got away with it...
2. Agree completely, my criminal score has been highered before the time (feds hehehehehe) for that D:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on May 02, 2014, 12:24:41 am
No need for an admin command. You can just ask a cop to jail you.
And why does a innocent person, victim of an abuse, who didn't break any law or rule, except being abused by some rule breaker has to get jailed?

How about we jail the abusive cop, and then when he does get jailed, the criminal score he raised by abusing /sus gets erased.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on May 02, 2014, 12:28:20 am
Apart from people being annoying whilst playing the game for the reason people play a game, to have fun.
What's the reason for this and what is the proposed solution to this "problem"?
1.Raise the punishment for copban to a 1 week-1month for a veteran cop.
2.After getting 2 cop bans in a row, the 3rd time is a full ban.

Place this, and problem solved.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Rusty on May 02, 2014, 01:04:31 am
1.Raise the punishment for copban to a 1 week-1month for a veteran cop.
2.After getting 2 cop bans in a row, the 3rd time is a full ban.

Place this, and problem solved.

You can't copban for a month straight (unless the limit was raised), you'd have to wait the maximum time which am very sure is a week then ban them again.  There's no guarantee you'd be able to keep issuing the copban over the course of a month as people would find a way to avoid it.  Not to mention the copban command isn't working as it should.

If it's a cop with a rank Senior Officer or higher who commits such acts then I would urge you to also send their wrongdoings to the ARPD Forum.  It may lead to them being suspended from duty (copbanned) or most likely fired from SAPD completely (copbanned and removed from SAPD group).
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 02, 2014, 09:37:15 am
Alleluja!, these days every thread becomes a place for personal arguments and stuff like that
.
Back on topic-1.If there are multiple suspect we will need multiple cops to suspect each guy + unexperienced cop + no reinforcements + wrong juristiction= Good Luck, finding a cop that fits all the requirments and the criminal already got away with it...

There is something called teamwork a cop must follow, they get paid for that not for abusing.
Inexperienced cops need to wait for backup that happens IRL too. No reinforcements is a badluck on both cop and criminal side. If a criminal gets away because of non coordination of cops, its neither a script mistake nor criminal 's mistake
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 09:43:36 am
There is something called teamwork a cop must follow, they get paid for that not for abusing.
Inexperienced cops need to wait for backup that happens IRL too. No reinforcements is a badluck on both cop and criminal side. If a criminal gets away because of non coordination of cops, its neither a script mistake nor criminal 's mistake

You can't expect the 1160 members of SAPD group to perfectly cooperate 24/7. It's completly unrealistic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 02, 2014, 10:01:51 am
You can't expect the 1160 members of SAPD group to perfectly cooperate 24/7. It's completly unrealistic.
How is it unrealistic ? Do you think cops in real life just go around killing "bad dudes" ? In real life, the "criminal" is a suspect, and innocent, until found guilty.

In Argonath, even though we got laws for it, we're guilty because some random cop, that works as a fireman most of the time, was told in PM that I made a kidnap. Then they /su for "attempted 211".
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 10:11:45 am
How is it unrealistic ? Do you think cops in real life just go around killing "bad dudes" ? In real life, the "criminal" is a suspect, and innocent, until found guilty.

In Argonath, even though we got laws for it, we're guilty because some random cop, that works as a fireman most of the time, was told in PM that I made a kidnap. Then they /su for "attempted 211".

In real life people don't go around armed, shooting and aiming at people nor they drive like they are in a video game ignoring all trafic laws. IRL when a cop ask someone to do something, the person either comply or he is arrested by force. IRL, suspect also don't go around saying they have been abused or saying they haven't done anything wrong. They are taken to the PD and cops will investigate there.

So please  don't start talking about real life.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 02, 2014, 10:56:55 am
You can't expect the 1160 members of SAPD group to perfectly cooperate 24/7. It's completly unrealistic.

You proved it,
Nothing can be expected from a group supporting a bunch of cop abusers.
A person must be able to join SAPD only if he has a passport.
I hope it's "Realistic".

No one is made to join cop duty without training, you guys just take a driving test and a theory test as though as stating whether a man is
[a] Male
b) Female
[c] None of the above

Once you fail a test, you know you can reapply in the next second choosing different answers from MCQs.
This is "Unrealistic".
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 11:00:28 am
It's not because few individuals might be abusing their powers that it gives you the right to disrespect a whole group.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 02, 2014, 11:02:06 am
It's not because few individuals might be abusing their powers that it gives you the right to disrespect a whole group.

As topic says, enough is enough.
Newbies from other servers must not be able to join SAPD as soon as they arrive without passports and with a test which a class 1 child can succeed in.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 11:06:26 am
That's not up to you to decide what new players are able to do or not.
Most of rulebreak don't come from new players but from veterans.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 02, 2014, 11:10:55 am
In real life people don't go around armed, shooting and aiming at people nor they drive like they are in a video game ignoring all trafic laws. IRL when a cop ask someone to do something, the person either comply or he is arrested by force. IRL, suspect also don't go around saying they have been abused or saying they haven't done anything wrong. They are taken to the PD and cops will investigate there.

So please  don't start talking about real life.
People shoot each-other in real life, but they don't get orange when they do, so they don't get killed so fast, with a cop saying he shot the criminal because he was a murdered, I know he had a gun!!!!!!!one1eleven11!! In Argonath, cops investigate without evidence, tyvm. Go UC, speed the fk out of a admiral/premier/some car that cops think it's slow, request an investigation not from admin or Senior Officer+, request it from a new guy. Then come here and post results.

You started talking about unrealistic things, no ?



That's not up to you to decide what new players are able to do or not.
Most of rulebreak don't come from new players but from veterans.
Then shouldn't get away with nothing, don't you think so ?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 11:14:07 am
Then shouldn't get away with nothing, don't you think so ?

They don't. But you can't talk about it as you don't see what's going on behind the scene.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 02, 2014, 11:18:19 am
That's not up to you to decide what new players are able to do or not.
Most of rulebreak don't come from new players but from veterans.

Its up to us, as we are being bothered by them being on cop duty. They don't know RP rules.They just /area , reach there , Shoot or take us to jail without a word except from /m123
I provided three videos as a proof, out of three, 2 were new comers.

So stop telling things that most rulebreaks aren't from newbies. Most times they are pardoned with a verbal warning so you can't see their punishment history.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on May 02, 2014, 11:21:28 am
As topic says, enough is enough.
Newbies from other servers must not be able to join SAPD as soon as they arrive without passports and with a test which a class 1 child can succeed in.

Bullshit.

The biggest ammount of people abusing stuffs like copduty is the veterans. If you see a new guys abusing? Help him instead of moaning on him.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 11:24:57 am
Its up to us, as we are being bothered by them being on cop duty. They don't know RP rules.They just /area , reach there , Shoot or take us to jail without a word except from /m123
I provided three videos as a proof, out of three, 2 were new comers.

So stop telling things that most rulebreaks aren't from newbies. Most times they are pardoned with a verbal warning so you can't see their punishment history.


How many times have you helped a new player since RS5?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 02, 2014, 11:39:51 am
How many times have you helped a new player since RS5?

Many, i don't maintain a record for my goodness.

Please, come back on topic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Orel on May 02, 2014, 11:45:22 am
How about don't give money when you kill/jail a suspect, make it like real life, paycheck according to your rank/activity as a cop every week or so and this problem should be solved.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 11:51:41 am
How about don't give money when you kill/jail a suspect, make it like real life, paycheck according to your rank/activity as a cop every week or so and this problem should be solved.

How do you measure activity ?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 02, 2014, 11:58:17 am
How do you measure activity ?
Activity IG, as a cop ?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 02, 2014, 12:32:08 pm
Activity IG, as a cop ?

AFKfest. No one will be given money for sitting around in-game on duty.
You want money? Then work for it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 02, 2014, 12:41:03 pm
AFKfest. No one will be given money for sitting around in-game on duty.
You want money? Then work for it.
Isn't there anti-AFK support ? :D I mean, you get that clock thingy when you're AFK, if you ahve that, activity doesn't raise.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 02, 2014, 01:04:25 pm
Isn't there anti-AFK support ? :D I mean, you get that clock thingy when you're AFK, if you ahve that, activity doesn't raise.

And then we have people sitting around without pausing, no salary for sitting around.
Police are paid for the work they do, not how long they sit around on duty.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 02, 2014, 01:05:34 pm
Da fuk, i just logged into the server and a cop comes and /su me for suspicious gang activity and starts shooting.

Please any admin hop in. He is abusing many players
ID - Jackling jobalinghar.
A UC admin would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Orel on May 02, 2014, 01:58:26 pm
And then we have people sitting around without pausing, no salary for sitting around.
Police are paid for the work they do, not how long they sit around on duty.
There will always be advantages and disadvantages but there are more positive things in this idea then negative ones.
As for now we have most of the time 40 players with 25 cops, which leaves us with 10 firemen and 2 civilian/suspect and 3 afks and it's very boring, with this idea I am sure there will be less cops if you put a fair paycheck. also there will be less abuse and more RP as people won't be looking only for killing the suspects.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 02, 2014, 02:05:50 pm
We don't want to pay people for doing nothing.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 02, 2014, 02:20:24 pm
As topic says, enough is enough.
Newbies from other servers must not be able to join SAPD as soon as they arrive without passports and with a test which a class 1 child can succeed in.

5 years of admin experience calls bullshit on your claims against new players. As Emmet said, our worst headaches come from "veterans", not newbies.

A new player who abuses does not know about the rules in most cases, or how things work. They are still easy to correct, most of them will react nicely if you show them that you will treat them like people, and those who refuse to learn will not last long on the server before an admin gets in their way.

A "veteran" who abuses, on the other hand, already knows how things work, yet still chooses to treat other players like shit. They cannot claim ignorance of our rules, therefore their punishment will be greater. As they know more, more will also be expected from them. Troublesome players from this category are the real problem.

Do not ever try and pin the blame for the problem underlying this topic on new players, because anyone with at least half a brain who has stuck around will know that they are not to blame. If we treated new players with the same elitist and closed-minded view as yours, then most of you will not be here today.



There will always be advantages and disadvantages but there are more positive things in this idea then negative ones.
As for now we have most of the time 40 players with 25 cops, which leaves us with 10 firemen and 2 civilian/suspect and 3 afks and it's very boring, with this idea I am sure there will be less cops if you put a fair paycheck. also there will be less abuse and more RP as people won't be looking only for killing the suspects.

The problem with your approach, like that of many others here, is that it is mediocre. You attack what "has" instead of bringing up "what does not have". Why not give all jobs the opportunity to be as financially sustainable as cop and fireman instead?

Players flock to Cop and Fireman duty because they know they can be rewarded adequately. Instead of trying to nerf those jobs because they actually provide something, focus on enhancing the other jobs that "lack", so that the average overall quality of jobs goes higher, rather than lower.

If you still can't understand that, then here's an (MS Paint) graph example.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/153351c.jpg)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on May 02, 2014, 02:55:25 pm
In real life people don't go around armed, shooting and aiming at people nor they drive like they are in a video game ignoring all trafic laws.
Actually they do.


 IRL when a cop ask someone to do something, the person either comply or he is arrested by force. IRL, suspect also don't go around saying they have been abused or saying they haven't done anything wrong. They are taken to the PD and cops will investigate there.
Ever heard of 'ACAB'? Pls people moan about police everyday.

And cops doesn't investigate anything, the Justices Department does, in most countries in the world.
[n]

And I would really like you to answer on my question:

And why does a innocent person, victim of an abuse, who didn't break any law or rule, except being abused by some rule breaker has to get jailed?

How about we jail the abusive cop, and then when he does get jailed, the criminal score he raised by abusing /sus gets erased.

@Rusty, what I wrote in my suggest is to raise the limit for cop ban, I know atm  1 month is probably not scripted.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Solis on May 02, 2014, 04:13:15 pm
You can't expect the 1160 members of SAPD group to perfectly cooperate 24/7. It's completly unrealistic.

The police departments of major cities across the first world, air traffic control, and even law enforcement agencies on other RP servers have been doing this just fine for years. So I wouldn't say it's unrealistic.

In real life people don't go around armed, shooting and aiming at people nor they drive like they are in a video game ignoring all trafic laws.

They do, or at least in countries like Mexico, that's comparable to Argonath not only in how unorganized and broken everything is, but in the firepower that criminals have. Violation of traffic laws also happens all the time.

IRL when a cop ask someone to do something, the person either comply or he is arrested by force.

People actually aren't lawfully obliged to do a lot of things that officers would ask, like answering questions, taking sobriety tests, pat-downs, vehicle searches, stopping recording them, letting them into their house without a warrant, etc. At least that's how it works in the United States.

IRL, suspect also don't go around saying they have been abused or saying they haven't done anything wrong. They are taken to the PD and cops will investigate there.

It's done quite a lot in fact, there are multiple YouTube videos about it. Such matters mostly happen inside courts, not police departments.

And cops doesn't investigate anything, the Justices Department does, in most countries in the world.

I guess you're referring to the judicial branch. The justice department enforces laws and prosecutes criminals.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Orel on May 02, 2014, 04:39:30 pm
5 years of admin experience calls bullshit on your claims against new players. As Emmet said, our worst headaches come from "veterans", not newbies.

A new player who abuses does not know about the rules in most cases, or how things work. They are still easy to correct, most of them will react nicely if you show them that you will treat them like people, and those who refuse to learn will not last long on the server before an admin gets in their way.

A "veteran" who abuses, on the other hand, already knows how things work, yet still chooses to treat other players like shit. They cannot claim ignorance of our rules, therefore their punishment will be greater. As they know more, more will also be expected from them. Troublesome players from this category are the real problem.

Do not ever try and pin the blame for the problem underlying this topic on new players, because anyone with at least half a brain who has stuck around will know that they are not to blame. If we treated new players with the same elitist and closed-minded view as yours, then most of you will not be here today.



The problem with your approach, like that of many others here, is that it is mediocre. You attack what "has" instead of bringing up "what does not have". Why not give all jobs the opportunity to be as financially sustainable as cop and fireman instead?

Players flock to Cop and Fireman duty because they know they can be rewarded adequately. Instead of trying to nerf those jobs because they actually provide something, focus on enhancing the other jobs that "lack", so that the average overall quality of jobs goes higher, rather than lower.

If you still can't understand that, then here's an (MS Paint) graph example.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/153351c.jpg)
People don't go on the rest of the duties beacuse they are boring. why would someone want to be a medic when there is a store where you can refill HP? why would anyone want to be a driver when people don't want to spend thier money so they prefer running to a state car?
firemen and cop duties are the ones with most action and most $$, thats why people choose to go on these duties.
What I suggested was actually going to lower the cops on the server, not make more people go on cop duty.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 02, 2014, 04:43:56 pm
People don't go on the rest of the duties beacuse they are boring. why would someone want to be a medic when there is a store where you can refill HP? why would anyone want to be a driver when people don't want to spend thier money so they prefer running to a state car?
firemen and cop duties are the ones with most action and most $$, thats why people choose to go on these duties.
What I suggested was actually going to lower the cops on the server, not make more people go on cop duty.

That's exactly the whole point of finding ways to make the other duties better.

Once that is done, not only will all duties give substantial opportunities for earning, but you'll also have the side benefit of solving the problem of too many players gravitating towards cop / fireman duty. You won't have a huge disproportion because players will already be interested in the other duties too.

In the end, that gives you more benefit than just making sure that not too many players go on duty as cop.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on May 02, 2014, 10:17:54 pm
5 years of admin experience calls bullshit on your claims against new players. As Emmet said, our worst headaches come from "veterans", not newbies.

A new player who abuses does not know about the rules in most cases, or how things work. They are still easy to correct, most of them will react nicely if you show them that you will treat them like people, and those who refuse to learn will not last long on the server before an admin gets in their way.

A "veteran" who abuses, on the other hand, already knows how things work, yet still chooses to treat other players like shit. They cannot claim ignorance of our rules, therefore their punishment will be greater. As they know more, more will also be expected from them. Troublesome players from this category are the real problem.

Do not ever try and pin the blame for the problem underlying this topic on new players, because anyone with at least half a brain who has stuck around will know that they are not to blame. If we treated new players with the same elitist and closed-minded view as yours, then most of you will not be here today.



The problem with your approach, like that of many others here, is that it is mediocre. You attack what "has" instead of bringing up "what does not have". Why not give all jobs the opportunity to be as financially sustainable as cop and fireman instead?

Players flock to Cop and Fireman duty because they know they can be rewarded adequately. Instead of trying to nerf those jobs because they actually provide something, focus on enhancing the other jobs that "lack", so that the average overall quality of jobs goes higher, rather than lower.

If you still can't understand that, then here's an (MS Paint) graph example.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/153351c.jpg)
Really? You gotta be kidding me, where in hell do you find all the time to write those books plus graphics? Tell me your secret JDC, i really wanna know.
@Rusty, what I wrote in my suggest is to raise the limit for cop ban, I know atm  1 month is probably not scripted.
No god, please no, if that happens ill end up playing once 2 months
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 03, 2014, 11:44:14 am
Quote from: JDC link=topic=105342.msg1677462#msg1677462 date=1399033224

If you still can't understand that, then here's an (MS Paint) graph example.

[img width=551 height=800
http://i61.tinypic.com/153351c.jpg[/img]

False Graphs.

Cop duty rewards are much less compared to fireman rewards
And "Others" Like Drugs must be raised.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 03, 2014, 12:09:15 pm
False Graphs.

Cop duty rewards are much less compared to fireman rewards
And "Others" Like Drugs must be raised.

It was an example, not meant to be numerically accurate in terms of raw money earned. I put more at "Cop" since many more players tend to gravitate towards Cop duty (over Fireman duty, the situation reversed from what it was at the start of RS5) than anything else.

Really? You gotta be kidding me, where in hell do you find all the time to write those books plus graphics? Tell me your secret JDC, i really wanna know.

That infographic was something I hastily put together in MS Paint, rather than real graph-making software like Photoshop or Excel. As I mentioned before, Argonath is something I attend to in my spare time (after work, university, and social obligations). It just so happens I can squeeze a lot into a short amount of time.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 03, 2014, 12:57:20 pm
I don't know that what talk is going on but I'd like to say that the COP script really needs to be changed.

My suggestion is that, first of all the newcommers (newbie) should not be able to join the police duty. Somewhat like, for example; There's is a new player ingame, he needs to be apart SAPD. He went into the PD, and gets on the duty mark. A message appears that, "You need to play atleat 1/2 Weeks to join police duty.". This would really help to decrease the DM'ing occured by the newcommer(s).

However, I'll come to the COPBAN system. If a cop is caught DM'ing around, misusing his firearms and he's get a copban for 1DAY or 2DAYs or maybe 3DAYs. 1-3 days of copban changes nothing. For example;

*A cop DM'es a player(s).
*The player(s) reported him to the admins.
*Got copbanned to 1/2/3 day(s).
*1/2/3 day(s) went away, he's now able to join the duty again.
*Started to DM the players again.

So, nothing is changing with this short time period of copban.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on May 03, 2014, 01:13:23 pm
My suggestion is that, first of all the newcommers (newbie) should not be able to join the police duty. Somewhat like, for example; There's is a new player ingame, he needs to be apart SAPD. He went into the PD, and gets on the duty mark. A message appears that, "You need to play atleat 1/2 Weeks to join police duty.". This would really help to decrease the DM'ing occured by the newcommer(s).

Bullshit.

The biggest ammount of people abusing stuffs like copduty is the veterans. If you see a new guys abusing? Help him instead of moaning on him.

When are you all going to learn this?^

A new player breaks a rule because he doesn't know what he's doing wrong. A veteran breaks a rule (copduty etc) just to be a fucking moron.
Stop blaming everything on the new players.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 03, 2014, 01:23:01 pm
When are you all going to learn this?^

A new player breaks a rule because he doesn't know what he's doing wrong. A veteran breaks a rule (copduty etc) just to be a f**king moron.
Stop blaming everything on the new players.

Yes, for sure I'm blaming the newbie in what I said. However, my point is that the newcommers shall not be allowed to join the copduty, other then that I don't have any problem from the newcommers. As he server management states that the rules apply for all. No one is allowed to break rules, if he's admin/mod in the server.

Don't take it as moaning which it said in my last post.  I just suggest that the newcommers should not be able to join the cop duty until they know the job totally, that how it works. Then simply no one would moan a newcommer.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 03, 2014, 01:24:24 pm
New players will always be allowed to join cop duty if they wish.
No point to argue about it, it's not going to change.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 03, 2014, 01:48:21 pm
New players will always be allowed to join cop duty if they wish.
No point to argue about it, it's not going to change.

I never forced you guys to use this. I just suggested an idea, nothing more.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 03, 2014, 01:56:00 pm
New players will always be allowed to join cop duty if they wish.
No point to argue about it, it's not going to change.

Atleast a wait for their passports and driving license would be appreciated as it is in MTA.
Could you explain why that cannot be changed?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: TiMoN on May 03, 2014, 02:22:32 pm
Atleast a wait for their passports and driving license would be appreciated as it is in MTA.
Could you explain why that cannot be changed?
It still doesn't change much. I have seen more trolls with passports than newbies who just joined.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CharlieKasper on May 03, 2014, 02:48:30 pm
Da fuk, i just logged into the server and a cop comes and /su me for suspicious gang activity and starts shooting.

Please any admin hop in. He is abusing many players
ID - Jackling jobalinghar.
A UC admin would be appreciated.
When no admins are online, you record or take pictures and send it to [email protected]. Admins (or even UC admin, who may not be always available) can't act on some rulebreak unless they have seen it.

I just suggest that the newcommers should not be able to join the cop duty until they know the job totally, that how it works. Then simply no one would moan a newcommer.
New players are what make up Argonath. How is a new player going to have enough experience of something without even being allowed to experience the something? Your logic doesn't make sense.

Atleast a wait for their passports and driving license would be appreciated as it is in MTA.
Could you explain why that cannot be changed?
Because MTA is different? The SA:MP community is very different than MTA community (talking about the game community in general not Argonath). You can't compare MTA SA with SA:MP until SA:MP's scripting capability is close to MTA or until MTA's playerbase is close to SA:MP. A player who has just recieved his passport and license would still be a newbie cop when he/she joins the police duty for the first time. Even if they have seen other cops doing how it should be done, they have no fucking idea of how it all works. They just do it how they want.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 03, 2014, 03:13:03 pm
A player who has just recieved his passport and license would still be a newbie cop when he/she joins the police duty for the first time. Even if they have seen other cops doing how it should be done, they have no f**king idea of how it all works. They just do it how they want.

Agree with you Charlie but,
Given a passport, till then he will know
1. What is argonath
2. How we interact
3. What are basic server rules
4. Not to DM anyone

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 03, 2014, 03:14:38 pm
Agree with you Charlie but,
Given a passport, till then he will know

3. What are basic server rules
4. Not to DM anyone

Well, you have a passport and know the basic rules, yet you have been punished few times for deathmatching and other rulebreak...
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 03, 2014, 03:21:22 pm
Well, you have a passport and know the basic rules, yet you have been punished few times for deathmatching and other rulebreak...

Aww.... Yes.

But much of the direct DM cases come from those not having passports.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on May 03, 2014, 03:38:20 pm
But much of the direct DM cases come from those not having passports.

False.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: ClazzyJogel on May 03, 2014, 03:38:58 pm
New players will always be allowed to join cop duty if they wish.
No point to argue about it, it's not going to change.

This is what made me stay in Argonath for my first months, and this is what makes us unique.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 03, 2014, 05:10:09 pm
Aww.... Yes.

But much of the direct DM cases come from those not having passports.

False, the worst problems (including the worst copbaiters) come from those who already know enough about the server and the rules.

You are one good example, highlighted by that copbait rampage of yours with your friends earlier.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 03, 2014, 05:40:13 pm
False, the worst problems (including the worst copbaiters) come from those who already know enough about the server and the rules.

You are one good example, highlighted by that copbait rampage of yours with your friends earlier.

Copbait rampage? Oh really? It wasn't even a copbait. What the manager saw was half story not full.
And yes, i got proofs to disprove him, rather i had sent that on required forums. Well, you don't get followed up by [email protected] many times you report someone in the HQ. Things are done behind the scenes which even you are unaware of.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 03, 2014, 06:23:28 pm
New players are what make up Argonath. How is a new player going to have enough experience of something without even being allowed to experience the something? Your logic doesn't make sense.

Try to think deeper mate, if you don't wanna extend the time for a player joining the police duty, sure it's up to you, but atleast you guys can make the question a bit difficult? I don't think that's to hard to do.
The server has provided a command /help and from that a new player could get all the information about the cops and could pass the exams. I think this could help a little.

But much of the direct DM cases come from those not having passports.

No, Manaz, I would not agree with this. The player having PASSPORT/Licence also have an bad admin record.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Rusty on May 03, 2014, 08:14:45 pm
New players will always be allowed to join cop duty if they wish.
No point to argue about it, it's not going to change.

Requiring a passport and even a drivers license to go onto cop duty should be a requirement.  The "cop test" before you can go on duty was added (should have been made harder lol) so why not require people to have a passport first aswell?  New payers can't get on duty if they can't pass the test so ... they aren't "always" allowed.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 03, 2014, 08:21:07 pm
That's what I meant in my previous posts. I'll you a short explanation. A player who is new into the server, he doesn't even know who owns the server, or how does the server work. He gets on cop duty without knowing the server, that how the server works. So, do you expect anything positive from the new player whom even don't know any shit about the server. Don't consider this as moaning towards the new players. Just an example.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Crassus on May 03, 2014, 08:56:08 pm
Just sharing this:
In Argonath MTA:SA server you would need to have a passport before even having the ability to take test before you can go on duty. The test actual cannot be passed with out proper knowledge regarding ARPD and the server. The new player that want to be on duty is actually taking initiative to browse though the forum and knowing the rules so he can pass the test.
This works pretty good IMO, but then again we're different than SA:MP.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 03, 2014, 08:59:45 pm
Just sharing this:
In Argonath MTA:SA server you would need to have a passport before even having the ability to take test before you can go on duty. The test actual cannot be passed with out proper knowledge regarding ARPD and the server. The new player that want to be on duty is actually taking initiative to browse though the forum and knowing the rules so he can pass the test.
This works pretty good IMO, but then again we're different than SA:MP.


Yes, we all know that MTA:SA is totally different from SA:MP, but atleast we could bring some changes? Without some knowledge about the server and the roles and hopes of a cop how do you even expect a player to go onduty? 
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Crassus on May 03, 2014, 09:02:59 pm
I totally agree with you there. With out proper knowledge regarding how the server works and it's rules you cant really expect a cop acting like one. In SA:MP everybody can be a cop and I noticed a lot of new cops rely on the help chat too much. Guidance is a very important factor too, they are not becoming better if people start flaming the new cop but instead it would be better to push them in the right direction.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 03, 2014, 09:06:38 pm
I never go backwards while helping a new player, but it's really annoying when a player whom we have guided does the opposite thing. I really think that why doesn't the management team understands this thing.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CharlieKasper on May 03, 2014, 10:13:15 pm
You just can't compare MTA SA and SA MP and I have already said why.
I never go backwards while helping a new player, but it's really annoying when a player whom we have guided does the opposite thing. I really think that why doesn't the management team understands this thing.
Your logic is twisted.. and you contradict yourself.
A player requires to gain experience to be experienced. He would still be pretty much inexperienced even if he reads everything about police procedures in ARPD website just because HE HASN'T put anything to practice. I would, in an hour, forget those 10-15 paragraph of procedures until I immediately try them (and so will any average person in the world). So unless I get live advise (which our new players can get via /h or by personally getting a player to help them), they won't improve. Nobody would bother alt tabbing to see what to do when a suspect is standing still. This I speak from experience. The faster they improve, they better. Requirement of passport and license would just delay it.

If a new player doesn't follow the rules even after he has been advised, you report them and then we do our best to improve them.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on May 04, 2014, 02:05:46 am

Blame all the "cool" veterans who think they are so "cool" that they have no time to teach new players how to become cops. If that wasn't bad enough, you'd see these trains of thought from them too:

"oh, aren't there enough cops already anyway?"
"I shouldn't be forced to help new players, that's something for admins"
"It's irritating to see help chat when I'm trying to focus on my own little world in roleplay, f**k those people asking for help"


After, they only further discriminate on and blame those new players when they rulebreak because none of the older players gave a f**k when they were trying to learn the rules and ropes. Unfortunately, the reason we've needed this a script is quality control, just to make sure that helping new cops didn't shrivel up into nothingness because there weren't enough who were willing.

People have no right to f**king complain about new players if they themselves turned a blind eye when those new players were asking for help. Many new players lack knowledge of the rules because of "veterans" who didn't give a f**k about informing them, focusing instead on themselves.

P.S: At the end of this quote, I realize you are misinformed; the scirpt is not a "tutorial", but a test; that a new player cannot become a cop unless they know some very basic facts about Argonath, as well as how to drive/shoot half-decently.


So a script is needed to 'test' people in order to see if they are able to join? Whats next? a scripted test to join the administration team? don't automate things that shouldn't be automated :-)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 04, 2014, 07:59:58 am
You just can't compare MTA SA and SA MP and I have already said why.Your logic is twisted.. and you contradict yourself.
A player requires to gain experience to be experienced.

And what are the causalities?
DMing a group of people and then getting copbanned?
Your logic is totally wrong
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 04, 2014, 11:45:37 am
So a script is needed to 'test' people in order to see if they are able to join? Whats next? a scripted test to join the administration team? don't automate things that shouldn't be automated :-)

I'm not entirely in favor of automation either, but I point out that things had to reach this level because we have too much regulars and "veterans" who turn up their noses at new players.

*Newplayer joins server*
Newplayer: "hi, i am new what i do on this server"
Regular: "f**k off, I'm too busy focusing on my own roleplay. I have no time to help new players like you."
*regular doesn't teach new player*
*Newplayer breaks rules out of ignorance*
Regular: "OMG ADMINS THIS NOOB IS DMING ME WE NEED MORE LIMITS ON NEW PLAYERS"

Such logic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on May 04, 2014, 12:02:31 pm
I'm not entirely in favor of automation either, but I point out that things had to reach this level because we have too much regulars and "veterans" who turn up their noses at new players.

*Newplayer joins server*
Newplayer: "hi, i am new what i do on this server"
Regular: "f**k off, I'm too busy focusing on my own roleplay. I have no time to help new players like you."
*regular doesn't teach new player*
*Newplayer breaks rules*
Regular: "OMG ADMINS THIS NOOB IS DMING ME WE NEED MORE LIMITS ON NEW PLAYERS"

Such logic.
true dat.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CharlieKasper on May 04, 2014, 12:39:29 pm
And what are the causalities?
DMing a group of people and then getting copbanned?
Your logic is totally wrong
What?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 04, 2014, 12:55:26 pm
What?

I am speaking of the "experience" you were telling of.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on May 04, 2014, 01:28:16 pm
Please keep up with the subject of the topic.

Personal arguments, debate about things not related, debate about new players, this and that, please put your ego and urge to answer someone's offtopic away, and keep it focused on the subject of the topic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Solis on May 04, 2014, 02:09:00 pm
I'm not entirely in favor of automation either, but I point out that things had to reach this level because we have too much regulars and "veterans" who turn up their noses at new players.

*Newplayer joins server*
Newplayer: "hi, i am new what i do on this server"
Regular: "f**k off, I'm too busy focusing on my own roleplay. I have no time to help new players like you."
*regular doesn't teach new player*
*Newplayer breaks rules out of ignorance*
Regular: "OMG ADMINS THIS NOOB IS DMING ME WE NEED MORE LIMITS ON NEW PLAYERS"

Such logic.

You would have a point if this actually happened in the first place.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 02:42:03 pm
I'm not entirely in favor of automation either, but I point out that things had to reach this level because we have too much regulars and "veterans" who turn up their noses at new players.

*Newplayer joins server*
Newplayer: "hi, i am new what i do on this server"
Regular: "f**k off, I'm too busy focusing on my own roleplay. I have no time to help new players like you."
*regular doesn't teach new player*
*Newplayer breaks rules out of ignorance*
Regular: "OMG ADMINS THIS NOOB IS DMING ME WE NEED MORE LIMITS ON NEW PLAYERS"

Such logic.

Can you show me even a single example of a regular player behaving like that with the new players?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 02:49:35 pm
It happens that regular/veterans say that helping new players is not there job, yet they complain when new player break rules that impact their gameplay.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Lustigkurre on May 04, 2014, 02:58:21 pm

*Newplayer joins server*
Newplayer: "hi, i am new what i do on this server"
Regular: "f**k off, I'm too busy focusing on my own roleplay. I have no time to help new players like you."
*regular doesn't teach new player*
*Newplayer breaks rules out of ignorance*
Regular: "OMG ADMINS THIS NOOB IS DMING ME WE NEED MORE LIMITS ON NEW PLAYERS"

Such logic.

Must have been fun for you to write those lines, but I don't think these kind of scenes actually happens.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: TiMoN on May 04, 2014, 03:08:43 pm
Must have been fun for you to write those lines, but I don't think these kind of scenes actually happens.
True, nobody tells anyone to f**k off without getting kicked.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 03:34:24 pm
http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/index.php?topic=32469.0
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 03:36:02 pm
http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/index.php?topic=32469.0

At least next time you know that if you have to do something, you better quit the game than staying AFK.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 03:37:42 pm
At least next time you know that if you have to do something, you better quit the game than staying AFK.

lol! Don't take out mistakes from it. Read the whole report. ;)

You checking that what mistake I have made, see that what the newcomer did?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 03:49:44 pm
lol! Don't take out mistakes from it. Read the whole report. ;)

You checking that what mistake I have made, see that what the newcomer did?

Have you tried to help him and explain him how the server works?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 03:53:30 pm
No, I have not. I got a perfect reason behind it. When I returned into the game, he was no online at that time.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 04, 2014, 03:57:47 pm
This is where I would like to see people helping others instead of resorting to reports for every little matter.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 04, 2014, 06:23:39 pm
Have you tried to help him and explain him how the server works?
Exactly what I wanted to hear. Many have a problem with this, it's not funny for them. And it's not funny when you don't have power to unsuspect yourself and then laugh at the chicken skin guy who probably /q to avoid ban.

He was AFK, there's no rule to stop anyone going AFK, unless he's blocking a "busy" road/PnS. ( Oh wait... )



This is where I would like to see people helping others instead of resorting to reports for every little matter.
The HQ should understand our frustration when such things happen. It's not our duty, as civilians, to teach a cop how to do his job. There are SAPD high-ranks who should be doing this and there are moderators as well. A regular player might do it once, twice, but not all the time. People go IG to have fun and RP, not teach some dudes that don't understand English how to not ruin their game-play.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 04, 2014, 06:43:55 pm

The HQ should understand our frustration when such things happen. It's not our duty, as civilians, to teach a cop how to do his job. There are SAPD high-ranks who should be doing this and there are moderators as well. A regular player might do it once, twice, but not all the time. People go IG to have fun and RP, not teach some dudes that don't understand English how to not ruin their game-play.

 :app: :app: :app: :app: :app:
Hats Off.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on May 04, 2014, 07:15:52 pm
I'm not entirely in favor of automation either, but I point out that things had to reach this level because we have too much regulars and "veterans" who turn up their noses at new players.

*Newplayer joins server*
Newplayer: "hi, i am new what i do on this server"
Regular: "f**k off, I'm too busy focusing on my own roleplay. I have no time to help new players like you."
*regular doesn't teach new player*
*Newplayer breaks rules out of ignorance*
Regular: "OMG ADMINS THIS NOOB IS DMING ME WE NEED MORE LIMITS ON NEW PLAYERS"

Such logic.

That's what you get when no action is taken against so called 'regulars with the argonath vision'
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 07:22:34 pm
It's not our duty, as civilians, to teach a cop how to do his job.

Here we go. You are part of an official group and you are a regular player.
Therefore you job is to help anyone on this server. If you don't bother doing that, then don't complain.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 04, 2014, 07:29:20 pm
You would have a point if this actually happened in the first place.
Can you show me even a single example of a regular player behaving like that with the new players?
Must have been fun for you to write those lines, but I don't think these kind of scenes actually happens.
True, nobody tells anyone to f**k off without getting kicked.

If you thought I was typing those lines verbatim rather than how the train of thought works, then your common sense needs improvement.

I cba to post such singular instances as I have better things to do than lie in wait for the next regular who doesn't give a f**k about new players. But if you really want me or someone else to, and you become guilty of this, don't pull up any regrets or excuses if your or your friends' names are posted for all the world to see.

In the real [Argonath] world, different from the distant, theoretical realm of people who value roleplay and exclusivity over being nice to others, this actually happens a lot. Or else, we wouldn't even need it to be a specialized task of Moderators in the first place. We even have examples in this very topic.



The HQ should understand our frustration when such things happen. It's not our duty, as civilians, to teach a cop how to do his job. There are SAPD high-ranks who should be doing this and there are moderators as well. A regular player might do it once, twice, but not all the time. People go IG to have fun and RP, not teach some dudes that don't understand English how to not ruin their game-play.

The non-English speakers cannot really be taught anyway; the best we can do is direct them to someone who speaks their language, but usually they never stay long, for obvious reasons. So let's get that out of the picture.

Regular cops who abuse and rulebreak are a different matter. We have the ARPD/SAPD/FBI and admins to handle them.

When you're talking about a new player, they are still a new player, regardless if they are cop, fireman, driver, criminal, mechanic, etc. And you, regardless of your occupation, are a player who knows more than them. If a junior player breaks the rules (rules which YOU are aware of, especially being part of an OFFICIAL group... what a nice example we have here) out of ignorance and you choose to turn a blind eye and pin the blame on someone else, rather than teach them (even if you know how it is done correctly) because of some excuse such as

It's not our duty

then you have no right to complain the next time you see a new player breaking a rule because someone didn't bother to enlighten them in the first place, when they had the chance.

Not to mention your post generalized just about all new players who were ignorant of the rules as non-English speakers and a general waste of time.



That's what you get when no action is taken against so called 'regulars with the argonath vision'

Just what is your point here?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Chuck_Norris on May 04, 2014, 07:32:18 pm
If you see no point - My point is made. Reflect on that !
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 04, 2014, 07:35:41 pm
If you see no point - My point is made. Reflect on that !

All that is clear is you connecting the problems at the moment with the Argonath Vision. We are forum posters, not mind-readers, so do not complain if ambiguous statements do not translate well.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CharlieKasper on May 04, 2014, 07:40:35 pm
He was AFK, there's no rule to stop anyone going AFK, unless he's blocking a "busy" road/PnS. ( Oh wait... )
We won't protect anyone for being AFK either. It has always been suggested that if you want to head off for quite some time, use /q. Don't go AFK.
The HQ should understand our frustration when such things happen. It's not our duty, as civilians, to teach a cop how to do his job. There are SAPD high-ranks who should be doing this and there are moderators as well. A regular player might do it once, twice, but not all the time. People go IG to have fun and RP, not teach some dudes that don't understand English how to not ruin their game-play.
You've no right to complain about something if you don't do anything about it. The veterans and regulars are looked upon by new players for help. If a veteran doesn't help, how the fuck do you think a new player will improve? Even if he somehows manages to learn about everything on the server, do you think he will think about helping a new player, when a Veteran didn't help him when he needed help?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Petarda on May 04, 2014, 07:49:00 pm
You are part of an official group and you are a regular player.
Therefore you job is to help anyone on this server. If you don't bother doing that, then don't complain.
He has no "job" to do on this server, the only thing he has to do is play, your job is to help people.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 04, 2014, 07:49:23 pm
I was quite active with this community for years(2009-2011/2012ish). I had never played any RPG type of game besides roleplaying on forums, at the time. So whe ni came here, and saw a nice community to be apart of. As a new player, I had a general concept of what an RPG was. I wasn't some moron who joined and began dming everything. I am sick of people assuming new players join and just DM, yes there have always been these cases but this does NOT apply to everyone. As far as the people who join and DM, do they lack the common sense or understanding on what an RPG actually is? Especially now when there are tons of games that are RPGs. So quit tunnel visioning assuming every new player needs a hand in how to RP, the only thing they should truly need help with...the commands. Hell, when you used to join it said how you could get help.

Now reading through all of this, or most, in this topic. I find it immensely sickening to see veterans or administrators arguing with the fact that something should be done about an issue that is being brought up to the ENTIRE community's attention. I really do question how much you care for this community. This is NOT an isolated incident, if it has been happening for YEARS. I mean, if you have something brought up to your attention, and multiple people are upset about it, do you god damn job and do something about it. Don't give these crappy answers like Cyril has all topic on how everything is handled behind the scenes blah blah. Without these people in Gvardia, in the SAPD/FBI, as Civilians, there would be NO community. I feel bad for good people in the SAPD/FBI who honestly have to deal with these abusers, when they are there for the same reason as everyone else...to have fun and Roleplay. Honestly, I began to not have fun because of dealing with ANY type of rule-breaker all of the time and that is why I really don't play at all. i would like to come back, but the toxicity of the community towards eachother and lack of enforcement of the rules, that's not how it should be. So people who still play, I give you alot of credit for being able to tolerate all of that.

Overall, people need to be able to voice their opinions with respect, towards anyone. If it is a problem that is happening over and over, it NEEDS to be addressed. If you're an administrator and you feel it's no big deal, guess what? It isn't about you, it's about the person who came to you for HELP. So stop arguing trying to be 'right' and compromise. I feel like this is like the Democrats vs. Republicans here in the United States.

Also....I am not angry or anything, I am calm and just relaxing. I hope this can all be solved and I hope to return to the community to see my friends and my family.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 07:55:06 pm
Here we go. You are part of an official group and you are a regular player.
Therefore you job is to help anyone on this server. If you don't bother doing that, then don't complain.

I don't see any fault from his side if he's apart of an official group and not helping newcomer with the police script/system. He's in a group which have a 'CRIMINAL' status. As it was dicussed before that half of the server is on cop suty (Including high rank officers, and if not them for sure there would be an/some admin(s) online). They there to help them with the script that how does the cop system works. If not them, the server and puttin all the thing regarding cops in /help.

P.S: If there is some mistake(s) ignore them, because I posted it with my phone.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 08:00:35 pm
He has no "job" to do on this server, the only thing he has to do is play, your job is to help people.

No you can't just say that helping new players is thier job. If so, then stop complaining about the newcomers (not the cops) that they DM or break any other rules.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Arslan on May 04, 2014, 08:04:27 pm
Here we go. You are part of an official group and you are a regular player.
Therefore you job is to help anyone on this server. If you don't bother doing that, then don't complain.

What? I don't understand what you mean? So if your part of a official clan/group it is obligatory to help every new player and in his case even if your a criminal, teach him how to be a cop? Or your not allowed to give your views about any faults on the server..?

Players come to the server to have fun and relax not go round looking for new players to help. I'm not saying you shouldn't help new players, of course you should but that's if the person wants to do it. It isn't their responsibility to make sure everyone knows how to play. 
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CharlieKasper on May 04, 2014, 08:08:18 pm
He has no "job" to do on this server, the only thing he has to do is play, your job is to help people.
He has no right to complain then either. :)


I don't see any fault from his side if he's apart of an official group and not helping newcomer with the police script/system. He's in a group which have a 'CRIMINAL' status. As it was dicussed before that half of the server is on cop suty (Including high rank officers, and if not them for sure there would be an/some admin(s) online). They there to help them with the script that how does the cop system works. If not them, the server and puttin all the thing regarding cops in /help.

P.S: If there is some mistake(s) ignore them, because I posted it with my phone.
What? I don't understand what you mean? So if your part of a official clan/group it is obligatory to help every new player and in his case even if your a criminal, teach him how to be a cop? Or your not allowed to give your views about any faults on the server..?

Players come to the server to have fun and relax not go round looking for new players to help. I'm not saying you shouldn't help new players, of course you should but that's if the person wants to do it. It isn't their responsibility to make sure everyone knows how to play. 
Helping players is one of the many reasons why a group is issued official status as far as I know. So if a group doesn't want to help, why would they get to keep their official status?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Arslan on May 04, 2014, 08:17:28 pm


So if a group doesn't want to help, why would they get to keep their official status?

Why you twisting my words? Did I say anything like that? I didn't say no one wants to help new or old players. My question was towards Cyril about saying it is it is obligatory to help new players. Argonath gets new players nearly everyday. Players go in to RP and have fun. And I don't think having a official status means you have to help players 24/7.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 08:20:46 pm
Why you twisting my words? Did I say anything like that? My question was towards Cyril about saying it is it is obligatory to help new players. Argonath gets new players nearly everyday. Players go in to RP and have fun. And I don't think having a official status means you have to help players 24/7.

Correct! Getting an Official status is not given through helping players, it is been issued by thier activity and dedication towards RP.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 08:24:28 pm
Correct! Getting an Official status is not given through helping players, it is been issued by thier activity and dedication towards RP.

Wrong. Helping others also count.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 08:26:04 pm
Why you twisting my words? Did I say anything like that? I didn't say no one wants to help new or old players. My question was towards Cyril about saying it is it is obligatory to help new players. Argonath gets new players nearly everyday. Players go in to RP and have fun. And I don't think having a official status means you have to help players 24/7.

Why you twisting my words? I didn't say they had to help players 24/7.
If they encounter someone that is not familiar with how things works, they have to try to teach them.
Don't expect admins to teach everyone, if you do think admins have to teach every new players, then don't complain next time you report someone and no one is answering your report.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 04, 2014, 08:28:18 pm
Official groups are supposed to be Role Models, and when I became an official group member, I was never told that it was a must that I needed to help others. But I'm not going to argue about that either, as whatever I type can be misunderstood and a whole group gets burnt because of something I typed over the internet. My job to help others would be if I was a moderator. Yes, I have applied to be one, but until I'm accepted ( IF ) I'm not "forced" to help new-comers on how to /su someone, how to properly arrest someone, how to NOT DB suspects with lower speed, etc.

I do help people in /h chat. I do help people who ask for help in my PM. But, I don't ( usually ) help people how to not /su someone because I simply don't remember SAPD regulations, nor am I going to read them because I've no relations with SAPD, whatsoever.



Why you twisting my words? I didn't say they had to help players 24/7.
If they encounter someone that is not familiar with how things works, they have to try to teach them.
Don't expect admins to teach everyone, if you do think admins have to teach every new players, then don't complain next time you report someone and no one is answering your report.
I won't even be online 24/7.
I'm busy, I don't know anything how SAPD works, I'm a civilian. I know the laws, not like most cops, I can't help them. Would you revoke an official status because one group member can't do that ?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Arslan on May 04, 2014, 08:31:15 pm
Why you twisting my words? I didn't say they had to help players 24/7.

I wasn't? I was saying that to Charlie.

+ What you on about? I didn't say admins have to teach everyone. Re-read what I said. It was about you saying, from what I understood, it is compulsory to help player or you don't have the right to speak about any problem you may have within the server.

My view is to help all players but I also believe its up to the player when he does or doesn't want to do it.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 08:32:17 pm
Why you twisting my words? I didn't say they had to help players 24/7.
If they encounter someone that is not familiar with how things works, they have to try to teach them.
Don't expect admins to teach everyone, if you do think admins have to teach every new players, then don't complain next time you report someone and no one is answering your report.

That's the point which we are try to explain you guys since last few weeks. You have to extend the time before a new player could join police duty. Without any knowledge about the role and hopes, how do you expect them not to break rules. Let them understand the things first. If the management team would not give any responce then for sure poeple will complain.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 08:36:03 pm
You guys don't understand that it's not new player fault if you are abused or DMed or whatever.
It's the community fault by not welcoming there, introducing them to the server, trying to help them out.
Few players used to drive to LSAP to welcome new players and give them a guided tour, explaining how things work here.
If more players were doing that instead of talking crap on main chat 24/7 or driving around without any purpose, the server quality would increase and we would have more players.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 04, 2014, 08:39:42 pm
You guys don't understand that it's not new player fault if you are abused or DMed or whatever.
It's the community fault by not welcoming there, introducing them to the server, trying to help them out.
Few players used to drive to LSAP to welcome new players and give them a guided tour, explaining how things work here.
If more players were doing that instead of talking crap on main chat 24/7 or driving around without any purpose, the server quality would increase and we would have more players.
There's no more /hduty on/off. Recruit more moderators if that's a problem.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: KelviNC on May 04, 2014, 08:40:52 pm
Here we go! You came up with an idea. Then bring an introduction view before a new player registers.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Arslan on May 04, 2014, 08:42:55 pm
Text
Still didn't answer my question but okay.
People come to the server to have a chat with people on main chat and some times its crap but they enjoy it + main chat is one of the reasons I like playing here - its funny, entertaining and you find out new things sometimes. Man I don't understand what you mean? Its like you want everyone to be sitting at LSAP with cars waiting for new players to arrive and start helping them.

Its is up to the players when they do and don't want to help new players and should remain that way without a manager saying 'did you help anyone today?' 'Nah not today didn't feel like it.' ' oh okay, don't ever come to me with any problem you may face on the server'.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 08:48:36 pm
Its is up to the players when they do and don't want to help new players and should remain that way without a manager saying 'did you help anyone today?' 'Nah not today didn't feel like it.' ' oh okay, don't ever come to me with any problem you may face on the server'.

Why not? I'm a player, and as everyone is equal here, if you ask me for help, I can just answer "No, I don't feel like helping today".
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Arslan on May 04, 2014, 08:50:57 pm
Why not? I'm a player, and as everyone is equal here, if you ask me for help, I can just answer "No, I don't feel like helping today".

There is a difference between answering a few questions or giving directions to someone if they are stuck and babysitting them until you've taught them everything they need to know to be a good player.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CharlieKasper on May 04, 2014, 10:14:59 pm
Why you twisting my words? Did I say anything like that? I didn't say no one wants to help new or old players. My question was towards Cyril about saying it is it is obligatory to help new players. Argonath gets new players nearly everyday. Players go in to RP and have fun. And I don't think having a official status means you have to help players 24/7.
Nobody asks to help a new player 24/7 but if Stivi's complaining about it, he has faced it and in which case he's supposed to help the guy he's facing the issue with, that's for being from an official group. We don't ask you to go around LSAP and help every new player you see but if you are having a personal problem with a new player, you as a part of an official group should help him instead of complaining on forums or public chat.
Not obligatory to help new players, but if you don't help, that removes your right to complain. Just /report and move on, don't complain.

Hell there are even times when I don't want to help anyone but just play with my friends.

That's the point which we are try to explain you guys since last few weeks. You have to extend the time before a new player could join police duty. Without any knowledge about the role and hopes, how do you expect them not to break rules. Let them understand the things first. If the management team would not give any responce then for sure poeple will complain.
Do you not use any logic? How can a player understand something without even experiencing it?

I give you a car for the first time and instruct you how to slowly accelerate.Can YOU drive it without having any problem (dropping the clutch way too early, as an example of a problem) for the very first time you TRY it?
Absolutely not, not one has ever done done. There's no point in theory until something has been put to practice. Not allowing players to join police duty without passport would just delay the problem to a later date. The faster they learn, the better.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on May 04, 2014, 10:16:46 pm
Stop blaming everything on the new players.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on May 04, 2014, 10:18:04 pm
I'm not entirely in favor of automation either, but I point out that things had to reach this level because we have too much regulars and "veterans" who turn up their noses at new players.

*Newplayer joins server*
Newplayer: "hi, i am new what i do on this server"
Regular: "f**k off, I'm too busy focusing on my own roleplay. I have no time to help new players like you."
*regular doesn't teach new player*
*Newplayer breaks rules out of ignorance*
Regular: "OMG ADMINS THIS NOOB IS DMING ME WE NEED MORE LIMITS ON NEW PLAYERS"

Such logic.
i have seen this happening more than once.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 04, 2014, 10:32:07 pm
I am rather bored of these pointless arguments, the least a veteran player and community member could do is to assist players if they see a player in need.
No this does not mean you MUST help new players but giving new players a hand every so often will not kill you.

Stop blaming new players for shit, stop blaming administrators for not doing every single thing including babysitting you all when someone breaks a damn rule.

The point of the server is fun, helping others at times is the least veterans can do after all administration has done for them in the past.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Solis on May 04, 2014, 10:40:28 pm
If you thought I was typing those lines verbatim rather than how the train of thought works, then your common sense needs improvement.

I cba to post such singular instances as I have better things to do than lie in wait for the next regular who doesn't give a f**k about new players. But if you really want me or someone else to, and you become guilty of this, don't pull up any regrets or excuses if your or your friends' names are posted for all the world to see.

In the real [Argonath] world, different from the distant, theoretical realm of people who value roleplay and exclusivity over being nice to others, this actually happens a lot. Or else, we wouldn't even need it to be a specialized task of Moderators in the first place. We even have examples in this very topic.

If you weren't serious with that example then you should have brought up a more realistic one, because anyone who has read your posts, then that one, would believe you were being serious, and would know that such cases don't happen.

For one, nobody who focuses on his role-play has told some newbie asking for help to f**k off. Second, and this is the real reason I disagreed with your post and many other here, is that such new players as in your example don't really exist.



From my own experience in 5 years interacting with new players, the ones that break the rules rarely if ever ask for help beforehand, in fact they don't even say anything on main chat. The ones that ask for help usually don't do any rule-break, and get picked up and helped by a Good Samaritan.

In contrast, the rule-breakers normally either are mute or speak in a foreign language, and don't care about what the server is about. They go straight to the closest dot they see on the radar and being punching them or ramming them with their vehicle. They won't even listen to you, they'll just continue doing what they're doing until an admin stops them, and only then do they semi-understand what they shouldn't do, and only because they've already been caught. A good example of what I'm talking about was posted by Manas on this topic:

ABUSE NO.2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-ZAc9B5C7Q&feature=youtu.be

Note - He got punished by admin with a tempban of 17mins, Again thanks Slavik and Leon.

So it's not actually a moot point to say that new players will understand if you simply help and teach them. Some may will, but it's not a golden stick with which you can solve the rule-breaking that occurs daily.

Which is why it's even more disappointing and cringe-worthy to see the way admins treat regular players on this thread, telling them they should either futilely teach the rule-breakers or just suck it up, even going to the point of mocking /reports as "moaning" and "babysitting". Specially these posts:

Don't expect admins to teach everyone, if you do think admins have to teach every new players, then don't complain next time you report someone and no one is answering your report.

Why not? I'm a player, and as everyone is equal here, if you ask me for help, I can just answer "No, I don't feel like helping today".



Do you not use any logic? How can a player understand something without even experiencing it?

I give you a car for the first time and instruct you how to slowly accelerate.Can YOU drive it without having any problem (dropping the clutch way too early, as an example of a problem) for the very first time you TRY it?
Absolutely not, not one has ever done done. There's no point in theory until something has been put to practice. Not allowing players to join police duty without passport would just delay the problem to a later date. The faster they learn, the better.

In real life people don't learn how to properly drive a vehicle by crashing into every pedestrian, lamp post, vehicle and house down the road, like new players seem to learn how being police officer works. They learn in a very secured and monitored environment with a guide next to them, and they must already have some experience and requisites beforehand (minimum age, documents, at least knowing how a vehicle works, etc.).

Police officer, even in-game, is a dynamic job, which means the situations are usually not the same and ever-changing, so theory alone won't always work. That doesn't mean people wouldn't already learn a lot with theory and a week-long experience before becoming a police officer.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Arslan on May 04, 2014, 10:44:57 pm
No this does not mean you MUST help new players but giving new players a hand every so often will not kill you.

The point of the server is fun, helping others at times is the least veterans can do after all administration has done for them in the past.

Yeah, that's what I mean and I have no problem with that.

Not obligatory to help new players, but if you don't help, that removes your right to complain.
That's the same as saying unless you help new player I don't give a shit about any problem you may have so you are making it obligatory. Anyways Devin basically summed it up and i'll leave it at that.

Lastly the best way to learn is by playing which is the whole point of a game and what makes it fun... Players don't want lessons on how to play, they get enough of that in school.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 04, 2014, 11:17:32 pm
I am rather bored of these pointless arguments, the least a veteran player and community member could do is to assist players if they see a player in need.
No this does not mean you MUST help new players but giving new players a hand every so often will not kill you.

Stop blaming new players for shit, stop blaming administrators for not doing every single thing including babysitting you all when someone breaks a damn rule.

The point of the server is fun, helping others at times is the least veterans can do after all administration has done for them in the past.

Just because you grow bored of this, doesn't resolve the issue, don't be such a fool with a nonsense statement. I agree, people should aid eachother and it is everyones choice(except administrations) to help others out. If people break a rule, they will be blamed for it as they should be. It is up to them to accept it, fix it and move on. It is an administrators job to enforce the rules, you cannot punish everything that breaks a rule, but if they are repeat offenders they will be caught...and it seems they aren't if it's consistently happening. Yes the point of this whole community is fun, but when others are tainting it, how is that fun? All administration has done for who in the past? If it weren't for the normal community members, there would be NO COMMUNITY. The least you can do is help solve the problem instead of letting everyone know you're bored, as probably one of them care whether you are bored or entertained....they just want the problem solved.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 04, 2014, 11:22:20 pm
Just because you grow bored of this, doesn't resolve the issue, don't be such a fool with a nonsense statement. I agree, people should aid eachother and it is everyones choice(except administrations) to help others out. If people break a rule, they will be blamed for it as they should be. It is up to them to accept it, fix it and move on. It is an administrators job to enforce the rules, you cannot punish everything that breaks a rule, but if they are repeat offenders they will be caught...and it seems they aren't if it's consistently happening. Yes the point of this whole community is fun, but when others are tainting it, how is that fun? All administration has done for who in the past? If it weren't for the normal community members, there would be NO COMMUNITY. The least you can do is help solve the problem instead of letting everyone know you're bored, as probably one of them care whether you are bored or entertained....they just want the problem solved.

And who the fuck are you?

An argument or discussion without any proper content is simply a waste of time.
If people that don't know how things function want to come about saying how things should be handled when they haven't a clue about the scripts and systems then they should think twice before trying to judge.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cyril on May 04, 2014, 11:22:42 pm
if they are repeat offenders they will be caught...and it seems they aren't if it's consistently happening. Yes the point of this whole community is fun, but when others are tainting it, how is that fun?

Every regular/veteran that break more than 3 rules will be banned.
After all, they have no excuse. 
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 05, 2014, 12:46:28 am
And who the f**k are you?

An argument or discussion without any proper content is simply a waste of time.
If people that don't know how things function want to come about saying how things should be handled when they haven't a clue about the scripts and systems then they should think twice before trying to judge.

Yet you think you are all knowing? Get off your high horse there bud, before you get knocked off of it. Also, no need to cuss, that's quite immature of you. I was a very active member of the community and in my days of absence I am still a member of the community, that's who the f**k I am. Now that is out of the way, we don't need to understand every little way the scripts work...we understand the fundamentals of the community and that is really all the community needs to know. So how about quit 'arguing' and do something about the problem that has been brought up to you. Do your job, or step down from any position you have. Quite simple really.

Every regular/veteran that break more than 3 rules will be banned.
After all, they have no excuse. 
Which is fine, so start doing it. They can read, they should be able to understand the rules, if someone breaks the rules multiple times, then they are out. it's nice that they get a chance or two, as they may not understand the rules since they are in English, but after that problem has been addressed everything should be good. So I agree with what you just stated, it should just happen more often as it seems to be an issue still....or Cofiliano wouldn't have made this topic.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 05, 2014, 12:52:48 am
Do your job, or step down from any position you have. Quite simple really.

Entertaining but no seeing as you have no idea what is going on within the server.
My "job" as you put it does not include listening to banter of those that haven't been around for months to know what's going on.

The "issue" that has been brought up is that people want to see others punished more instead of being guided more which would favour them.
If it's an old/experienced player breaking the rules then administration will deal with them accordingly by removing them from the server.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 05, 2014, 01:01:50 am
Entertaining but no seeing as you have no idea what is going on within the server.
My "job" as you put it does not include listening to banter of those that haven't been around for months to know what's going on.

The "issue" that has been brought up is that people want to see others punished more instead of being guided more which would favour them.
If it's an old/experienced player breaking the rules then administration will deal with them accordingly by removing them from the server.

The person originally 'bantering' was Cofiliano and multiple other community members, so I recommend you do your job and listen to what the community says. I am pretty sure that they just want to see some equality. Not your twisted idea. I don't need to be in the server to know that this issue has been going on for ages now, it isn't rocket science. So chill out, just attempt to help people out. Is it hard to help people in their time of need? New players need to be guided and taught, but what about when veterans need help because of an ongoing issue? Do you feel that you do not need to listen to them? That is what you are making it seem like.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 05, 2014, 01:09:21 am
I've done what I can and other HQ members have done what they can to help multiple people and have been dealing with this but it's apparent that some people don't read as it's easier to repeat the supposed matter instead of hearing out solutions.

If it's an old/experienced player breaking the rules then administration will deal with them accordingly by removing them from the server.

The administration team has been told to only act on rulebreaking when it comes to server rules, exactly like any other player. If they are breaking SAPD rules and procedures (if they are now SAPD and not FBI), they should be reported to SAPD.

I have seen 2 examples in here, /su abuse and deathmatching.

When it comes to /su abuse, it can be several solutions depending on how someone is abused through /su.

Lets say i'm getting randomly suspected by a player for a crime i haven't done. The officer that suspected me is only trying to arrest me, then it's a SAPD matter. /su was used correctly from a administrative PoV (aka to suspect someone) but the regulations SAPD have for /su was broken which means no server rule was broken.

If i would be randomly suspected by a police officer for a crime i have not done and then instantly killed, then it would be considered deathmatching and it becomes an administrative matter since the police officer broke a server rule.

The same with just deathmatching in general. If a police officer is deathmatching a player then it's an administrative matter and should be handled by a staff member online. They should not be reported to SAPD in that case.

I will bring this up on our next staff meeting to make sure that everyone is up to date on this matter.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 05, 2014, 01:21:40 am
I've done what I can and other HQ members have done what they can to help multiple people and have been dealing with this but it's apparent that some people don't read as it's easier to repeat the supposed matter instead of hearing out solutions.

Yet things rarely get done and the problem persists and gets worse. The exact opposite should happen if things were being done about it, like yea...the problem would go down. Everyone has a life outside of Argonath, I would hope, but when you have a job within a community to improve it any way you can, you do it. if you guys are up to your necks in dealing with issues, then recruit a couple of new moderators who are mature, don't go overboard but that may help the issues. I also know that you cannot willy nilly recruit someone, but that doesn't mean don't do it. The thing is, we are honestly on the same side of the fence in a way, as we mutually want things solved. You should quit thinking in a closed minded way, and open up. It isn't negative that people bring up these problems periodically, as it will hopefully bring action. Everyone wants to have fun, so give them that.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 05, 2014, 01:41:01 am
I have dedicated the last two+ years of my time to the SA:MP server and administration team doing all I could to favour the players, to do what I could to help out players and groups alike.
The hours upon hours of my time spent every week to keep things moving, to be there if players needed any kind of assistance with RS5 and the new scripts.
I have done what I can to bridge the gap between the HQ and players/groups by being responsive and active, I have done what I can to help get groups back on their feet once again within RS5 and to help new groups get started and in the right direction.
I somewhat doubt I am "closed minded" but if you feel that way, sure maybe I am when I grow tired of people saying things need to be done and HQ is ignoring them whilst the rest of the administration team and myself run around trying to come to a fair conclusion and solution to the matter.

As said multiple times, we do not ignore players asking for help or change however everything is to be discussed to ensure changes benefit administration and players alike to avoid issues and/or conflict.

Fair enough?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 05, 2014, 03:26:37 am
I have dedicated the last two+ years of my time to the SA:MP server and administration team doing all I could to favour the players, to do what I could to help out players and groups alike.
The hours upon hours of my time spent every week to keep things moving, to be there if players needed any kind of assistance with RS5 and the new scripts.
I have done what I can to bridge the gap between the HQ and players/groups by being responsive and active, I have done what I can to help get groups back on their feet once again within RS5 and to help new groups get started and in the right direction.
I somewhat doubt I am "closed minded" but if you feel that way, sure maybe I am when I grow tired of people saying things need to be done and HQ is ignoring them whilst the rest of the administration team and myself run around trying to come to a fair conclusion and solution to the matter.

As said multiple times, we do not ignore players asking for help or change however everything is to be discussed to ensure changes benefit administration and players alike to avoid issues and/or conflict.

Fair enough?

Yes see now you are communicating effectively like you should be doing in the first place. That is the attitude we need to see. It is when everyone just says 'it is what it is' or 'we solved this 2 years ago' that its like, we need a new approach. The community, not just administration, needs to collaborate ideas on how these issues can be solved. Which Cofiliano brought up in his original post. The more positive input administration would receive from the community, the more it would honestly help them out and in turn help the community out as a whole. Something I feel like people don't seem to grasp. Like I said, we are on the same page wanting this issue resolved, everyone just needs to come to a mutual agreement on how it is solved.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 05, 2014, 07:23:02 am
Not obligatory to help new players, but if you don't help, that removes your right to complain. Just /report and move on, don't complain.

C'mon Charlie, show me where the rule is "Officially" Stated?

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manoni on May 05, 2014, 07:38:27 am
C'mon Charlie, show me where the rule is "Officially" Stated?

Nothing has to be written nor being official. It's common sense, don't ask for what you don't give.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 05, 2014, 07:53:10 am
Nothing has to be written nor being official. It's common sense, don't ask for what you don't give.

Everything has to be.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CharlieKasper on May 05, 2014, 09:22:06 am
In real life people don't learn how to properly drive a vehicle by crashing into every pedestrian, lamp post, vehicle and house down the road, like new players seem to learn how being police officer works. They learn in a very secured and monitored environment with a guide next to them, and they must already have some experience and requisites beforehand (minimum age, documents, at least knowing how a vehicle works, etc.).
Don't speak about real life. Humans don't suddenly pop out of an airport completely able to walk, speak, roleplay or cause mayhem, being able to buy guns. They start with being babies where they learn everything and grow up learning everything about the world. If that is how it would have all went, the situations would have been worse than it is in our SA:MP community.

FYI, people without proper guidance when learning driving may actually cause a lot of damage (trust me, I have seen a lot of news about it in my country) in terms of properties and life.
Don't speak bullshit.
I still remember the day when I first joined and was introduced to police duty. I couldn't understand shit by what I was told until I tried it all. I was called an abuser too but thanks to being able to go on duty without having to wait for a passport, I was able to understand the duty within a couple of weeks.

That's the same as saying unless you help new player I don't give a shit about any problem you may have so you are making it obligatory. Anyways Devin basically summed it up and i'll leave it at that.
Did you even read what I said? I said you do a /report and move on. Let US deal with it if you don't want to. But don't complain if you don't want to help.

C'mon Charlie, show me where the rule is "Officially" Stated?
Well f**k my life, I can't find it!
I will try and make a novel about all the rules that can be found out using common sense, brb.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on May 05, 2014, 09:37:00 am
Offopic:
I'll be completely honest and fair here, and gonna respond to a fellow brother of mine, Xander:

Bro you're having an argument and attacking on Devin, who's (with all tho respect to rest of HQ, specially scripters) the only motherf**ker who actually did something for the entire Community since rs5 was released, isn't side blinded, you can go to him with a problem he wont just ignore it, supported most of the groups today, developed lots of things, basically with the help of some few individuals including me who took initiative, we turned Argonath rs5 who had an average of 8 players, into a server with an average of at the moment 40-50 players and is rising everyday. and no matter what he writes here that you prejudge and misunderstood, he does not deserve those kind of talks by anyone.

In simple words, from all the people you could have choose to start this debate with, you picked the completely wrong person for it.

It wouldn't be fair from my side not to react on this, knowing all the facts.



Also let me remind everyone who wrote 4 pages of argument about offtopic stuff in less then a day:
Please keep up with the subject of the topic.

Personal arguments, debate about things not related, debate about new players, this and that, please put your ego and urge to answer someone's offtopic away, and keep it focused on the subject of the topic.

[/b]


I urge the moderators of this board, to erase any future reply that doesn't stick to the subject( even if a fellow moderator does it, specially the tl;dr personal debates between few people, that are not defending any ground about the subject, yet just having a personal debate for a heck of it.

SUBJECT-STICK TO IT!
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manas on May 05, 2014, 09:37:47 am
I will try and make a novel about all the rules that can be found out using common sense, brb.

There was never such rule.
According to common sense, a police officer is deemed to have a passport atleast or a driving license. So don't bring your "common" sense here unless you can make any sense. Good Luck on your book.
If done with it, contact me i will publish it .
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Manoni on May 05, 2014, 09:51:31 am
There was never such rule.
According to common sense, a police officer is deemed to have a passport atleast or a driving license. So don't bring your "common" sense here unless you can make any sense. Good Luck on your book.
If done with it, contact me i will publish it .

How's that even related to what he said? Didn't you just read that we must stay on the topic subject?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 05, 2014, 07:15:21 pm
Offopic:
I'll be completely honest and fair here, and gonna respond to a fellow brother of mine, Xander:

Bro you're having an argument and attacking on Devin, who's (with all tho respect to rest of HQ, specially scripters) the only motherf**ker who actually did something for the entire Community since rs5 was released, isn't side blinded, you can go to him with a problem he wont just ignore it, supported most of the groups today, developed lots of things, basically with the help of some few individuals including me who took initiative, we turned Argonath rs5 who had an average of 8 players, into a server with an average of at the moment 40-50 players and is rising everyday. and no matter what he writes here that you prejudge and misunderstood, he does not deserve those kind of talks by anyone.

In simple words, from all the people you could have choose to start this debate with, you picked the completely wrong person for it.

It wouldn't be fair from my side not to react on this, knowing all the facts.



Also let me remind everyone who wrote 4 pages of argument about offtopic stuff in less then a day:
[/b]


I urge the moderators of this board, to erase any future reply that doesn't stick to the subject( even if a fellow moderator does it, specially the tl;dr personal debates between few people, that are not defending any ground about the subject, yet just having a personal debate for a heck of it.

SUBJECT-STICK TO IT!

Like I said, Devin and I were on the same page Cofiliano, we just couldn't communicate effectively with eachother. That happens, does it mean we hate eachother? No it does not, we don't even know eachother and it would be ignorant for either of us to just say we dislike eachother over something like this. He wants the problem fixed as much as anyone else, that is why in my last post I stated it isn't just up to the administration to come up with ideas on how to resolve the issue, but it is up to the community aswell. So we were both very much on topic over the issue that we both want resolved. I just may need to increase activity, so I can further understand your predicament that you originally wrote about. I do agree with what you posted originally though Cofiliano, we should come up with a way it is handled for Criminal Groups, like it is handled with the SAPD. Every group has its own right to temp-ban a person from that group. So why not implement something like that regarding punishment, especially for new players? It would help as people who are in these groups receive more guidance than when they are out on their own. So the system you brought up could be effectively used.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 05, 2014, 08:08:00 pm
Yeah, since this was mentioned.

How about:
/groupTempBan and /groupBan ( /groupUnBan comes with it, though )

Could actually solve the copban problem SAPD has as well. :)
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 06, 2014, 12:07:35 am
Yeah, since this was mentioned.

How about:
/groupTempBan and /groupBan ( /groupUnBan comes with it, though )

Could actually solve the copban problem SAPD has as well. :)

The actions of a player are their own responsibility, and theirs alone.

Banning whole groups at once will only lead to innocent players being caught in the fire; just because most members of a group take on a troublesome attitude, it does not follow that every single member of that group will be the same.

That's why members of a particular group that is no longer welcome in the community are advised to leave the group within a short time of the punishment being issued, after which bans are then (remotely) issued to individuals who choose to stay in that particular group.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Mr. Goobii on May 06, 2014, 01:41:35 am
My belief is that Devin, Murt or someone else would ban Svensson to quickly.  :lol:

No, but seriously. There is no point in having such thing.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 06, 2014, 03:01:40 am
The actions of a player are their own responsibility, and theirs alone.

Banning whole groups at once will only lead to innocent players being caught in the fire; just because most members of a group take on a troublesome attitude, it does not follow that every single member of that group will be the same.

That's why members of a particular group that is no longer welcome in the community are advised to leave the group within a short time of the punishment being issued, after which bans are then (remotely) issued to individuals who choose to stay in that particular group.

I am not sure if he meant the whole group.....or using a script similar to cop bans. My opinion is that no scripts should be needed, and instead let group leadership handle their members similar to how cops are handled with sapd. I agree with you regarding the whole group thing though, it's not really needed.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Stivi on May 06, 2014, 09:41:00 am
I am not sure if he meant the whole group.
That.



Anyway, back on topic...
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Dean. on May 07, 2014, 10:49:56 pm
Criminals should get banned from cop duty.
They can get police ranks if they are willing to be legal and not to rulebreak.

Calm down, Cofiliano, we all suffer from that.

Actually not a bad idea.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Miller786 on May 07, 2014, 10:54:49 pm
Actually not a bad idea.
I would suggest only regular criminals or people part of a group which is known for committing crimes and has been caught operating in the said group
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 08, 2014, 12:17:41 am
I am not sure if he meant the whole group.....or using a script similar to cop bans. My opinion is that no scripts should be needed, and instead let group leadership handle their members similar to how cops are handled with sapd. I agree with you regarding the whole group thing though, it's not really needed.
That.

My bad. You could have worded your post a bit less ambiguously though.

If someone must be (temporarily) removed from a group, why not just allow a group leader to do it remotely? Or are you talking about admins forcibly removing a player from a group? (something that is not our function, as we do not use our admin positions to decide who becomes a member of what player group)



Actually not a bad idea.
I would suggest only regular criminals or people part of a group which is known for committing crimes and has been caught operating in the said group

Technically the function of our current criminal score, but stronger. Why would this be necessary?
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Cofiliano on May 08, 2014, 12:55:44 am
The groupban story is pointless in many ways. We shouldn't even waste words explaining why is pointless.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Xander on May 08, 2014, 02:28:30 am
If someone must be (temporarily) removed from a group, why not just allow a group leader to do it remotely? Or are you talking about admins forcibly removing a player from a group? (something that is not our function, as we do not use our admin positions to decide who becomes a member of what player group)

Thats what I mean't as far as no need for scripts. Just let the group leadership in the group handle it.

Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Seskom on May 08, 2014, 06:11:42 pm
Just to remind, few years ago the members of all large groups became members of administration to handle their own group. That system failed terribly because of the leaders not being able to follow the rules while admins (Some of them have paid IG money to get others beaten up in real life, deathmatched and so on).

Therefore basically something similiar SAPD rank system/group system has been tested on groups and it did not work since the leaders were biased and failed to take action and broke the rules themselves.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: AK47 on May 08, 2014, 06:12:48 pm
paid IG money to get others beaten up in real life

wat
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Lustigkurre on May 08, 2014, 06:38:21 pm
(Some of them have paid IG money to get others beaten up in real life, deathmatched and so on).

haha wtf, details please.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Dean. on May 08, 2014, 06:47:12 pm
Some of them have paid IG money to get others beaten up in real life, deathmatched and so on

wat de fuk
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 08, 2014, 07:21:48 pm
I smell some interesting rumours...  :uhm:
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: eymas on May 08, 2014, 07:38:12 pm
(Some of them have paid IG money to get others beaten up in real life, deathmatched and so on).

wat
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Declan on May 08, 2014, 07:48:40 pm
Edit: Bad behaviour? wasn't serious.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: Devin on May 08, 2014, 07:52:28 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/ej34WvV.jpg)
  :rage:

That post was so gay, gave me aids.

An individuals behaviour affects the entire group, keep it up if you want Scotto to lose their Recognized status.
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: JDC on May 09, 2014, 12:01:03 am
Edit: Bad behaviour? wasn't serious.

A lot of "wasn't serious" behavior gets people into deep shit...
Title: Re: Enough is enough, the rules apply for all
Post by: CBFasi on May 28, 2014, 10:35:32 pm
There are a number of individuals who have voiced concerns in this topic, and I read a good number of pages (but not all).

Cofi has issue's with me and thinks that I should of been punished, but then I did know one thing compared to others, I knew when to stop and that I had not been the example that others expected.
However Cofi may also remember that I have punished a large number of SAPD and to make it harder for me, some who have been close friends, and some who still are.

However he, along with others here have raised a very very valid area of concern and that is the apparent difference in punishments to non-cops and cops.
I have used the word apparent on purpose because that is what you see from outside the admin team.

I cannot say how much I will look into this because I really do not know, but I am worried about this, and this means not only have to admin for the players, but also the admins.

One of the problems is interpretation of the rules, and this is something that Cof and many like him are thinking they have become experts on, and its also why for at least one group there are few rules, just guides. 

Admins need to understand the difference between dm, which is death without rp, and killing a suspect who should not be suspected ...
Its not straight forward, especially if the admin has not seen the incident, they do NOT have the logs etc that we had access to in RS4 due to teh way RS5 has now been built, they are there but its much harder and slower to get what is needed to prove who is wrong, did the suspect actually commit a crime, or did the cop fake it ...

As said I will be observing, and maybe even reacting, this awareness has been raised in the mind of the guy that hates law enforcement twats and abusers and has no fear to ban at any level for clear abuse.

I am locking this topic as you have made you point, you have increased awareness, and maybe you might even see me in action doing what I do best... piss people off who think they can get away with breaking server rules ...

Please dont do it, cop or civilian, you will get caught eventually !

TL
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